We have all read gas vs. diesel debates and have formed many opinions on which is the best for our use and application. So the purpose of this thread is not to start that same ole tired arguement over again because if that was my intent I would just go to the V10 vs. PS thread and post this there.

But instead, the purpose of this thread is to share information that I was given so those who are on the fence as to whether they should buy gas over diesel or diesel over gas can make an informed decision either way.

While out and about today I spoke with a friend whom I've known for years. He is a gas/diesel tech supervisor who is employed by the fire department in the city that I live. He has been on this job for over 10 years and is one of the best out there that I've run across. I would trust him to do the job and have 100 percent confidence that he would do it right.

Nonetheless, as we talked for a while this morning, we started talking about the new emission diesels and how much diesels have changed in general over the last several years. He told me how the new Cummins diesels are holding up on their fire trucks, how they force manual regens during services and overall how well the engines are holding up. We both are big diesel fans and always have been, but our opinions are changing in some aspects. What was funny was the fact that we both are feeling the same concerning the use of diesels in smaller applications (pickup trucks mainly).

We spoke about the 6.4 since I just traded the one I owned about 2 months ago, and the new 6.7 powerstroke along with the 6.7 cummins.

What he told me next shocked me a little bit. He mentioned that he attended a conference/siminar with Ford (corporate not dealer) reps. that are involved with major fleet purchases. This conference was for major fleet buyers and shop foremans. He told me that he was also shocked to hear that the corporate reps stated that with the complexity of these new diesels (required to meet emissions standards) it would be more cost efficient and now and in the long run if they were to seriously look into the gas engine line up (6.2 & 6.8) for the heavy duty pickup and light truck applications. The only exceptions that were mentioned was extreme use on a daily basis. i.e. heavy towing on a daily basis where the truck would be worked extremely hard all the time. He stated that the Ford reps. didnt down their new 6.7 by any means but did state that it would be best to order the 6.7 if their application absolutely needed it. They also stated that the gas engines could do the same job for less money for normal fleet usage applications. One would ask why would a company rep. encourage a customer to order a cheaper vehicle? Well, IMO there are several reasons.

They include:
1. They dont work for independent dealerships they work the Ford.
2. They were speaking with large fleet buyers (this was the annual state conference/siminar that was for all government fleet buyers in the entire state)
3. They want to give these large fleet buyers the best bang for their buck so they can continue getting their business.

He also stated that the city is now converting all of their old diesels to gassers when its time for replacement with the exception of extreme cases. Then the 6.7 will be ordered. For the sake of time I didnt question what those extreme cases were but he said that upwards to 80-90 percent of fleet would be converted to the 6.2 or the 6.8 gassers because they could also do the job and do it well. One would think that the down economy has a play in this and I believe it does to a certain extent, but 6.7's would still be ordered but in much smaller percentages than previous non-emissions diesels.

He mentioned several factors that he and his peers (techs and shop supervisors) spoke about that really make the diesel engine in their pick ups less appealing. The main negatives were the new emissions equipment, the maintenance that would be involved beyond the warranty period, expensive parts, and the cost of operating a gasser in comparision to diesel. He mentioned that one of these gas engines could be completely replaced (new) for about the cost of injectors on the diesel.

He also has a diesel moble repair company and he stated the he recently purchased a gasser instead of a diesel for his service truck(s). Because of these same reasons.

I know that diesels have a cult following but as I've stated before concering the initial cost, maintenance costs, and cost of fuel; these engines are losing the stong selling points that have driven many pick up truck owners to have them in their trucks. Even the MPG gains that diesels used to enjoy with large margins have slipped away. As I posted before my 6.2 got me close to 10 mpg pulling my enclosed trailer, and the best mpg's I've read about from 6.7 owners is 12 but most were in the 10-11 mpg range.


As stated earlier, I'm not interested in starting anything, just trying to give some food for thought for those who are on the fence.

