Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Performance, Engines & Troubleshooting > Small Block V8 (221, 260, 289, 5.0/302, 5.8/351W)
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 03-08-2011, 12:10 PM
ChrisAdams ChrisAdams is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,393
ChrisAdams is starting off with a positive reputation.
221-260 balancer timing mark question

Hello, does anyone have a picture of a STOCK 221-260 timing mark on the timing cover with the SOLID harmonic balancer?
Not the two piece with the rubber separator, but the one piece with the single timing ‘bump’.
A 221 harmonic balancer like the one I am using is being sold on e-bay at this moment.
1962 1963 FORD 221 CID HARMONIC BALANCER - eBay (item 180599254896 end time Mar-10-11 11:00:46 PST)

My 63 Ranchero has a 66 289 block, with C4, but the harmonic balancer is from the original 260, the factory motor.
The timing case is off a 77 302, by the number.
Thus I have no timing mark on the case.
It seems the 221 and 260 early productions had a timing tab on the engine rather than the balancer, like the 6 cylinder from the same era.
I need to see a picture of a stock unit, so I can fabricate something that will work.
I could possibly change the Harmonic balancer to a newer one, a 3 hole from the same era (66) as the block, but I would still have to fabricate a timing mark for the 77 timing case.
Plus, the triple pulley is VERY heavy, so if I added a heavier later harmonic balancer to the heavy pulley I would be adding a lot of drag weight. The stock balancer is fairly light.
I would rather just get a picture showing the relative location of the mark before I determine tdc and make something to work as a timing mark with degrees.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-08-2011, 04:49 PM
Beanscoot Beanscoot is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 1,509
Beanscoot is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Beanscoot is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
The solid, one piece unit is not a harmonic damper, it is merely a pulley adapter. It was only used on the 221 small block. Also, the imbalances of the 221 and 260 are a little different from the 289/302.

When I get a chance, I can take a couple pictures of a stock 221 and 260 in my storage. But they are a bit buried so I don't promise to be quick.

The heavy cast iron pulley actually won't add that much drag. The diameter is not large so it is easy to spin up, plus at steady speed it will have no extra power consumption.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-09-2011, 10:07 AM
ChrisAdams ChrisAdams is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,393
ChrisAdams is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanscoot View Post
The solid, one piece unit is not a harmonic damper, it is merely a pulley adapter. It was only used on the 221 small block. Also, the imbalances of the 221 and 260 are a little different from the 289/302.

When I get a chance, I can take a couple pictures of a stock 221 and 260 in my storage. But they are a bit buried so I don't promise to be quick.

The heavy cast iron pulley actually won't add that much drag. The diameter is not large so it is easy to spin up, plus at steady speed it will have no extra power consumption.
It was used stock on 260's for sure. I've seen several over the years, and it's for sale as stock equipment at places like

Damper Doctor Online: Ford

where it is listed as a 'for260' as stock equipment.
It has a 28 oz counter weight and a timing 'bump' a small dot, thus it is a harmonic balancer, not a padded one, but it is a balancer.

It weighs more than 5 lbs, and the triple pulley weighs more than 5 lbs. The two together mass more than a 302 balancer and pulleys, interestingly enough.

I've considered replacing it with the correct balancer for the 289, a more conventional balancer with the rubber ring, but it would push the pulleys way out unless I could also find some very different pulleys.
Since the vehicle has a 'non-timing mark' 77 302 timing cover I am hoping to see a picture of a stock 221-260 early timing tab.
Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-10-2011, 01:45 AM
Beanscoot Beanscoot is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 1,509
Beanscoot is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Beanscoot is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Balancers

I am familiar with the Damper Doctor site. It contains such gems as these:

FORD 260 C.I. 8 62-68 FOR2891
FORD 289 C.I. 8 81-Up 3 Bolt Pulley; Reverse Rotation FOR3028
FORD 351 C.I. 8 62-68 FOR2891

Umm... 260 engines were not made in 1968, nor 289 engines in the 80s.
And 351s were certainly not made in 1962.

Only the 221 had the plain balancer. It definitely is not a harmonic balancer. Ford called it a "pulley adaptor" which is why I use the term.

In a two piece harmonic balancer, the harmonic or vibration damping is performed by the outer cast iron ring vibrating slightly out of sync with the inner hub. This tends to cancel out a lot of the vibrations. The rubber separator allows this asynchronous motion.

For what it's worth, here are the actual engine imbalances:
221 V8 was 22.7, 1962/63 260 V8 was 24.5, 1964 260 V8 was 26.2, early 289 V8 was 28.1, later was 28.2 (both within the ± .25 tolerance allowed), 289 HiPo 30.4. Early 302/351 were same as 289 at 28.2.

As you have discovered, Ford used several different balancer offsets. Also, in 1969 the pulley and damper were redesigned to change the method of piloting the pulley into the damper. They aren't compatible with the early types. Pulley heights changed over the years as well.

The 221-260-289 timing covers up to 1967 used a cast in timing pointer. I'll try to add a picture here:

...Didn't work.

Here's the link to the picture:

C2OE-2059-D
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-10-2011, 11:29 AM
ChrisAdams ChrisAdams is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,393
ChrisAdams is starting off with a positive reputation.
Thanks for the picture and further information.
It seems that the stock balancer (still technically a balancer, as it has a balance weight) may have too little weight.
My books, printed in 65/67 say it has a 28 ounce but assuming your information is more current and it is a 24 ounce, then I need to increase the weight to match the 66 ring gear weight.


The balancer on it is from the original 260, thus has (probably) 160 k miles on it, but when they swapped the 66 289 into it, they used the 66 ring gear and C4.

