I had a Dakota SLT+ before the Supercrew that I have now and would not consider a Chrysler product ever again. I put a lot of miles quick on a truck doing my structural inspections and the Dodge was the most unreliable truck I've ever owned. The bad news, if you have a problem there are no parts. They have to be ordered. Count on 1-2 weeks down time. I would assume that you would be looking at a diesel. The contractors I know that have them complain that after the truck has 50-60,000 miles on it that the thing falls apart. Mostly due to the vibration of engine which is considerable. If you want to get close to the same power with the Dodge as the Ford, you will need to order the HO model but it is not available with an automatic- 6speed standard only. The ride in the Dodge can only be described as brutal. I would suggest that you dive both and most importantly, check into the Dodge warranty or should I say lack of warranty. Not all items are covered. Any wearable part is not covered like brake pads, rotors, cylinders, Etc. While Dodge is putting some innovative ideas on the street they don't seem to want to back up their product with warranty or service. I certainly won't have another.
God! I had to wait TEN minutes to post so that I could hold my tongue in regard to Flash Gordons post!
To put it nicely, I definately disagree with him.
Here's my two cents,hell I'll give you 3.
Both are good trucks, I've driven both and currently own a 250 SD
2wd.
As far as which is better, I would say in terms of frames ,rears,and brakes that they are about equal.
Ford has stronger/sturdier rear springs-go to any livestock auction and watch the trucks comming and going loaded to the max,or pulling goose necks-while the Ford's/Chevy's will be sitting pretty level, the ones squatting will be Dodges.
So if it's going to be carrying serious loads as I assume it will be -then your gonna need a set of air springs on it- no biggie really though, as the rest of the truck is quite up to it.
As far as the diesel thing goes-BLAH,BLAH,BLAH - everyone's got an opinion-it's mine that the diesel engine has become more of a trendy statment maker than a usable working tool.
They are WAY more powerful than they need to be straight from the factory-and even this is'int enough for those who find themselves buying and installing the latest chips and mods,in order to "keep up with the jones"...lol.
Used to be you'd see the odd naturally aspirated diesel DOG workin it's rear off pullin and haulin chit-now you see a lot of mom's driving 40000.00+ dualies equipt with 300 HP turbo diesels,to their kids soccer meets,or PTO meetings...lol-must be nice to have money like that!
Auto trannys suck in general-but if you gotta have one then don't go Ford or Dodge-go Chevy (hey,I'm being honest here) the Allison is proven -the torqueshift is not-people can cry all they want-the 6.0PSD/Torqueshift is NOT proven.
As far as diesels go -way I see it you got 2 choices-go cummins or go gas. Gas engines are just plain more practical for most people,even the ones who think that diesels would serve them better. Cheaper up front cost-fuel more widely available-cheaper oil changes-easier/cheaper maintenance-easier cold starting-no fuel jelling,etc,etc.
Now don't get me wrong-if I were considering a new rig,and I were going to use it say for vanning horses to and fro all over the country-or towing 24-7 with 14000lb trailers,then I would DEFINATELY go diesel as it would pay for itself in fuel at 100,000 miles,and last longer as well.
But you average contractor,mechanic,farmer,housewife,etc, is'int going to drive that many miles in one year! Besides, lets assume your gas engine just blows at 150000 miles,(not likely)and it's 5 yrs old, you could still have a reman put in for less than the diesel would have cost you up front!
It's really,REALLY hard to justify the cost of the diesel-it's mostly used as a status symbol these days!
I had a Dodge 86'Ram 250 4x2 4speed on the floor-that thing was a BEAST. Only had the 318 in it. Wimpy motor? Ask the 40 ft dead trees how well it pulled. Ask 5 densely packed acres of them. I ripped the rear bumper off of it,wrecked the body,and bent the rear frame cross member in to a pretzel(from the chain)-but I never blew a clutch! Was perfectly road worthy after all this too. It killed 4 cars,including a caddy,before finally being put to rest when my brother fell asleep behind the wheel and wrapped it around a tree at 40 or 50 or so mph-trees got revenge-but he lived.(really broke my heart).
Say what you want-that truck FORCED me to respect Dodge.