 

The city I live in converted from Ford diesel to gas 3 or 4 years ago. You hit the nail on the head with this one.

 

Great information. I agree with you're analysis. I have been on the fence for a while now about a diesel. Last pickup I bought was in 2005 and the cost difference between the diesel and the gas was around $5000 IRC. Back then diesel was either cheaper than gas or about the same, I don't recall. This was also before all the DPF, urea, etc. stuff was out on the diesels. I opted for the gas because I don't drive alot of miles a year and I only tow occasionally, but pretty heavy. Fast-forward today. Now a diesel option with auto tranny is getting close to $10,000 if you consider taxes and financing (if needed). Don't get me wrong, these newer diesels are more refined than they were in 2005, but at some point you have to wonder who can afford these things anymore. The newer gas engines have seen significant increase in hp the past few years and I expect that to continue very rapidly in the near future. I would not be surprised to see a 450 hp HD engine by 2012 from somebody. That's what stinks is that I want to pull the trigger on a new 6.2, but would be pissed if a higher hp 6.2 came out in a year or two. For people in my catergory unless you just want a diesel, it doesn't make much economic sense. However if you need it because you put alot of miles on a year and tow regularly then the diesel is still a better choice. One last thing to consider. I'm sure there are some late model Duramax's and 6.4's out there with some high miles, but the old argument that a diesel will outlast a gas engine may not be as relavent today with the complexity of these engines. I mean if the injectors fail at 200K and it costs the same to replace those as a new gas engine then I don't think longevity matters to much. Time will tell I guess.

 

Excellent points, this is why I purchased a 6.2. My wife and I are obsessed with powerstrokes of the past, specifically the 7.3, and we finally gave up searching for a low mileage great condition one after months of trying, and decided buying new would be the way to go. After learning about all of the new emissions crapola on these new diesels, as you said, the perks of buying a diesel for the average joe go right out the window. I am happy so far with the performance of my gas engine. It has tons of power, and I am a performance junky, so for me to be even mildly impressed at a stock engine is saying something.

 

I know quite a few guys (farm/ranch) That haul almost daily. Cattle & equipment - on & off road situations. Starting with the early diesels they have all owned them - but most have switched to gas. Same reasons mentioned above - fuel price, repair costs, etc. Most of these guys put 250-300K on trucks before they get rid of them - and the gas motors are just fine.

 

I have been saying this, and I get shunned for it a lot, but I feel like the diesel died when the 7.3 went away...that was such a good engine...

 

Same thing around here in western KS. Quite a few of the farmers have gone back to gas because of the problems they've had with the diesels and quite frankly the cost. Don't know if that trend will continue, but I do know that in the town I live in there is only one new Duramax on the Chevrolet lot and probably six 6.0's. With Ford it seems like there are six 6.7's for every 6.2.

 

From a Buisness point of view, Yes the Diesels cost more. However the guys they are selling to, are buy Large quantities of trucks. If they can get them to buy gas trucks based on the maintenace intial cost etc etc. Then they have a chance of them intially buying more trucks right off the initial sales based off of Lower cost per truck.

That is how I see anywho.

 

Thanks for posting that Front Runner!In the town I live in,The whole public works fleet are F-550's with V-10's.Not a one diesel in the fleet of trucks.I've got diesel in my blood and I have NEVER owned a gasser ever.It's sad to say but I agree with most of you in saying I think the diesel pickup is not king anymore.I'm still having a hard time thinking about buying a gasser but the more I hear about how nice the 6.2 is,It is getting easier.I do however like the fact that I could get in the gasser and just drive it,No worries about regens or Do I have enough Urea for this trip?Did I get good fuel?As much as I love my diesel truck,I'm just so sick of worrying about it.

 

Nail-on-the-head-thread

Add to this the fact that Ford is coming out with the V10 in the F650/750.

All the utility companies and other large businesses use V10's in F450/550 chassis-cab configurations around here. I mean, almost 100% of them. The only exceptions are the small businesses that for some reasons still think "diesel" and are probably getting snookered by the dealers.

