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  #1  
Old 12-25-2010, 07:49 PM
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Turbo Tech for Dummies

Basically, I've got so much crap floating around in my head I've got to lay it all out, and have some of it corrected if necesary.
I feel we need to compile information regarding specs on turbos, since a turbo is what will get you the most bang for your buck if you're searching for power.
For rookies, such as myself, there's a bunch of stuff that you need to know if you're willing to tinker with a homebrew system. A/R, Trim sizes, Compressors, Turbines, and whatever else...and what the heck it all means.
Sure, $900 could get you a used system that will bolt right on...but looking at pictures of all that up-piping and now that I am beginning to understand how forced induction works...why sheel out $900 for something with that much up-piping...when you could pay more for something brand new that works much better?
Here's a stock Hypermax setup, note the pipes running from the manifolds up to the turbo.
Click the image to open in full size.
Those up-pipes have a TON of volume in there. Lots of volume means more turbo lag...which is that lag time before you start getting boost. Why? Because all that volume in the up-pipes needs to be filled in order to build pressure to spool the turbo.
Compare that to these pictures of the 7.3 Powerstroke up-pipe layout.
Click the image to open in full size.
As you can compare, the IDI aftermarket turbo up-pipes have a TON of volume compared to the Powerstroke up-pipes.

As far as the turbo itself goes, this is the heart of the system.
The average guy should realize that A/R is your
indicator on spooling. Sure, it means something technical, but at the end of the day the smaller the A/R number the faster it spools in terms of RPM's. The larger the A/R, the later it spools in the RPM range. For a diesel, we're interested in a lower A/R for a quick spool off the line. The ATS 093 turbo is the same unit as the Ford factory turbo in terms of specs. The difference is Fordditched the ATS 3" downpipe and introduced a smashed downpipe to clear the cab seam in the firewall. ATS has an aftermarket 3" downpipe flange which is an excellent upgrade. The ATS 093 has an .84 A/R. The Powerstrokes have a 1.10 A/R. I can tell you that my Dad's '03 7.3/Automatic doesn't spool and throw you back in the seat until about 2800 RPM when you get hit with boost.
(On a technical sidetrack, with a bunch less up-piping. The stock ATS 093 .84 housing may not be necessary to build boost so low. With much less up-piping to create lag, maybe a 1.0 housing or 1.10 housing off a First Generation 7.3 Powerstroke would work? Of course the first-gen strokes used a non-wastegate turbo, but an external wastegate could be rigged)

A wastegate is a device that controls your boost, basically a relief valve.

You can adjust it to relief excess boost pressure to suit your needs. For example, a stock 6.9 should be limited to 10 PSI of boost with stock head bolts. You would adjust the wastegate for 10 PSI of boost. Once you hit 10 PSI, the wastegate releases the excess pressure. Simple device.

As far as compressor sizes go, I'm hoping others can chime in. I don't know what size is good for 6.9 or 7.3 liters worth of exhaust gasses. I do know the compressor wheels are measued in millimeters for sizing. But then comes trim, what is that?

Flanges. The turbo has 2 inlets and 2 outlets. One inlet on the compressor side for filtered air to pass through. After being turbo charged, the air exits the compressor housing in route to the manifold, or intercooler. One inlet on the turbine side from the up-pipes, and one outlet out of the turbine housing for the downpipe. Some flanges are flat mating surfaces with a 4-bolt pattern that some internet sources are calling T3 pattern flanges. Again, help please, what's that mean? A v-clamp looks like this. On the compressor inlet, there seems to usually be a v-clamp. The housing surface is tapered similar to an exhaust pipe out of a manifold.
Click the image to open in full size.

Oil lines, yep you'll need oil for the turbo. You can go to the hardware store and get some fittings to create a T off the oil pressure gauge sending unit. As far as the return line, I imagine you can just dump it back into a valve cover or something.