If you gotta have a diesel,but tranny is open-go with the Dodge-Chevy and Ford use those pissy ZF's(like mine) which are aluminum cases filled with ATF, Dodge has a 360lb cast iron beast which uses GEAR OIL, like a tractor.
If you do decide to go gas-then the Ford v10 or Chevy 6.0L would be my choices-after that the 5.7L Hemi-don't know why,but as much as I like Dodge those Hemi's just don't seem quite right-just my impression-I've no experience with them-plus they are new and relatively unproven. The 8.1L Vortec and Dodge v10 are far and away better pullers than the vortec 6.0L or triton v10 on paper-but I would'int wan't the gas penalty that goes with them-the Ford v10 or Chevy 6.0L will pull plenty-if you really do need more-than the diesel becomes more viable anyway.
If you go auto with either of these 2 gassers -then get the Ford,it's got more umpf to begin with-if you go manual-get the Chevy-they still use the cast iron/gear oil NV4500 with that engine. The 6.0L/5spd will put out more torque to the rear wheels than the v10 will with auto-with the same axle ratios.
If you want 4x4,what you get depends on what you'll do with it-if the truck will only be used the same as if it were 2wd,but would also do better getting around during winters-I like Chevy above Dodge or Ford. Chevy has higher ground clearance than the others and offers a smoother/more controllable ride, plus it sits at a realistic height. The Dodge and Ford are impractically high to me-what good is it? Poor handling,lousy center of gravity, reduced towing and payload.
I guess it's another statement thing-the "mines bigger than yours" thing...lol.
If however you think you'll be putting off road lumps and bumps on it-then don't even consider the Chevy-go Dodge or Ford,and of these two I would go Ford,as Ford 4x4's are truly built "For Off Road Driving", solid live front axle/w leaf springs-God I love those "ancient things"-thank God Ford did'int think it needed to be improved upon....
As far as warranty goes-I would just be careful and make sure of what you get before you sign anything-but I'm sure this goes without saying...lol.
I feel so much better that I did not flame my fellow motorist/truck lover/human being now.
I feel I've presented the facts as I know them as descretely and unbiasedly as I know how,and thats all that we can expect from anyone,I'm sure some will disagree on certain points,but thats the beauty of debate-the quest for knowledge.
As far as the diesel thing goes-BLAH,BLAH,BLAH - everyone's got an opinion-it's mine that the diesel engine has become more of a trendy statment maker than a usable working tool.
They are WAY more powerful than they need to be straight from the factory-and even this is'int enough for those who find themselves buying and installing the latest chips and mods,in order to "keep up with the jones"...lol.
Possibly, but the fact is that diesel motors are more efficient and are getting to be more powerful than their gasser counterparts. Reliability has vastly improved in teh past 10-20 years. And the fact that the gasser motors today from all three have become more powerful but fuel mileage has NOT increased, or at least increased dramatically) has detoured buyers.
Quote:
Auto trannys suck in general-but if you gotta have one then don't go Ford or Dodge-go Chevy (hey,I'm being honest here) the Allison is proven -the torqueshift is not-people can cry all they want-the 6.0PSD/Torqueshift is NOT proven.
The 4r100 and 47RE transmissions are NOT as strong as the allison 1000-series, however if you don't exceed limits and do proper maintence, they will last nearly forever. When will the 6L PSD/TorqShift be proven? The hemi is new as well, it isn't proven and yet people are buying them. The duramax is new too, people buy them.
Quote:
As far as diesels go -way I see it you got 2 choices-go cummins or go gas. Gas engines are just plain more practical for most people,even the ones who think that diesels would serve them better. Cheaper up front cost-fuel more widely available-cheaper oil changes-easier/cheaper maintenance-easier cold starting-no fuel jelling,etc,etc.
Fuel gelling hasn't been a problem since the sulfer (sp?) content has been reduced. For most people, a diesel makes a better choice. But remember, most people buying HD truck tow heavy loads and haul heavy loads. They don't cruise to the grocery store.
Quote:
If you go auto with either of these 2 gassers -then get the Ford,it's got more umpf to begin with-if you go manual-get the Chevy-they still use the cast iron/gear oil NV4500 with that engine. The 6.0L/5spd will put out more torque to the rear wheels than the v10 will with auto-with the same axle ratios.