I'll give a perfect example of the continuing shift to gas: My brother-in-law owns a small marine wholesale parts business. He used to run a 14' box truck built on an Isuzu NPR platform (mechanical turbo diesel). It could handle, maybe, 6000 lbs total before it was overloaded.

The engine was great, sort of. Two of these trucks he owned in succession, over 10 years. They needed turbos every 100K miles or even less. The first truck was a manual, it needed a clutch every 50K miles or so. The second was an auto, it needed tranny work every 60-80K miles. Plus, he could only afford one truck at a time, so he usually sent salesmen out with parts in their cars.

Come 2005, the last Isuzu was SPENT. Puffing blowby out the crankcase vent, it was definitely beyond the beyond at around 260K miles.

My brother-in-law started shopping around, actually stopping at a Ford dealer, and got a quote on a brand-new van, an E350 with the 2-valve 5.4L and automatic tranny. 4000lbs payload (and it can actually do it safely). $23K out the door, with an extended warranty to 5 years. He asked me about it, I said "go for it".

It's still going strong with over 180K miles on it. NO parts replacement except a water pump early in it's life that started leaking for some reason. Brakes, yes, nothing else. Regular maintenance, oil changes, tranny fluid, lube, etc. Nothing else.

2006 comes along, he has saved so much money on the first van, he buys a 4.6L-powered E250 that can take like 2500-3000lbs payload for around the same price as the first. Still going strong at 160K miles. No repairs, just maintenance.

Now, while the original diesels he owned were Isuzus (and before that, an Iveco which did OK), and you might pick on that brand, being it's really a GM/Isuzu, you get the idea. In his case, it worked out so well, that 5 years later, the vans are still going strong.

The moral of this story: The market has shifted. It started doing so around 2003 when the 6.0 came in.

Much of it is total-cost-of-ownership has leveled out if not tipped the other way, but there is also the fact that townships and counties and states are starting to look at "greener" fuels, be it propane/CNG, E85, or whatever, and the availability and cost of these fuels is low enough that a "gasser" is the way to go for them.

 

I think the market shifted in 2007. Up to that point there wasn't a huge cost upgrading from a diesel from gas. At least with GM it was around $5K and those diesels got pretty fair mileage compared to the gas counterparts. I mean the early Duramaxs, 5.9 24-valve Dodges, and 7.3 Fords got good unloaded mileage. Plus diesel was usually cheaper than gas. I recall people who never towed bought a diesel for the "mileage". I would laugh. When they started putting all the DPF, emmisions crap, etc. and hp was increasing every year mileage started to go down. I can't comment on the newer diesels with the urea injection because quite frankly I've only ever seen one Ford and one Chevy on the road around here locally. If you rip all the emmisions stuff off then you void you're warranty and if something breaks it's crazy expensive to fix. Here's the even more scary thing. By 2014 the emmisions will be even worse than they are today. I acutally had an engineer from GM tell me one time that by the time meet the emmisions standards for 2014 the exhaust coming out the tailpipe will be cleaner than coming into the intake! So now we have super complex diesel engines that have tremendous performance but have potential high maintainance costs. So the average Joe who needs an HD to haul some stuff around isn't buying that diesel pickup anymore.

For now at least locally there are more guys going back to gas. They miss the power of the diesel, but are pleased with the performance of the newer gas engines. I can't find any 6.2's on the lots, only 6.7's with $7000-9000 off on the windows. I think the new 6.2 is already getting a following just as the 5.4 and 6.8 did for years with the guys that had those. Pretty reliable engines. I drove a F250 5.4 for 80,000 hard miles and although it was a dog, it treated me very well. We had a early V10 that got absolutely trashed at our ranch and at 120,000 miles it's still going (but I can't say I take it on a long trip!).