This thread is actually a supplement to my other thread, which is sort of a brainstorm/design thread...I'd love to build a system and I think once all the design crap is worked out, building can begin.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/10...up-piping.html

Please add to this thread, and maybe we can use it as a source for turbo specs. I'm not finding any specs on the Banks, ATS, or Hypermax units. Those are the 3 manufacturers that made aftermarket turbos for these IDI's, and specs are tough to come across. Sure, they may be scattered through various threads over the forum over the past few years...but they don't come up with a search easily.

This thread had some good information in it. http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/95...ooooost-2.html

This is Dave's engine, with an ATS 093 with the ATS 3" downpipe outlet. Just BEAUTIFUL!
Click the image to open in full size.

Here's a Hypermax unit, notice how it sits perpendicular to the firewall where as the ATS unit on Dave's engine sits on an angle...covering up the injectors and glow plugs.
Click the image to open in full size.

This is a rear view of a Banks Sidewinder. It sits fairly centered on the engine and seems to have decent access to the injectors and glow plugs.
Click the image to open in full size.

Here's a side view of the Banks unit.
Click the image to open in full size.

Here's a back view, similar to the picture 2 up from here, but this shows the bottom of the up-pipe.
Click the image to open in full size.

7.3 Powerstroke in an E-series van. The black stains on the up-pipes indicate a leak.
Click the image to open in full size.

And here are the up-pipes on a Duratrash. Same route as a Stroke.
Click the image to open in full size.

Up-pipes on a 94-97 Stroke in an OBS truck. Notice the expansion pipes, I read in a 6.0 thread that the lack of expansion pipes leads to up-pipe cracks. Supposedly, the first generation Strokes used a slip joint up near the turbo so there's no need for the baffles? This is a homebrew addition of expansion pipes.
Click the image to open in full size.

Here's another rear engine view. Seems to be another homebrew.
Click the image to open in full size.

Time for the interesting stuff. 7.3 headers.
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

They look cool, and the majority of the thread in the forum felt they would flow better. However, after learning about pipe volume...velocty doesn't seem to matter. If the gasses are flowing fast, they may not be flowing with enough volume to spool the turbo. Turbo spooling seems to depend mostly on pressure, not flow. Correct me if I'm wrong...since the only turbo truck I've driven is my Dads bone stock 03 7.3.





So please add links, pictures, and anything else you may find useful for IDI turbos, or custom applications with a good idea!!!!
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  #2  
Old 12-25-2010, 08:29 PM
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I have specs recorded/measured on all the ATS turbos, early banks. And the mods I have done to my 093ATS.
I can do a thread when time allows.
Up pipes need to hold heat, turbos are driven by heat as much as volume/velocity. I wrapped my crossover and gained 1lb of boost across the board. I have a 60-1 comp wheel so I get more air moving sooner also.

I would post pics but It says I cant for some reason.
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218/461 on the dyno. after 80k miles, wanted to make sure she was broke in.
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  #3  
Old 12-25-2010, 08:37 PM
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Good call on the up-pipe heat and wrapping with header wrap. The idea is to hold in as much heat as possible. I think also you can soak the header wrap in high temp paint too...if memory serves.

As for your turbo specs, you can post them right here in this thread to try and keep all this turbo stuff in one place. That's awesome you've got that information!

