Help budgeting a 460 build for the street
#31
03-03-2011, 11:40 PM
You hit the nail on the head. There is no perfect solution. Engines are mechanical and will wear out and eventually fail. Just finding the parts that will get you home a few more times than the others is the hard part.
Yeah, it may be a trend for some (the one's who screwed it up for us in the first place), but my family has been in business for over 50 years, so I don't consider myself a "bandwagoner".
Yeah, it may be a trend for some (the one's who screwed it up for us in the first place), but my family has been in business for over 50 years, so I don't consider myself a "bandwagoner".
#32
03-03-2011, 11:55 PM
Yeah I will thanks.
So far the only thing you have shown to know is how to bash on Comp cams leading me to believe you work for someone that sells cams in competition with them. Most of what you post is half truths and outritght lies. Like the supposed fact that comp has a high rate of failure. FACT they have an almost identical rate of failure as Isky and crane. They use the same blanks as Isky and Crane and the same springs etc. Ok so comp uses sales people to answer the phone. fine and?????
you have shown an ability to copy and past and frankly not much else.
I have read through most of your posts and you give zero helpful information. You don't ever show knowledge that you claim if you actually built engines and mostly you post "go talk to xyz" If someone mentions comp you go on your tirade and get really irritated if someone calls you on the carpet for posting copy and paste information. You are not helpful,nor much of an asset to any tech discussion.
and as far as building before this trucker was born... yeah right. try again.
BTW I don't buy shelf grind cams, I design my own and have them ground to my specs. I have used comp I have used Howards and my fav used to be Reeds cams but most people are looking for a shelf grind cam that will do what they need and a lot of people like and use comp's stuff with great success me included. Isky is ok although most of their shelf grinds are 30yr old technology.
So far the only thing you have shown to know is how to bash on Comp cams leading me to believe you work for someone that sells cams in competition with them. Most of what you post is half truths and outritght lies. Like the supposed fact that comp has a high rate of failure. FACT they have an almost identical rate of failure as Isky and crane. They use the same blanks as Isky and Crane and the same springs etc. Ok so comp uses sales people to answer the phone. fine and?????
you have shown an ability to copy and past and frankly not much else.
I have read through most of your posts and you give zero helpful information. You don't ever show knowledge that you claim if you actually built engines and mostly you post "go talk to xyz" If someone mentions comp you go on your tirade and get really irritated if someone calls you on the carpet for posting copy and paste information. You are not helpful,nor much of an asset to any tech discussion.
and as far as building before this trucker was born... yeah right. try again.
BTW I don't buy shelf grind cams, I design my own and have them ground to my specs. I have used comp I have used Howards and my fav used to be Reeds cams but most people are looking for a shelf grind cam that will do what they need and a lot of people like and use comp's stuff with great success me included. Isky is ok although most of their shelf grinds are 30yr old technology.
no I don't work for any cam company......just been building egines before you were probably born.
If I was telling any lies about Comp.......then sue me!
#33
03-03-2011, 11:57 PM
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My uncle has a small retail business selling mainly collegiate athletic apparall and hates Walmart with a passion.
He always badmouths their quality and business tactics. While I dont entirely disagree with that end, I still cant get past the fact that he sells $35 t-shirts. Im not paying $35 for a t-shirt that will eventually be stained and torn, I dont care what quality difference he claims.
He always badmouths their quality and business tactics. While I dont entirely disagree with that end, I still cant get past the fact that he sells $35 t-shirts. Im not paying $35 for a t-shirt that will eventually be stained and torn, I dont care what quality difference he claims.
#34
03-04-2011, 12:07 AM
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Funny...a suvey on this forum alone shows not even one cam lobe failure on an Isky or Crower cam! Crane I don't doubt since the company terminated all of the original staff , filed for bankrupcy twice and is owned by a fortune 500.....
no I don't work for any cam company......just been building egines before you were probably born.
If I was telling any lies about Comp.......then sue me!
no I don't work for any cam company......just been building egines before you were probably born.
If I was telling any lies about Comp.......then sue me!
Questions:
1- do you have a link to this survey?
2- you didnt mention the number of lobe failures cited on comp cams
3- this must also be qualified by the number of people running Isky or Crower vs. Comp. If 80% of people are running Comp, there would naturally be a greater chance of having some fail for whatever reason.