The engine does run smooth, makes great power, burns rubber going into 3'rd if you floor it,and can't keep traction through1st at full throttle.

On my 62 Mercury Meteor 221 (A really great little car) the timing cover had a cast in timing tab, with multiple marks, zero, etc. There is a picture of it in the 1967 Glenn's book, but with no reference to it's position.
The 'blade' in your picture would only allow you to time to one position, as you could only line the blade with the bump (now that sounds funny)
.
Dial to zero timing lights were virtually unheard of in 1962-63, so you would not have been able to time any bump/blade engine.

Thus they had timing marks, again, as my 62 Meteor possessed.

Well, if I go to a 66-67 Harmonic balancer it all becomes moot.
If I can find a way to match the pulleys.


This 63 Ranchero is more rod than restore project.
289, Edelbrock 600 CFM, too much cam, long tube headers, Edelbrock intake, Stinger ignition,over built C4, 3.55 Posi-track 8 inch, etc.
Fun as heck to drive though, if you like quick and loud.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-12-2011, 01:38 AM
Beanscoot Beanscoot is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 1,509
Beanscoot is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Beanscoot is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Early timing marks

I got to my storage and checked the original 221 engine. Strangely, it has the cast in pointer as well as the timing marks you described. Actually the timing marks are on a steel stamping that is attached to the bottom two water pump bolts. This piece of steel has five saw type teeth, with the teeth marked 0, 4, 8, 12 and 16 (BTDC). These are aligned with the pressed in ball bearing on the balancer-pulley adapter for timing purposes. By rough eyeballing, the engine would be at about 20 degrees ATDC when the BB mark on the balancer is aligned with the cast in timing cover pointer.

It seemed strange that two conflicting marks were present, so I consulted the early small block Bible, Bob Mannel's "Mustang and Ford Small Block V8" where he gave the explanation. It seems the cover was used for both the 221 and 260 engine, so each engine used its own different timing marks. He says that the earliest 221 timing covers may not have the cast in pointer used with the 260.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-12-2011, 06:49 PM
ChrisAdams ChrisAdams is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,393
ChrisAdams is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanscoot View Post
I got to my storage and checked the original 221 engine. Strangely, it has the cast in pointer as well as the timing marks you described. Actually the timing marks are on a steel stamping that is attached to the bottom two water pump bolts. This piece of steel has five saw type teeth, with the teeth marked 0, 4, 8, 12 and 16 (BTDC). These are aligned with the pressed in ball bearing on the balancer-pulley adapter for timing purposes. By rough eyeballing, the engine would be at about 20 degrees ATDC when the BB mark on the balancer is aligned with the cast in timing cover pointer.

It seemed strange that two conflicting marks were present, so I consulted the early small block Bible, Bob Mannel's "Mustang and Ford Small Block V8" where he gave the explanation. It seems the cover was used for both the 221 and 260 engine, so each engine used its own different timing marks. He says that the earliest 221 timing covers may not have the cast in pointer used with the 260.
Makes sense. This is the original damper from the original 260 1963 1/2 Ranchero. has the ball bearing.
The guy who put it on chucked the original cast timing cover with the timing marks, leaving me with a 77 timing cover with no place to put the timing mark, if I had one. He put in a 66 long block, using what he could from the 260, and supplementing from a wrecking yard on things like the water pump and timing cover.
Since the 289 and 260 (from the 2 speed) ring gear are different, he used mismatched ring gear and harmonic balancer, thus leaving me more or less 4 ounces shy on my front counter balance.

That assumes Ford was that careful with the weights
I've seen some shocking variances on 'standard' parts in many years of auto parts work.

The motor runs outstanding, good idle at about 700 (a little too much cam for below that, it lopes) and wicked off the line.
Still, I will get a damper with 28 ounce on Monday. I've had three people promise me one, still nothing after four days so it's to the Mustang wrecking yard day after tomorrow.

Going to have to time by finding TDC, then fabricate a pointer.
Darn it.
Oh well, got the headliner in it today so I'm ahead of the curve.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-12-2011, 08:09 PM
Beanscoot Beanscoot is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 1,509
Beanscoot is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Beanscoot is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Well when you pick up the junkyard damper, get a timing pointer as well.

Best to get a timing cover, water pump, damper and alternator brackets from the same engine since they have many different styles. So is the stock timing pointer from the 1977 cover missing?

"The guy who put it on chucked the original cast timing cover with the timing marks, leaving me with a 77 timing cover with no place to put the timing mark, if I had one."

Since the 221 style timing pointer attached to the lower two water pump bolts, it might well be possible to attach it to the 1977 cover and pump. Water pumps did change, but I think bolt spacing is the same.
Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2011, 08:09 PM
 
 
 
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aftermarket Harmonic Balancer/Dampner Suggestions? Becky_is_a_66 1961 - 1966 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks 20 01-28-2014 11:04 AM
Harmonic balancer BaronVonAutomatc Ford Inline Six, 200, 250, 4.9L / 300 6 01-03-2011 12:39 PM
unbalanced harmonic balancer? re54drider 1961 - 1966 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks 4 03-19-2006 09:05 AM
harmonic balancer MustangGT221 Small Block V8 (221, 260, 289, 5.0/302, 5.8/351W) 2 11-28-2002 05:52 PM
"Harmonic Balancer" 77f100 Ford Inline Six, 200, 250, 4.9L / 300 6 03-24-2001 12:07 AM


Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Performance, Engines & Troubleshooting > Small Block V8 (221, 260, 289, 5.0/302, 5.8/351W)

Tags
260, 302, 75, balance, balancer, bronco, fit, ford, harmonic, ii, marks, pic, pulley, timing, v10

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 AC1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. Ford® is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup