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  #151  
Old 06-29-2014, 03:45 PM
Bluegrass 7 Bluegrass 7 is offline
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Bluegrass 7 has a good reputation on FTE.Bluegrass 7 has a good reputation on FTE.
I have had varied experiences with coils.
Replaced with a full set of ACCELS some years back and lost all of them over a short period of time. Early on, thought the low price was good but quality was lacking as a lesson hard learned and costly.
Have lost several more coils over the 213k miles and learned the lessons of all this.
Any coil can fail but the Motor Craft is the best one having been in production and used on the assembly line since back in the early 90s.
The Scanner can show potential coil/boot failures or contamination in the plug well long before a code or CEL is set.
I just looked at mine about a week ago before state inspection.
It showed 7 cylinders at zero misfires and one with 51 misfire counts. Not enough to even be worried about but noted if it gets worse.
If or when the misfire counts change by increasing or decreasing, the PCM updates the monitors counts so keep this in mind.
If you power down the PCM, the count is also lost and would have to be rebuilt as the motor runs some amount of time.
Swapping coils is a lot of hassle and takes some time between changes to see if it is the one..
Then you could get fooled if a new coil or used coil is faulty causing confusion.
Best to use a Scanner to see absolute proof, make the change and be done with it.
.
Last coil I lost was about 3 months ago getting on the thru-way ramp. Had to run to the next exit and back home to change it as I always have a spare.
The thing is the coils live a harsh life in the location they are at.
Heat from the radiator, head and exhaust heat after shut down causes extreme temperature ranges. This cycling causes large expansion/contraction changes that breaks leads internally at the terminals and causes shorted turns in the winding by rubbing the enamel insulation off the wire where they move the most.
The shorted turns is what causes the intermittent shudder in OD by lowering the output voltage when it is needed the most.
It seems if the coils were cooled by separate means with airflow covers of some design, they would almost last the life of the truck by reducing the temperature extremes.
Operating in OD when the EGR opens, the air to fuel ratio is the greatest at well over 20 to1 when the charge is the most difficult to ignite.
A coil fault like this results in a misfire. As you apply even more throttle, the A/F ratio goes leaner yet by adding more air and misfire gets even more pronounced until down shifting takes place, the EGR closes and the RPM goes up, then the misfire disappears until the next time.
It clears because the A/F ratio goes richer making ignition requiring much less voltage from the coils to fire the charge so the problem goes away. This is why there is no code set. The PCM cancels the trouble code and CEL before there is enough misfire accumulation, before it disappears.
Since it is not a hard fault/permanent condition, the code and light is not set but the monitor hit counts the misfire record for diagnostics if you look.
A note here on the misfire count. It is in Hexi-decimal. If you want to know the decimal count it has to be converted.
The Scanner should tell you it is out of limits and too high as well so you don't really have to convert the number..
Use your computer's programs in the 'tools' section by calling up the calculator, then use the conversion function on the calculator.
Well this is the full scoop on it , not much more the tell.
Good luck.
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  #152  
Old 06-29-2014, 08:28 PM
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Dr. Dirt Dr. Dirt is offline
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ok, I'm having the same occurance. since I work at a ford dealer I have the opportunity to use the IDS scan tool. would I be able to catch this cylinder miss by watching a power balance graph while driving?
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2002 F-150 Lariat Supercrew FX4, 5.4L 2v, 3.55 LS, BFG All-Terrains, MagnaFlow muffler with duals, all LED lights, Pioneer headunit, Kicker sub and amp

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  #153  
Old 06-29-2014, 09:17 PM
Bluegrass 7 Bluegrass 7 is offline
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Should see it if it is missing when your setup to record it.
Using the trap feature should also trip it to freeze the data and show the cylinder involved.
And a look at the monitors should show the cylinder with a high count.
So you have 3 ways to see the fault.
Good luck..
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  #154  
Old 06-30-2014, 01:57 PM
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good ideas.......I'm going to look at those. also when I'm driving the truck the graph should spike down on the suspecting cylinder when it starts missing.
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2002 F-150 Lariat Supercrew FX4, 5.4L 2v, 3.55 LS, BFG All-Terrains, MagnaFlow muffler with duals, all LED lights, Pioneer headunit, Kicker sub and amp