4- How many people participated in this survey?
5- What is wrong with being a Fortune 500? Usually an indication that a company is doing well. I dont buy into the, "our company is better because it never grows" mantra
Fact is, you can use statistics to qualify any point of view if you use them to mask the big picture. Common practice by all the political talking heads out there. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Also, 18.765% of statistics are completely made up.
Lastly, do you have any non-cam advice on my build? If not I would prefer you let it be. Your opinions on Comp cams is dually noted. No need to continue to rehash and come up with skewed stats to support your opinions.
#35
03-04-2011, 12:36 AM
Whats the difference in quality though. I know, its probably the same. I agree with you, Wal-Mart is a monopoly that gets away with alot and I mean alot. What does this have to do with Ford 460's?
Anyways, Beechkid; relax take a deep breath. Dude your gonna die of a heart attack before you convince Monsterbaby otherwise or anyone else for that matter. He's just tierd of seeing the same old post with no cites over and over again (me too). Lets stick to helping this guy out with building a better street 460 for his dent. You never know, maybe Comp wont have the grind he wants and he'll have to go to Isky or Crane, but we will never know if he does'nt get some facts about building this engine and everyone keeps bickering about what cam company is better.
Anyways, Beechkid; relax take a deep breath. Dude your gonna die of a heart attack before you convince Monsterbaby otherwise or anyone else for that matter. He's just tierd of seeing the same old post with no cites over and over again (me too). Lets stick to helping this guy out with building a better street 460 for his dent. You never know, maybe Comp wont have the grind he wants and he'll have to go to Isky or Crane, but we will never know if he does'nt get some facts about building this engine and everyone keeps bickering about what cam company is better.
#36
03-04-2011, 05:41 AM
Thunderbird is right atleast on solid roller cams. They do NOT like idling and the lifters usually fail in not a lot of street miles. On low mileage hot rod rigs that get torn down ever few years it's ok.
Hyd roller cams do work a lot better but most guys don't have a lot of luck with them on 385 series engines due to the canted valve angles. They will run profiles not a lot different then a flat tappet cam so they do work fine but there is a huge cost difference.
Hyd roller cams do work a lot better but most guys don't have a lot of luck with them on 385 series engines due to the canted valve angles. They will run profiles not a lot different then a flat tappet cam so they do work fine but there is a huge cost difference.
#37
03-04-2011, 08:34 AM
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The Walmart thing was just a tangent on corporations. They may be evil, but stuff is cheap. There are some things I won't buy there, but when quality isn't an issue.....
The thing about Beechkid is this: If I say I am interested in X cam from Comp and he says, try this one from Isky and cites a specific grind that they have and that he believes they are better quality, then that is helpful. going on long rants about Comp and just saying Isky can grind whatever you want, then I don't feel that is helpful because, for one thing, I don't know what I want. I don't claim to understand cam engineering and to be honest, I don't care to know it all. I am one of those, like Monsterbaby mentioned, that wants to buy a shelf grind that fits my use profile. Im not a racer and I don't beat on engines. I want a nice street motor. Now, if Beechkid can suggest specific grinds for my application, I welcome that. By the way, the Comp I like is the Xtreme 4x4 262 (dont remember the exact part #) What other manufactures have a similar cam that they don't have to custom make?
So he can say all he wants about customer service, but to me it is good customer service to readily supply information about your shelf grinds so I don't have to make a bunch of phone calls regardless of how helpful they are on the phone.
The thing about Beechkid is this: If I say I am interested in X cam from Comp and he says, try this one from Isky and cites a specific grind that they have and that he believes they are better quality, then that is helpful. going on long rants about Comp and just saying Isky can grind whatever you want, then I don't feel that is helpful because, for one thing, I don't know what I want. I don't claim to understand cam engineering and to be honest, I don't care to know it all. I am one of those, like Monsterbaby mentioned, that wants to buy a shelf grind that fits my use profile. Im not a racer and I don't beat on engines. I want a nice street motor. Now, if Beechkid can suggest specific grinds for my application, I welcome that. By the way, the Comp I like is the Xtreme 4x4 262 (dont remember the exact part #) What other manufactures have a similar cam that they don't have to custom make?