Nope, the V-10 with 3:73 gears has CONSIDERABLY more torque at every rpm than the 6L 364 GM.
Quote:
Chevy has higher ground clearance than the others and offers a smoother/more controllable ride, plus it sits at a realistic height.
Ditto on the ride, but have you actually compared a 4x4 Super duty to a GM HD truck? The frame hangs WAY down on GM trucks, as it has to to be able to have the Allison's huge mass.
Well Pastmaster, all I can say is that we disagree on several points,some are a matter of opinion,and others are more open to an interpretation of facts.
__________________________________________________ __
(Possibly, but the fact is that diesel motors are more efficient and are getting to be more powerful than their gasser counterparts. Reliability has vastly improved in teh past 10-20 years. And the fact that the gasser motors today from all three have become more powerful but fuel mileage has NOT increased, or at least increased dramatically) has detoured buyers. )
__________________________________________________ __
I do not dispute this-it is a fact that diesel technology has vastly improved over the years-but when will enough be enough?
Diesel has become a big market for GM/Ford/Dodge, and it's my opinion that it is'int really necessary.
Ever notice that most people seem to want to know who has the "best" diesel? Longest lasting? Most torque, and HP? No one even seems to be interested in gasoline motors anymore-we all want POWER!...lol. The fact is that although I like diesels myself,I realize that gassers have plenty of advantages to them.
What can a 6.0L PSD do that a 7.3L won't? Get to 60mph 3 seconds faster? Does it matter? Last I heard the speed limit was still 70-75 mph in most states.
It's become a big pissing contest between the manufacturers.
And I stand by my comment about practicality-if you buy a new PSD(without 1 problem) and pay the extra 5,300.00 for it+ no rebate,and I get a rebated v10 gasser for 7,300.00 less, but yours lasts 400,000 miles,and all I get is 200,000 before I gotta rebuild mine-I can still get the reman put in(almost like new) for a little over 5,000.00-now I get another 200K out of it-and I'm still paying less than you are!
Chances are in 400,000 miles your going to have at least one 12-1400.00 repair to be made(besides the usual pads , alts, starters, etc for both) -now I'm that much further ahead!
I'll use more fuel than you will,thats for sure-but without the additional costs in fuel conditioners, filters and oil-and plug ins-it's not costing me much more there.
So it is my opinion that diesels have no short or long term advantages to gassers as far as maintenance costs,or fuel costs go. Diesels have only ONE distinct advantage to a gasser-they will pull more weight,and they will pull it easier-but most of todays gassers will easily pull over 10K with the right trans/axle ratio-how many diesel owners actually pull 14-20,000lb trailers regularly?
I call this keeping things in perspective-If you want a diesel and are willing to pay for it-then nothing I or anyone else would say would convince you otherwise(and I would'int want to), but if I'm being asked for MY honest opinion,when someone is undecided on the issue- then I will give it the way I see it.
_________________________________________________
The 4r100 and 47RE transmissions are NOT as strong as the allison 1000-series, however if you don't exceed limits and do proper maintence, they will last nearly forever. When will the 6L PSD/TorqShift be proven? The hemi is new as well, it isn't proven and yet people are buying them. The duramax is new too, people buy them.
__________________________________________________ _
I don't doubt that any well maintained component will outlast one which is abused and neglected, but it is my opinion that if you want the most proven to be reliable auto tranny out now-then the allison is it-how many Cummins or PSD buyers would'int pay the extra 2000 to have one behind their chosen motors if given the choice? Again it was my opinion.
I already said,regarding the Hemi's -"I like Dodge, and although I've no experience with them-it's my gut feeling that somethings not quite right with that picture-again MY opinion bro.
The 6.0PSD will be proven when people buy enough of them and then use them enough to prove it's dependability,also if in 5 years you see ambulances ,and fire rescue vehicles still using Ford SD's with the powerstrokes-I would consider that a pretty good indication of performance and reliability. I commend those willing to spend their money to invest in new technology,but I would'int do it myself,and could'int possibly tell someone to do something I myself would'int do.
__________________________________________________ __
Fuel gelling hasn't been a problem since the sulfer (sp?) content has been reduced. For most people, a diesel makes a better choice. But remember, most people buying HD truck tow heavy loads and haul heavy loads. They don't cruise to the grocery store.
