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Old 03-31-2011, 09:31 AM
DrewE05 DrewE05 is offline
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cold air intake

I'm thinking about installing a K&N cold air intake system in my v10 excursion,I've been told I would then have to upgrade the exhaust to a larger pipe,in order to get the better mpg and hp.is this true?
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:20 PM
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I hate to say it's &^%$$^&&...but it is....

If you do an online search for “air filter test” there is a lot of very good information. IMHO, the CAI units are NOT WORTH THE $$! Unless you are talking about a system that was specifically designed for a specific application there are very little hp/tq gains actually achieved in a street use vehicle and there are very few docs that these mfg’s can produce that actually show an increase in hp/tq in the power-band range of a relatively stock street vehicle.

I would avoid oil impregnated filters. While they have their purpose in off-road applications, Ford/GM/Dodge all have “watch-out” bulletins where the oil has contaminated intake sensors. - they even have a training video for the tech's on this (flatratetech.com) .

If you look at the flow data, WIX HP filters flow 98+% of K&N and have a much smoother flow post filter plus excellent filtering, for a fraction of the price! The OE’s have an excellent air intake system. What many view as an issue (is the plastic intake tube with it’s noise canceling design) actually increases air pressure. It is the same hydraulic concept used by fire fighters creating water supply where psi is low. By having the air cross the path at a 90 degree angle, the pressure is increased proportionally. Fire fighters use what is called a “4-way valve” or “Blake Valve” at the hydrant where the water is cycled through the fire engine (pump) and sent back into the valve crossing the water flow at a 90 degree angle. In this case it also acts as a sound canceling device! At low speeds, this can reduce the flow a tad (which is what most “feel”), but in terms of peak hp/tq, a good high flow filter is all that is needed. You can use a WIX OEM HP replacement filter in the OEM plastic manifold box and either remove the plastic tube and replace it with a piece of pipe/hose, etc or remove the tube completely and replace the tube by building an air ram type intake into the air box manifold (where the pipe use to attach)- make sure it terminates above the fan shroud to avoid water intake or fan induced pulsations.

Now with regards to increasing mpg.....instaling a less restrictive muffler/resonator will help but IMHO it is unlikely you would see more than 1 mpg difference as the most restriction is at the acts...and you can't touch those for 8 years unless they fail.


Lets chat about programmers- this is probably your best solution....

With regards to “Chips” and “Tuners”, years ago it was the best that most could do to enhance the ignition timing, fuel curve, transmission shift points, etc. It was (and still is) very important that a person verifies that the “Tuner” is ASE certified in both ECM and Transmission programming and IMHO be have current certification by the OEM whose vehicle you want to modify. There are plenty of persons who advertise their programs to be the best and even offer custom tunes, but in all reality, very few actually have credentials in these areas- but that’s not to say that some of these “geniuses” haven’t really caused damage to a few vehicles- just jump over to flatratetech.com and read just some of the comments from the MSE techs!. Perhaps what is equally important is the parameters that can be adjusted are set by the oem vehicle software…so there is really no “magic” in what they are doing anyway. Now about this new marketing hype that if you have a CAI you need a custom program………….hogwash!!!!!! The oem software system is designed to adjust the fuel mixture up to 10%.......that’s more than enough to handle fuel mixture adjustments up to 7,000 foot elevation change! (for high elevations 8,000+ there are oem software programs for those specific applications) The 5.4 V8 for example if close to stock can only suck in a maximum of 480 cfm and a flat panel filter will flow 500 cfm, there is simply no way any CAI on a relatively stock engine can increase the air flow enough to exceed the ECM’s ability to adjust and maintain the correct fuel mixture. The only reason for the “custom” program to support the CAI is because the design is poor resulting in false readings from the air intake sensors, etc….period! If you look at the dyno charts from many of these supposed HP/TQ increases, they are typically around 5%-7% at peak rpm ranges…….guess what, 5% is a standard deviation even amoungst mfg dynos and the most important item is……these “expert tuners” (at least most) do not have or choose not to test their results (in comparison to the oem intakes) during actual vehicle motion (or simulation- such as a wind tunnel) as the oems do. What many view as an issue (is the plastic intake tube with it’s noise canceling design) actually increases air pressure. It is the same hydraulic concept used by fire fighters creating water supply where psi is low. By having the air cross the path at a 90 degree angle, the pressure is increased proportionally. Fire fighters use what is called a “4-way valve” or “Blake Valve” at the hydrant where the water is cycled through the fire engine (pump) and sent back into the valve crossing the water flow at a 90 degree angle. In this case it also acts as a sound canceling device! At low speeds, this can reduce the flow a tad (which is what most “feel”), but in terms of peak hp/tq, a good high flow filter is all that is needed.