As for photos, are you trying to paste a BB code?
At the forum homepage, click on User CP at the top left of the screen on the blue bar. Then click on pictures & albums on the left side of that page. Creat an album and upload photos there. Then, when you want to post a photo in a thread, open up another browser window and open the desired photo. Underneath the photo, there are two links, copy and paste the BB code into the thread and your picture will come up.
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1996 F350. 7.3 PSD, E4OD, 4x4, D60, just starting....
1985 F-350 Work truck. 6.9 Diesel IDI, T-19, 2wd 3.55 Ford 10.25....Planning a fully built 6.9 with PSD turbo, ZF5, Dana 60, 5.13's with ARB's - Scrapped
1991 F-Superduty Work truck. 7.3 Diesel IDI, ZF5, 2wd, 5.13's, 12' x 8' x 4' stake dump. Planning a nasty 6.9 and Dana 60 swap
IDI's make me
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Old 12-25-2010, 08:44 PM
swooshcmk swooshcmk is offline
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I've got the same ATS 093 turbo with 3" down pipe as Dave and I have absolutely no issues with pulling injector lines, injectors or glow plugs off those back cylinders. Why does everyone complain about that? I didn't touch a thing on my turbo to replace the injection pump, injectors or glow plugs. And it's not like I needed any special tools. I used the exact same wrenches, ratchets, sockets and extensions that I used on the rest of the cylinders.

The picture from behind is misleading. Do I need to run down and snap a picture from the front right corner to show that the glow plugs and injectors are perfectly accessible?
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Old 12-25-2010, 08:51 PM
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Thanks for sharing about pulling injectors and glow plugs, I've never worked on a turbo engine, so I just based my thought on the picture and how other members have said it was difficult. The picture makes it look tough, but I'm relieved you say it's easier than most say because man that picture looks like the housing is right on top of everything.
Swoosh, I'm glad you posted because I came across your thread while I was searching and noticed you were looking for the same info last Spring.
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1996 F350. 7.3 PSD, E4OD, 4x4, D60, just starting....
1985 F-350 Work truck. 6.9 Diesel IDI, T-19, 2wd 3.55 Ford 10.25....Planning a fully built 6.9 with PSD turbo, ZF5, Dana 60, 5.13's with ARB's - Scrapped
1991 F-Superduty Work truck. 7.3 Diesel IDI, ZF5, 2wd, 5.13's, 12' x 8' x 4' stake dump. Planning a nasty 6.9 and Dana 60 swap
IDI's make me
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Old 12-25-2010, 09:27 PM
swooshcmk swooshcmk is offline
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Glad you found it Dave gave me a lot of info on what he needed to do to keep his engine together. I'm completely happy with my 093/3" down pipe. I didn't go as crazy as Dave so I didn't mill my pistons to reduce the compression ratio, so with that I'm setting my limit at 14-15psi boost. If I remember right Dave had trouble keeping his intake manifold sealed at 18psi and had to make his own grade 8 studs. I took his and others advice and triple copper sprayed my intake valley pan gasket but I kept the intake bolts instead of going with studs. I found that all i had to do was tighten up my waste gate a few turns and turn up the fuel and it'll make 14psi under load no problem. I didn't even have to wrap my up pipes. (Though I might do that at some point this spring just to increase the boost onset and try to get higher boost level at lower EGT) However at this point in time I believe an intercooler would be a big benefit. I had no trouble stomping on the go pedal and getting the EGT to ramp up rather quickly to about 1200* and I'd have to back off. So for now I've backed off the fuel a tad and run about 10-12 psi under load and it stays around 950* (haven't pulled my 30' travel trailer yet though which is when I see the higher #'s).

What I'd really like to do is tee in my tuneable EFI system so I could use it to log intake air temperature along with the boost level and EGT levels. I'm sure it's probably running ~250* IAT. But my to-do list is longer the my want-to list!
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:18 PM
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My valley pan gasket problems started when I went past 21 PSI of boost.
At the same time I also had exhaust manifold leaks start.

Once that was fixed, the leaks moved to the slip joints at the rear of the exhaust manifolds and the cross over pipe connections.

Trying to run over 20 PSI of boost sure opens a can of worms.

Out of all the turbo systems out there, the 6.7 system is ideal.
The air flow has been reversed through the heads, so the exhaust would be coming out of the IDI intake, right in the center of the top of the engine.

That would be rather hard to incorprtate into an IDI.

The next best system would be what the 7.3 Stroke runs, and I think it has good potential to be adapted to the IDI engine.