__________________________________________________ __
For reasons already stated I disagree on this point-I see no reason why a diesel would be a better choice for "most" people-for some yes but I would suspect that "most" would be better served by gasoline engines-but hey,it's not my money ,far be it from me to tell people how to spend theirs,my opinion is all I offer.
Besides I doubt most v10 buyers buy their trucks simply for "getting groceries" incase your implying thats all gas engines are good for.
__________________________________________________ __
Nope, the V-10 with 3:73 gears has CONSIDERABLY more torque at every rpm than the 6L 364 GM.
__________________________________________________ __
This is true, regardless of the rear axle ratio,but only as far as ENGINE torque goes, I was refering to "rear wheel torque" in my example.
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but from what I know, automatic transmissions draw about 20% engine power throughout the RPM range in order to reliably work, the remaining power (torque) is then multiplied an average factor of 2 by the torque converter,right? We'll, do the math.
GM 6.0L= 290 LBFT at 1000 RPM + NV4500= 1st gear ratio of 5.61, with 4.10 rears that comes out;
290 x 5.61=1626 x 4.10 = 6670 LBFT available to the rear wheels.
6.8Lv10=355 LBFT at 1000 RPM - 20% draw=284 LBFT x 2(Torque converter)=568 LBFT x 2.71 (1st gear ratio/4r100)= 1539 x 4.10 =
6311 LBFT available to the rear wheels.
So really this is a comparision of transmissions more so than it is engines.
Want more insult? The 5.4L also produces around 290 LBFT at 1000 RPM + ZF S6 650 = 5.79 1st gear ratio,with 4.10's that comes out;
290 x 5.79= 1679 LBFT x 4.10 rears= 6884 LBFT to the rear wheels....lol. (STICKS RULE!!)
I did'int mention the 5.4L in my recommendation because - it dosent compare to the 6.0L as well as the v10 does in my opinion(and I own one) also the 5.4L actually loses some torque at 4000 RPM-it's down to 300 LBFT,but at that RPM the 6.0L hits its peak,+ it has 40 more HP to boot.
The GM 6.0L is a very good engine-it's got a very broad power range and contrary to what most think- its got plenty of low end torque-it's no V10 for sure -but the tranny behind it is better.
(manual for manual) It's not geared as low as the ZF but it's very close-AND it uses gear oil in an iron case-nuff said.
I left the 8.1L and Dodge v10 out of it because in my opinion they don't out perform the 6.0L or 6.8Lv10 by enough margin to justify the lousy MPG, 7-10 mph empty is ridiculous. These engines are pigs.
It's my opinion that the 6.0L and v10 are the best gas engines goin right now from any truck manufacturer-with the v10 being the better of the 2 and the 5.4L coming in third. But as I've shown, the "power" is in fact in the gearing-to an extent at least.
It would be wonderful to get a v-10 with nv4500 5spd...hmmmmm!
__________________________________________________ __
Ditto on the ride, but have you actually compared a 4x4 Super duty to a GM HD truck? The frame hangs WAY down on GM trucks, as it has to to be able to have the Allison's huge mass.
__________________________________________________ __
I hav'ent brought out the tape measure,no...lol.
But I will say that from what I've seen, there does appear to be a little more clearance under the GM than there does under the Ford,although the Ford sits about 6" higher.
Also, if you go to Fords website and do a manufacturer comparision,they will tell you the same thing-wheather or not theres actually an inch difference in clearance-I don't know,but there does seem to be a bit more in the GM inspite of the fact that the frame itself does,as you say, stick out further beneath.
Anyway, I'm done with my book, if you can show me where I'm wrong anywhere,then I would truely appreciate it as I am always willin' to learn, thanks!
There probably are more than just one reason Navistar went to a new motor. I would say emissions and fuel economy are the first. No consumer can lose from this, in the end we get better trucks, and products. Ford could have put 32 valve heads on the 7.3L and it could have possibly had the same, or at least close to, the power of the 6L PSD, Duramax, and Cummins HO. I suspect that Navistar felt that the 7.3L was dated and needed to be replaced. It probably was at the top of its power life and couldn't gain any more serious power. I don't know.