IMHO, if you live near any major city there are excellent tuning specialist with dynos who for the same price (if not less) will tune your vehicle taking into consideration your specific needs including environmental conditions, for your specific vehicle. IMHO, the best bang for the buck!
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DrewE05 View Post
I'm thinking about installing a K&N cold air intake system in my v10 excursion, I’ve been told I would then have to upgrade the exhaust to a larger pipe, in order to get the better mpg and hp.is this true?
Let me give you the facts less the opinions from company that does this every day. Every intake system K&N produces is tested for performance increase on multiple vehicles, Each of these vehicle is 100% stock. This does not been there is nothing to gain from changing the exhaust or adding a programmer.

The truth of the matter is that when you reduce the restriction on the intake side and allow the engine to breath more efficiently the net result is horsepower. Your MPG increase will vary because there are many factors that contribute to the overall outcome such as the how far off the factory program is, tire press, driving conditions, driving style, ect. Ultimately your mileage increase will depend on how inefficient your engine is running to begin with.



The first steps to getting your engine more efficient is to increase the intake efficiency then most people decrease the back pressure in their exhaust by installing a cat back system. These are typical done first to because when you get more air in you want to get more air out, Then you may want to consider putting programmer on. The reason I say this is because you want to make sure your fuel delivery is matched to your air flow. If you do it the other way around it hard to say what you’re going to get.

Again with a K&N system you will get a performance increase on a stock vehicle, your mileage is hard to say since there isn't a repeatble test platform. But more often then not you will see an increase. I personally picked up 1mpg.

What year is your excursion?

If you have further questions feel free to contact my customer support team 1800-858-3333 or send me a PM.
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Old 04-21-2011, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RPelkey View Post
Let me give you the facts less the opinions from company that does this every day. Every intake system K&N produces is tested for performance increase on multiple vehicles, Each of these vehicle is 100% stock. This does not been there is nothing to gain from changing the exhaust or adding a programmer.

The truth of the matter is that when you reduce the restriction on the intake side and allow the engine to breath more efficiently the net result is horsepower. Your MPG increase will vary because there are many factors that contribute to the overall outcome such as the how far off the factory program is, tire press, driving conditions, driving style, ect. Ultimately your mileage increase will depend on how inefficient your engine is running to begin with.



The first steps to getting your engine more efficient is to increase the intake efficiency then most people decrease the back pressure in their exhaust by installing a cat back system. These are typical done first to because when you get more air in you want to get more air out, Then you may want to consider putting programmer on. The reason I say this is because you want to make sure your fuel delivery is matched to your air flow. If you do it the other way around it hard to say what youíre going to get.

Again with a K&N system you will get a performance increase on a stock vehicle, your mileage is hard to say since there isn't a repeatble test platform. But more often then not you will see an increase. I personally picked up 1mpg.

What year is your excursion?

If you have further questions feel free to contact my customer support team 1800-858-3333 or send me a PM.
There is no doubt that K&N can show their filter will flow 900 CFM...but, lets take a look at science and engine demands......and forget the marketing hype for a minute.....

5.4 CID engine
Max RPM 5500
Assuming a volumetric efficiency of 90% (this is race car level- most stock oem engines are around 85%)
The max CFM the engine could possibly intake is 471 CFM
The oem flat panel filter is designed to flow 500 cfm
so....even if I put 2 K&N air filters on that combined flow 1800 cfm....the engine will still only suck in 471 cfm at full throttle at 5500 rpm.
What have I gained...nothing.
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:33 AM
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There is no doubt that K&N can show their filter will flow 900 CFM...but, lets take a look at science and engine demands......and forget the marketing hype for a minute.....