Just a bit more on A/R, something like a .85 A/r will give you more boost down low in the RPM band, but will also tend to over boost the engine at high RPM.
Enter the wastegate to control boost at high RPM.
One more thing, the smaller A/R will tend to run higher EGT's.

The larger A/R turbos spool much higher, let out more heat, but can also produce higher boost numbers at higher RPM's.

94 to 97 Stroke turbo's are 1.10 A/R non wastegated.
99 and up were .85 A/R wastegated turbos.

The only thing the ATS 093 system makes a bit harder to get out is the #7 glow plug since it is under the turbo and behind the return lines and injection line.
Plenty of room to get the injector out though.
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:06 AM
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theres no room between the head and the firewall for the psd setup, thats why the hypertec runs low. it would be a challenge and something you would want to build while the engine is in the truck. expect some long down time while your doing it.
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Old 12-26-2010, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sponaugle View Post
The only thing the ATS 093 system makes a bit harder to get out is the #7 glow plug since it is under the turbo and behind the return lines and injection line.
Plenty of room to get the injector out though.
I have this same setup and that GP under the turbo takes longer to change than the other seven combined. I did not want to move the turbo for being afraid of exhaust leaks and broken bolts. It can be changed without moving the turbo, but it is not fun.
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Old 12-26-2010, 02:04 PM
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I will agree with the time factor on changing that glow plug, but that is the only thing that gets any harder to work on.

Well, you can't remove the IP and injection lines as an assembly like you can on a NA motor either, but both are a small price to pay for that much extra power.

As for the no room, a 2" body lift gets you lots of extra room, where you need it.
I could probably get a 4 or 4.5 inch down pipe on my 86 with room to spare.
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Old 12-26-2010, 02:38 PM
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he was also talking about the hypermax system making working injectors and GP's harder to get to not the ATS system....
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Old 12-26-2010, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sponaugle View Post
Well, you can't remove the IP and injection lines as an assembly like you can on a NA motor either, but both are a small price to pay for that much extra power..
I got mine off assembled? Granted it wasn't as easy as an NA engine but it is still doable. And I didn't have to undo any of the line clamps either. I only had to remove the bracket on the intake manifold that holds the throttle and cruise control cables. Then you can push the entire assembly back (very tight fit) and *just* get the IP to slide past the IP timing cover. With the turbo the IP has to be lifted up first where as with NA you can lift the injection lines up first and then just slide it back.

But I agree... it's well worth the extra slight clutter under the hood. A few extra minutes spent working around a turbo is better than a few extra minutes just removing plastic covers so you can see the darn engine!
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Old 12-26-2010, 03:26 PM
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Though I did remove the fuel supply line from the back of the injection pump. Perhaps that was the difference? I've always removed that line from the back of the pump so I'm not sure if the pump/lines will pull out on an NA with the supply line hooked up.
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Old 12-26-2010, 05:47 PM
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Thanks for all the clarification on the Injector and glow plug access.
Pictures are really deceiving! But it's great to know that there is good access, sure some extra time...but I'd rather have the extra power and spend more time servicing the truck!
As for the Hypermax system, if you look at the picture under Dave's engine in post #1 you'll see the Hypermax turbo is sitting right in the center of the engine, leaving good room on each side for servicing. But as we just went through, pictures can be very deceiving!
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1996 F350. 7.3 PSD, E4OD, 4x4, D60, just starting....
1985 F-350 Work truck. 6.9 Diesel IDI, T-19, 2wd 3.55 Ford 10.25....Planning a fully built 6.9 with PSD turbo, ZF5, Dana 60, 5.13's with ARB's - Scrapped
1991 F-Superduty Work truck. 7.3 Diesel IDI, ZF5, 2wd, 5.13's, 12' x 8' x 4' stake dump. Planning a nasty 6.9 and Dana 60 swap
IDI's make me
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Old 12-26-2010, 05:47 PM
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