So he can say all he wants about customer service, but to me it is good customer service to readily supply information about your shelf grinds so I don't have to make a bunch of phone calls regardless of how helpful they are on the phone.
#38
03-05-2011, 09:56 PM
Thunderbird7480 ignore beechkid for your application an off the shelf grind from comp is just fine for your application keep the oil changed and follow a proper break in procedure and youll be just fine. The d3ve a2a heads flow alomost identical to the dove and tend to work better on the street anyway btw they dont need hardened seats as they were introduced after the removal of lead from pump gas. I've built over 100 385 series engines here in our small family owned and operated race shop here in pa of those about 70 had comp cams in em no failures that I know of. As far as valve springs go beechkid comps are manufactured PAC american the same company that makes Lunati, Crane, Erson etc.... The key to cam longevity and any of your favored companies will tell you the same thing install a system cam lifters springs check pushrod length and lifter preload before you even think of firing it up if all checks out it'll last for a good long time. Most cam failures in flat tappet engines are caused by selecting a spring with to much spring pressure over the nose not bad cam cores. Stick to your guns monsterbaby you know that you're right. Oh and we recently built a .040 over 9.5 to 1 460 in our shop with d3 heads and a luniti voodo cam grind 61601 and made 453hp and 565 ft. lb. with some mild port work at the flywheel on our in house dyno.
#39
03-05-2011, 10:29 PM
One other thing forgot in my rant if you decide to go with stealth or rpm manifold I reccomend that you have the the heads port matched to the manifold as the ports in these manifolds are slightly larger than the ports in the heads and by slightly I mean about 3/16ths of an inch which most guys wouldn't notice on the street but we managed to pick up about 10hp by doing this with these manifolds and thats worth a hundred dollar port job right.
#40
03-05-2011, 11:21 PM
#41
03-05-2011, 11:39 PM
Questions:
1- do you have a link to this survey?
2- you didnt mention the number of lobe failures cited on comp cams
3- this must also be qualified by the number of people running Isky or Crower vs. Comp. If 80% of people are running Comp, there would naturally be a greater chance of having some fail for whatever reason.
4- How many people participated in this survey?
5- What is wrong with being a Fortune 500? Usually an indication that a company is doing well. I dont buy into the, "our company is better because it never grows" mantra
Fact is, you can use statistics to qualify any point of view if you use them to mask the big picture. Common practice by all the political talking heads out there. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Also, 18.765% of statistics are completely made up.
Lastly, do you have any non-cam advice on my build? If not I would prefer you let it be. Your opinions on Comp cams is dually noted. No need to continue to rehash and come up with skewed stats to support your opinions.
1- do you have a link to this survey?
2- you didnt mention the number of lobe failures cited on comp cams
3- this must also be qualified by the number of people running Isky or Crower vs. Comp. If 80% of people are running Comp, there would naturally be a greater chance of having some fail for whatever reason.
4- How many people participated in this survey?
5- What is wrong with being a Fortune 500? Usually an indication that a company is doing well. I dont buy into the, "our company is better because it never grows" mantra
Fact is, you can use statistics to qualify any point of view if you use them to mask the big picture. Common practice by all the political talking heads out there. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Also, 18.765% of statistics are completely made up.
Lastly, do you have any non-cam advice on my build? If not I would prefer you let it be. Your opinions on Comp cams is dually noted. No need to continue to rehash and come up with skewed stats to support your opinions.
2. I have seen more than (IMHO) cams in street vehicles made by the mass produced vendors (such as Comp) that have excessive lobe wear (not caused by excessive spring pressure) at 30,000.....Also, most of the fortune 500' staff tends to have turn-over every 7-10 years clearly impacting quality and there is also a cycle where they try to increase the profits...using chinese billet which are 1/3'rd less than US made). Also, if I have an issue with a cam and need an answer, i can call Isky, Crower or Herbert (the 3 I use) and get an answer right then......I have even been at the track (and other racers can reference their own similar experiences) where unexpected changes happen, call Isky or crower and get a cam in your hand in 24 hours with a specific grind to address the situation.
Try that with Comp.