5.4 CID engine
Max RPM 5500
Assuming a volumetric efficiency of 90% (this is race car level- most stock oem engines are around 85%)
The max CFM the engine could possibly intake is 471 CFM
The oem flat panel filter is designed to flow 500 cfm
so....even if I put 2 K&N air filters on that combined flow 1800 cfm....the engine will still only suck in 471 cfm at full throttle at 5500 rpm.
What have I gained...nothing.

Ok letís talk about the science of it.
In your scenario you are assuming that the engine and all engines run at 85% VE and there is no room for improvement. You are also assuming the factory air box assembly flow in excess of the engines requirements. Unfortunately the OE air box assemblies do not flow more are than the vehicle can draw in, and any time you can improve an engines VE you will see an increase in performance and potentially mileage.

So letís look at the F150 Filter. The factory filter in your scenario flows around 500 CFM. Our filter for the same application flows 783 CFM @1.5in H2O. So obviously our filter flows more air. The problem with your theory is that the factory air box assembly does not flow the same as the filter by itself when it is installed. In fact the CFM drops of approximately 30 percent when you put the filter in the air box. Therefore when you install a filter that flows better and is less restrictive you will see an increase in HP and Volumetric Efficiency. For the record we flow the filters by themselves, and we flow the complete assemblies.

When you replace the factory intake system with ours which is considerably better flowing than the factory you will receive an estimated 12.45hp increase and better throttle response. Now that you have been supplied all the information you can now see why an intake system would be beneficial.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:46 PM
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Ok let’s talk about the science of it.
In your scenario you are assuming that the engine and all engines run at 85% VE and there is no room for improvement. You are also assuming the factory air box assembly flow in excess of the engines requirements. Unfortunately the OE air box assemblies do not flow more are than the vehicle can draw in, and any time you can improve an engines VE you will see an increase in performance and potentially mileage.

So let’s look at the F150 Filter. The factory filter in your scenario flows around 500 CFM. Our filter for the same application flows 783 CFM @1.5in H2O. So obviously our filter flows more air. The problem with your theory is that the factory air box assembly does not flow the same as the filter by itself when it is installed. In fact the CFM drops of approximately 30 percent when you put the filter in the air box. Therefore when you install a filter that flows better and is less restrictive you will see an increase in HP and Volumetric Efficiency. For the record we flow the filters by themselves, and we flow the complete assemblies.

When you replace the factory intake system with ours which is considerably better flowing than the factory you will receive an estimated 12.45hp increase and better throttle response. Now that you have been supplied all the information you can now see why an intake system would be beneficial.
Again...a falsified repeat of the most basic standard and formula...as stated even if we calculate at 90%+ (this is normal aspirated racing engine), the engine and cannot suck in more that the spec...sorry just basic physics here.

In regards to your dyno...again, dynos vary by 5% (or more) and when K&N does it comparison it is not in a wind tunnel testing center (as the oem's use to measure and determine the exact airflow that is actuall traveling through the system and into the engine) but at a conventional dyno. If a wind tunnel testing center was used the difference between the 2 (because of the oem "4-way valve design") would be negligible....just basic physics here. BTW, there is such a center in El Segundo California- that GM, Chrysler (use to) and Ford use.

Even HRM did a whole write-up & Tv show on the inaccuracies/variations of dynos....not just of the types and the operators, locations, etc- personally I was very surprised that they did it!

BTW, the HP increase you speak of...on a 5.4 300 hp, that's less than 5% increase.......Hmmmm, even less than the standard 5% variation.


all of this aside.....I built a true ram air intake (based upon the 1960's hemi style) and ran consecutive accel analysis comparions with side by side testing to a vehicle with a K&N system (new..out of the box) and the ford OEM...long story short........ depending on the actual vehicle speed (20 mph increments up to 85 mph) , both the OEM & ram air out performed the K&N in the majority of segments but........the difference was so slight in the side-by-side comparisions and was absolutlely speed/temp/humidity determinent....basically that 5% dyno variation factor......call it a wash.