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  #155  
Old 06-30-2014, 04:53 PM
glemons42 glemons42 is offline
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ok, bluegrass, I am trying to follow but the technical aspect is getting a bit beyond me, I just did a engine swap from a Windsor to a romeo 4.6 and found that the heads on the romeo are pi, before the swap had no issues in regards to this error, but now after the swap I did for a minute get the shuddering, I drove it very soft for a while very easy driving to let the computer adjust to the new environment and now it seems to be running very nice. far better then the old Windsor did. but anyways, should I go ahead and replace coils and all anyways? they are from the old Windsor motor.
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  #156  
Old 07-01-2014, 06:18 PM
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I did my tune up today at lunch. plugs were definitely ready to be done. I drove the truck yesterday with the power balance on. #1, 2 and 5 weren't dropping out completely, but were dipping down considerably. so I did all the plugs, those three coils, and the rest of the boots. I haven't been able to verify if the miss on acceleration between 45-50 is gone yet, but I have a good feeling about it.
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2002 F-150 Lariat Supercrew FX4, 5.4L 2v, 3.55 LS, BFG All-Terrains, MagnaFlow muffler with duals, all LED lights, Pioneer headunit, Kicker sub and amp

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  #157  
Old 07-01-2014, 07:26 PM
F150Dad F150Dad is offline
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Just to add a little more intrigue to the shuddering, I had the head gaskets replaced back in March. The truck was running perfectly with a combination of junkyard MOTOR-CRAFT COP's. They were either green or yellow tops, with the numbers prominently visible. I installed all new boots and wire as I installed them.

When it went into the shop (independent, former Ford Techs), they did not mark which hole the COP's came out of. Once re-installed, the shuddering started. Shop gave me a web site to order from that they have had very good luck with. They claim their COP's have/are "copper windings". Eight shipped to my door were under $80. So far so good. They have zero identifying markings, and came in individual white boxes. If they last me two years and I have to order another set, so be it.
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  #158  
Old 07-02-2014, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F150Dad View Post
Just to add a little more intrigue to the shuddering, I had the head gaskets replaced back in March. The truck was running perfectly with a combination of junkyard MOTOR-CRAFT COP's. They were either green or yellow tops, with the numbers prominently visible. I installed all new boots and wire as I installed them.

When it went into the shop (independent, former Ford Techs), they did not mark which hole the COP's came out of. Once re-installed, the shuddering started. Shop gave me a web site to order from that they have had very good luck with. They claim their COP's have/are "copper windings". Eight shipped to my door were under $80. So far so good. They have zero identifying markings, and came in individual white boxes. If they last me two years and I have to order another set, so be it.
something to make sure of is that this shop didn't break any of porcelains on the plugs. it's possible when they put the plugs in they could have put them in with a small impact or dropped a/the plugs and broke one/them.
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2002 F-150 Lariat Supercrew FX4, 5.4L 2v, 3.55 LS, BFG All-Terrains, MagnaFlow muffler with duals, all LED lights, Pioneer headunit, Kicker sub and amp

"You got to drive that Ford like it's a stallion."-Jack Ingram
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  #159  
Old 07-02-2014, 02:17 PM
F150Dad F150Dad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Dirt View Post
something to make sure of is that this shop didn't break any of porcelains on the plugs. it's possible when they put the plugs in they could have put them in with a small impact or dropped a/the plugs and broke one/them.
Thanks for the info Doc. They put new plugs in at their request, motorcraft only. Thanks for the ideas.
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  #160  
Old 07-02-2014, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by F150Dad View Post
Thanks for the info Doc. They put new plugs in at their request, motorcraft only. Thanks for the ideas.
you're welcome. I hope you find the problem. also, the coils being not put in the same place doesn't matter....it's not like internal engine parts. good luck
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2002 F-150 Lariat Supercrew FX4, 5.4L 2v, 3.55 LS, BFG All-Terrains, MagnaFlow muffler with duals, all LED lights, Pioneer headunit, Kicker sub and amp

"You got to drive that Ford like it's a stallion."-Jack Ingram
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  #161  
Old 07-06-2014, 08:42 AM
sgt.slaughter sgt.slaughter is offline
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Wow there is a TON of info here on this symptom/issue!!


I have a 2005 Lariat F150(5.4) no lift, just flowmaster exhaust, and AirRaid Intake with SCT LivewireTS(just purchased the other day)...


for about a year now I have been experiencing somewhat similar behavior to what people are describing here... before making my own thread I just wanted to chime in here and check if mine lines up with what yall are experiencing...

I never have jerking on constant cruise speed, nor do I get it when i leave a stop light at a regular/normal speed/acceleration really....

but if cruising along and then go to pass someone, accelerating holding the gas not matted but likely 3/4 speed so you get it to downshift and accelerate and hold it there constantly during acceleration... when this happens the downshift and pick up acceleration is fine... BUT once it wants to change gears again(ie shift 4th to 5th) I feel this giant jerk which seems form the rear and scares the crap outa me its the tranny ready to blow up... I dont drive this truck often but its been doing it for awhile and nothing has 'blown up' yet... no engine codes at all have output to the SCT turner since I've plugged that up either but I can replicate the jerk that happens anytime I need to...