#42
03-05-2011, 11:46 PM
Thunderbird7480 ignore beechkid for your application an off the shelf grind from comp is just fine for your application keep the oil changed and follow a proper break in procedure and youll be just fine. The d3ve a2a heads flow alomost identical to the dove and tend to work better on the street anyway btw they dont need hardened seats as they were introduced after the removal of lead from pump gas. I've built over 100 385 series engines here in our small family owned and operated race shop here in pa of those about 70 had comp cams in em no failures that I know of. As far as valve springs go beechkid comps are manufactured PAC american the same company that makes Lunati, Crane, Erson etc.... The key to cam longevity and any of your favored companies will tell you the same thing install a system cam lifters springs check pushrod length and lifter preload before you even think of firing it up if all checks out it'll last for a good long time. Most cam failures in flat tappet engines are caused by selecting a spring with to much spring pressure over the nose not bad cam cores. Stick to your guns monsterbaby you know that you're right. Oh and we recently built a .040 over 9.5 to 1 460 in our shop with d3 heads and a luniti voodo cam grind 61601 and made 453hp and 565 ft. lb. with some mild port work at the flywheel on our in house dyno.
#43
03-06-2011, 12:00 AM
The Walmart thing was just a tangent on corporations. They may be evil, but stuff is cheap. There are some things I won't buy there, but when quality isn't an issue.....
The thing about Beechkid is this: If I say I am interested in X cam from Comp and he says, try this one from Isky and cites a specific grind that they have and that he believes they are better quality, then that is helpful. going on long rants about Comp and just saying Isky can grind whatever you want, then I don't feel that is helpful because, for one thing, I don't know what I want. I don't claim to understand cam engineering and to be honest, I don't care to know it all. I am one of those, like Monsterbaby mentioned, that wants to buy a shelf grind that fits my use profile. Im not a racer and I don't beat on engines. I want a nice street motor. Now, if Beechkid can suggest specific grinds for my application, I welcome that. By the way, the Comp I like is the Xtreme 4x4 262 (dont remember the exact part #) What other manufactures have a similar cam that they don't have to custom make?
So he can say all he wants about customer service, but to me it is good customer service to readily supply information about your shelf grinds so I don't have to make a bunch of phone calls regardless of how helpful they are on the phone.
The thing about Beechkid is this: If I say I am interested in X cam from Comp and he says, try this one from Isky and cites a specific grind that they have and that he believes they are better quality, then that is helpful. going on long rants about Comp and just saying Isky can grind whatever you want, then I don't feel that is helpful because, for one thing, I don't know what I want. I don't claim to understand cam engineering and to be honest, I don't care to know it all. I am one of those, like Monsterbaby mentioned, that wants to buy a shelf grind that fits my use profile. Im not a racer and I don't beat on engines. I want a nice street motor. Now, if Beechkid can suggest specific grinds for my application, I welcome that. By the way, the Comp I like is the Xtreme 4x4 262 (dont remember the exact part #) What other manufactures have a similar cam that they don't have to custom make?
So he can say all he wants about customer service, but to me it is good customer service to readily supply information about your shelf grinds so I don't have to make a bunch of phone calls regardless of how helpful they are on the phone.
#44
03-06-2011, 08:00 AM
That is very good point monsterbaby and I wasn't thinking about that as we have never had a problem with getting below the induction hardening on the first regrind but a competent machine shop should be able to tell. Thunderbird7480 you also didn't say if you were thinking about a standard valve job or if you were thinking about a 3 or 5 angle if thinking about a 3 or 5 angle it would be a good idea to install the hardened seats as these will quickly get below the induction hardening.
#45
03-06-2011, 12:16 PM
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That is very good point monsterbaby and I wasn't thinking about that as we have never had a problem with getting below the induction hardening on the first regrind but a competent machine shop should be able to tell. Thunderbird7480 you also didn't say if you were thinking about a standard valve job or if you were thinking about a 3 or 5 angle if thinking about a 3 or 5 angle it would be a good idea to install the hardened seats as these will quickly get below the induction hardening.
I havent addressed it yet because Im really not sure. I got the heads and they are rebuilt. New guides and valve job. Problem is, he didnt know much about it. So Im taking it to the machinist when I have him do my block to have him check it out. I will probably go ahead and spring for the hardened seats to be safe. I need to check him out a little more. He builds race engines for my brother in law. Problem is all of his engines are small block chevy based. So I need to make sure he knows these engines.