$ for $...I can take the $200 for the K&N system (not pose potential documented damage and warranty issues to my vehicle), and produce real documentable performance gains in comparision.
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Old 06-01-2011, 08:48 AM
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$ for $...I can take the $200 for the K&N system (not pose potential documented damage and warranty issues to my vehicle), and produce real documentable performance gains in comparision.
Thanks for clearing up alot of doubts.
Am I right in saying if your engine is stock. all the new induction kit is going to do is give you a bit more noise. It can only be beneficial if you are going to and serious upgrades to tune your engine
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Old 06-01-2011, 01:11 PM
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Thanks for clearing up alot of doubts.
Am I right in saying if your engine is stock. all the new induction kit is going to do is give you a bit more noise. It can only be beneficial if you are going to and serious upgrades to tune your engine
In summary, yes. The 5.4 V8 for example has a max CFM requirement of 480 cfm (at 100% throttle & redline). The oem panel filter will flow 500 cfm (by all of the industry accepted formulas).
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:42 AM
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Thanks for clearing up alot of doubts.
Am I right in saying if your engine is stock. all the new induction kit is going to do is give you a bit more noise. It can only be beneficial if you are going to and serious upgrades to tune your engine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechkid View Post
In summary, yes. The 5.4 V8 for example has a max CFM requirement of 480 cfm (at 100% throttle & redline). The oem panel filter will flow 500 cfm (by all of the industry accepted formulas).
You guys can run all your bench top math you want but its been proven time and time again not only by K&N but other intake manufactures aswell that the OE intake system are restictive and turbulent. Therefore when you reduce the restriction on the intake side and remove the turbulence you will create more horsepower. For example the factor air box/intake track will reduce the flow on the paper filter or an aftermarket filter 30% this is FACT. You may not like it but real world testing show you will have to accept that not all things on paper pencil out.

Also not if the factory air box and Intake track is so effeicent why do many OEMS offer aftermarket intake systems of ther own, for example( Ford,TRD, Dodge........ (Don't come back with they want the aftermarket dollar.)


Further more Beech kid, Its obvious you have an axe to grind with K&N, feel free to call me I am more than willing to listen, and discuss you past problems.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RPelkey View Post
You guys can run all your bench top math you want but its been proven time and time again not only by K&N but other intake manufactures aswell that the OE intake system are restictive and turbulent. Therefore when you reduce the restriction on the intake side and remove the turbulence you will create more horsepower. For example the factor air box/intake track will reduce the flow on the paper filter or an aftermarket filter 30% this is FACT. You may not like it but real world testing show you will have to accept that not all things on paper pencil out.

Also not if the factory air box and Intake track is so effeicent why do many OEMS offer aftermarket intake systems of ther own, for example( Ford,TRD, Dodge........ (Don't come back with they want the aftermarket dollar.)


Further more Beech kid, Its obvious you have an axe to grind with K&N, feel free to call me I am more than willing to listen, and discuss you past problems.
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I do agree that these newer freeflowing induction kits can increase horsepower but i also agree that there is little or no extra hp to a stock engine.
with what im planning to do i will need the induction kit.

But what most people dont realise is that just adding an induction kit wont make much difference in the real world.

Tuning is like anything else, if you want big performance you have to pay big money....
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:08 AM
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When you make the intake system lest restive you will see a horspower increase. The misconception comes in that if we publish a 12 hp increase the assumption is that you will see a 12hp increase when driving down the road. This is incorrect. The engine uses a 3rd the horsepower its capable of making to maintian cruising speed. So reality is that the intake system being less restrivtive is going to allow the engine to draw in more air with less effor thus increaseing your engines volumetric efficiency. This simply means you will recieve better throttle response, more towing power, and depending on the conditions a MPG increase is possible.

I know it may not mean much from my because I work for K&N, but I don't believe in baffleing people with BS to sell a product.

I have an 04 f150 with the 57-2556 intake system on it. My buddy has the same truck same year but his is 4 wheel drive. We both noticed the throttle response improvement and he notice the power increase when towing his trailer up the grape vine. His truck did not down shift as early and he was able to go up the grade 10mph faster. He also noticed a 2mpg increase with his I notice a 1 mpg with mine.