Is that symptom something i should honestly start with checking spark plugs, and then coil boots?... I'm at the point of just replacing them all if its a 75% chance that will resolve the issue. Esp since the coilboots I saw were only like $50 for a set of 8... unless there are specific mfr plugs and boots i should lean to or avoid?
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  #162  
Old 07-06-2014, 10:16 AM
Bluegrass 7 Bluegrass 7 is offline
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Sarge, let me put it this way; If you buy a good Scanner to look at the cylinder misfire monitors (not codes) you will find the cylinder that is causing the misfires.
You can either look at the monitors or set up to trap the fault and freeze the information.
A coil, boot and plug may cost $60 +/- total.
The Scanner at about $175 + the 60 = $235.
For that amount you likely can solve the problem plus have a Scanner for future uses.
If you shot gun and wildly replace all coils and plugs and parts your in for at least $400 +, no Scanner and possibly still have a problem based on a hope action.
Think about it.
Good luck.
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  #163  
Old 07-06-2014, 12:55 PM
sgt.slaughter sgt.slaughter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass 7 View Post
Sarge, let me put it this way; If you buy a good Scanner to look at the cylinder misfire monitors (not codes) you will find the cylinder that is causing the misfires.
You can either look at the monitors or set up to trap the fault and freeze the information.
A coil, boot and plug may cost $60 +/- total.
The Scanner at about $175 + the 60 = $235.
For that amount you likely can solve the problem plus have a Scanner for future uses.
If you shot gun and wildly replace all coils and plugs and parts your in for at least $400 +, no Scanner and possibly still have a problem based on a hope action.
Think about it.
Good luck.


Thanks for the response!

If plugs at max are $12.99/ea(and thats roush performance...seem lil steep for a plug but that was top end I saw price wise at first glance) that's $104 for plugs...... never looked at plugs so not sure suggestions here....
+
Coil's @ $260 for 4 ACCEL Super Coil's...(these the ones people typically go with?)

lookin at close to $400 and thats no labor even yet which I assume if i dont do it myself ill get raped at the dealership for it... Anyone have any idea on cost to replace this labor wise???



*Just to clarify as well, when we mention replacing the 'coil' were talking the ignition coil and not just the coil boot right?... as the coil boot itself is pretty cheap as I see those for like $6/ea...



**your recommendation is to buy the scanner-> Craftsman Scan Tool - CanOBD2 for ~$160 right now....(Assuming there is no way to capture the missfires through my existing turner...)
then put it in test ID $53 module $10 and go and drive it regularly and notate the usual 'testvalues' for each cylinder... then go and replicate the issue and then cycle through the componentID's(1 for each cylinder) and see which one has 'testvalue' that is higher than before normal run?...
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  #164  
Old 07-06-2014, 11:48 PM
Bluegrass 7 Bluegrass 7 is offline
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Bluegrass 7 has a good reputation on FTE.Bluegrass 7 has a good reputation on FTE.
You really do not want to go with ACCEL coils.
They are made in China and have a high failure rate.
My cost basis was for one Motor Craft coil and the Scanner after you find out what one to change.
160 + 50 or so = 211.
You might even get a MC coil cheaper off the internet.
Good luck.
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  #165  
Old 07-07-2014, 05:39 AM
sgt.slaughter sgt.slaughter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass 7 View Post
You really do not want to go with ACCEL coils.
They are made in China and have a high failure rate.
My cost basis was for one Motor Craft coil and the Scanner after you find out what one to change.
160 + 50 or so = 211.
You might even get a MC coil cheaper off the internet.
Good luck.
Thanks for the heads up on the Accel coils... I knew they were made in China but the reviews seemed positive on the online stores for the most part so I thought thats what most were going with...

As for the motorcraft ones... which one of the 2 below is the correct one?
http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...ubmodel/lariat

1) Motorcraft 3L3Z12029BA - Motorcraft Ignition Coils
2) Motorcraft 3W7Z12029AA - Motorcraft Ignition Coils

*sorry for the newb question here. thanks for the quick responses!


Also what about these?
http://granatellimotorsports.com/pro...cks-412-0.html
*They seem to have 2V, 3V, and 4V options, not knowing which one to go with I just linked the 2V assuming that was the right one since I haven't replaced plug wires or msd or anything of that nature...
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:39 AM
 
 
 
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