 

I'll be the first to also say that I too miss the power of the diesel. Looking back in retrospect I really wish I could have kept my 2000 F350 dually with the 7.3, but it was going to become a money pit. I loved the engine. No, it didnt have high horse power and torque numbers like today's diesels but it was a pulling beast. I loved hearing the sound of that sweet turbo whistle. But the day of the 7.3 has long since past with the last new one being manufactured back in early 2003.

The trade off is that the new trucks are so much nicer and refined. The entire platform is so much better with the exception on the super complex diesel engines. I really wanted a new truck that I would own from the time it rolled off the dealer's lot, unlike my 7.3 which I brought used with 169000 miles on it. The engine needed minor repairs but the rest of the body was slap worn out, thus needing a ton of repairs.

Now, having purchased my 2011 brand new, I know what I'll more than likely face down the road because I've been the sole owner and I know how I treat and will maintenance my truck. I wrestled with the decision comparing diesel to gas, but IMO at this time the scales are easily tilted toward the gas engine.

I've owned a V10 in the past and I had absolutely no problems with it. I was completely worry free when driving it also. Just as I am now with my 6.2. But I was worried with my 6.4. Just too many things that could go wrong. One of my deciding factors in getting rid of it was how would I maintenance this truck after the warranty is gone. The cost of replacement parts are way too expensive, and for major repairs, it would cost an arm and a leg. When I took a look at the 6.7 my first impression was "WOW", what a complex piece of machinery that performs extremely well. I left the dealer a little disheartened because it seemed like complexity level of the powerstrokes just switched from 4th to 5th gear. So did the power output, but I favor simplicity over power. I'm not saying that the 6.7 isnt an amazing engine because it is, just not for me. I began to wonder that if the 6.4 costs 15,000 plus to replace the engine, how much would it cost to replace the 6.7?? I assume since its a more refined complex engine, it would cost more, but I could be wrong.

I went back and really begin to look into the 6.2. I was impressed with what I saw. The main innovative feature of the 6.2 is 2 spark plugs per cylinder and I can deal with that. Easy does it. No big deal IMO. No, it doesnt have the ground thumping power of the 6.7 but it's plenty powerful enough for me and it will get the job done just as good. After towing with it several times now (even as indicated in my earlier posts) I can truely say that the 6.2 does a fine job, and it does it very smoothly. I'm very happy with my decision to purchase the 6.2 and I dont think I'll ever look into the new pick up truck diesel again until I have faith in all of these new systems that must come with them, and some of the associated costs for maintenance and repair are reduced. But with the 2014 emissions standards coming, I dont think they will get any less complex but rather more complex.

 

At the local community college, which is actually pretty large, their facilities crew runs Fords only. Any F250 SRW they buy gets a V8 gas, at least from what I've seen. The ag program guys have a 6.4 CCSB that they use almost exclusively for hauling hay and livestock. They also have a few dump trucks that are 6.4s and a couple V10s.

I have noticed a definite shift in fleets going to gas engine vehicles. Many of the local companies run 6.8 or 5.4 in their trucks unless they're very large or always loaded but even then a lot of them have V10 F350s.

 

Looking back, that shift away from diesel for large fleets began around here on Long Island around, say, 2002-2003. I see many 2-valve V10's in F450/550's around here, far FAR outnumbering the diesels, and they start at around the 2002 model year based on the headlights and other nomenclature.

 

Kind of an old thread but PG&E our largest private fleet of vehicles in CA is ordering 6.2 engines like crazy. There has been over 350 of them at the Port of Benicia over the last 4 weeks all going to up fitters around there area for bodies. My friend who is a shop foreman for PG&E in Antioch showed me how a large majority of them are being converted to CNG and have a fuel range of about 300 miles. Pretty neat and the diesel crew trucks are going to see a lot of idle time all had PTO's installed with on board hydraulic driven generators and compressors. If Ford would have made the PTO an option with the gas engine I bet they would have ordered no diesel trucks.