Take it for what its worth but you can put a system on with out a programmer and see an increase perfomance and possibly mileage. The reason you don't need a programmer is becaus the MAF sensor and the O2 sensor will work in conjunction with each other to make sure your the engine runs at the Targeted AF ratio set by the factory.
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:18 AM
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When you make the intake system lest restive you will see a horspower increase. The misconception comes in that if we publish a 12 hp increase the assumption is that you will see a 12hp increase when driving down the road. This is incorrect. The engine uses a 3rd the horsepower its capable of making to maintian cruising speed. So reality is that the intake system being less restrivtive is going to allow the engine to draw in more air with less effor thus increaseing your engines volumetric efficiency. This simply means you will recieve better throttle response, more towing power, and depending on the conditions a MPG increase is possible.

I know it may not mean much from my because I work for K&N, but I don't believe in baffleing people with BS to sell a product.

I have an 04 f150 with the 57-2556 intake system on it. My buddy has the same truck same year but his is 4 wheel drive. We both noticed the throttle response improvement and he notice the power increase when towing his trailer up the grape vine. His truck did not down shift as early and he was able to go up the grade 10mph faster. He also noticed a 2mpg increase with his I notice a 1 mpg with mine.

Take it for what its worth but you can put a system on with out a programmer and see an increase perfomance and possibly mileage. The reason you don't need a programmer is becaus the MAF sensor and the O2 sensor will work in conjunction with each other to make sure your the engine runs at the Targeted AF ratio set by the factory.

Well im actually thinking about getting one for my truck (along with other things)
What do you recomend for a 07 F-150 with the 5.4l V8?
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:33 PM
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I have been trying to tell guys on here how restictive the stock air system is on these trucks for years , but most don't think they are , they even think with the addition of cam , heads , headers , they still say the stock system is fine , you just can't tell them the motor needs more air , thats one of the first things i change is the air intake....Lew
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:42 PM
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Well im actually thinking about getting one for my truck (along with other things)
What do you recomend for a 07 F-150 with the 5.4l V8?
You will want to get the 57-2556 aswell. This system hooks up with a throttle body spacer where our 77 series hooks up with the throttlebody in the factory location. The 57 series is 50 state legal and will out perform the 77 series.
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPelkey View Post
You guys can run all your bench top math you want but its been proven time and time again not only by K&N but other intake manufactures aswell that the OE intake system are restictive and turbulent. Therefore when you reduce the restriction on the intake side and remove the turbulence you will create more horsepower. For example the factor air box/intake track will reduce the flow on the paper filter or an aftermarket filter 30% this is FACT. You may not like it but real world testing show you will have to accept that not all things on paper pencil out.

Also not if the factory air box and Intake track is so effeicent why do many OEMS offer aftermarket intake systems of ther own, for example( Ford,TRD, Dodge........ (Don't come back with they want the aftermarket dollar.)


Further more Beech kid, Its obvious you have an axe to grind with K&N, feel free to call me I am more than willing to listen, and discuss you past problems.
1800-858-3333
No axe to grind, I still use K&N products on my 300 hp 65 Mustang, but I would never in any good conscious advise anhone to use an oil-filter on a modern vehicle- It is simply unethical.

Also not if the factory air box and Intake track is so effeicent why do many OEMS offer aftermarket intake systems of ther own, for example( Ford,TRD, Dodge........ (Don't come back with they want the aftermarket dollar.)

The reason is simple, the vehicles are modified so the cfm demands exceed the oem capacity...from a business standpoint, it simply does not make sense to rent the former NorthAmerican/Rockwell air chamber test center, spend another $1m to develop a new intake system for a small percentage of vehicle sales.

No one doubts K&N's ability to flow up to 900 cfm (or better with certain models), what is in doubt is how a vehicle whose engine has a max CFM intake of 480 cfm (such as the 5.4 stock), equipped with a $1 million designed intake system capably of flowing 500 cfm.....throw on a 900 cfm air intake system and make more hp & tq- K&N does not use a wind tunnel based dyno to test or even do a comparison test of its & the oem system, which is the only way to demonstrate these gains.

Heck, even the WIX HP series in independent testing demonstrates smoother post filtering flow patterns when compared to K&N.

and that 12 hp you mention, that is a standard dyno deviation (up to 5%) , in this case on a 300 hp 5.4, that equates to about 4%.

Now, if you check out my pics, you will see my "Ram-Air" system I personally built- and gues what- it actually works!

No axe to grind, just scientifically proven facts- no marketing, not hype.
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:17 PM
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Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Misc. > Air Intakes, Air Filters & Ram Air

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