Your diesel vs V-10 debate has a lot of merit, I am in that exact stage deciding whether to wait for the 3v V-10 or going with the diesel. The fact you must remember is "resale value", the PSD will bring almost identical amount that you paid for it as an investment. Then don't forget the mileage difference. A PSD in a CC/SB 4x4 will get almost twice the mileage of the V-10. I have no desire to completely wear a truck out. I like to trade while the value is still up. Not only that, I believe more resale buyers, (used buyers) want diesel trucks. I see 3-4 PSD's for every 5.4L or V10.
I'm not arguing with you on your opinion, but there are quite a few "new" trucks/motors out there that are unproven, by your opinion, that are doing fine, or at least have minor problems. The HEMI has been tested in many stages for awhile, Dodge kept delaying it for various reasons. I suspect Ford/Navistar has done the same thing. I feel that Ford/Navistar will have most of the bugs out by the time I purchase a truck. Ford cannot afford to have a lemon of a diesel in a truck. GM did with it's 6.5L, and they suffered a MAJOR loss because of it. It took them almost 8 years to eventually see the big picture. The Duramax is a great motor, but the 2003 Silverado is hideous. A big loss for them.
I mean no disrespect for the V-10, it is a good motor, however for "most" people who buy HD trucks, the diesel makes more sense...The PSD can tow more, gets twice as good of mileage, and should last longer. And with all of that, will get the same amount of money back as you pay for it.
Believe it or not, we have a 1500HD with a 6L/4L80E at work. It is a nice truck, but comparing that to a buddy's V-10/4r100, it can't hold a candle. True, the V-10 doesn't effectively have good low-end torque as the 8.0L V-10 does, however the 6L does not either. I cannot speak from a manual transmission perspective, but you must remember the 6L is only available with a NV4500 5-speed. The V-10 is only available with a ZF 6-speed.
1/2 ton GM trucks do have better ground clearance than F-150s do. However that is NOT the case with HD trucks, despite the fact it has IFS and Ford has SFA. These are 4x4 trucks, if your comparing 2wd, I cannot say.
This is definately one of the better posting debates I've had here thus far, so far I hav'ent lost my cool, and I can see that I am debating with someone who's reasonably intelligent, like myself... .
I think I can see better now where it is your comming from;
___________________________________________
Your diesel vs V-10 debate has a lot of merit, I am in that exact stage deciding whether to wait for the 3v V-10 or going with the diesel
___________________________________________
You obviously have a bit more vested here than merely offering an opinion to someone else about the pro's and con's involved in comparing the 3500 and 350, not that theres anything wrong with that, as you do make many good and relevent points.
From what I gather,your mind is already made up on buying a new 250/350 CC/SB 4x4,with auto tranny and your leaning towards the 6.0 PSD.
I too feel that the motor/tranny thing will be worked out-but only through useage,and along the way some people are going to go through some headaches with it-it won't be me,but that dosent mean that I don't believe it will be worked out-I do.
_________________________________________
The fact you must remember is "resale value", the PSD will bring almost identical amount that you paid for it as an investment. Then don't forget the mileage difference. A PSD in a CC/SB 4x4 will get almost twice the mileage of the V-10. I have no desire to completely wear a truck out. I like to trade while the value is still up. Not only that, I believe more resale buyers, (used buyers) want diesel trucks. I see 3-4 PSD's for every 5.4L or V10.
__________________________________________
This makes even more sense, when I gave my opinions, I was looking at it from my own stand point- I like to hold on to em for awhile,I do burn em up-very rarely trade them in.
I see your point here-yes a diesel will offer part of it's value on trade in-but surely not all of it- no truck/car with any engine holds it's value or offers the same type of "investment" as real estate.
I also see your point about resale buyers- because I too would have my reservations about buying a used gasser with 140,000 miles on it for say 11,000.00, I'd be much more willing to pay 3000.00 more for a diesel with the same mileage and same year.
So while the diesel will retain more value-it won't give it all(7500.00) back during resale.
But again, I don't trade usually-not unless I'm in something that I absolutely can't stand to be around anymore-only happened once. Remember that Dodge I was talking about? I'd prolly still have it ,rebuilt of course, if my brother had'int wrecked it.
I'd much rather repair/ replace my old engine and suck every bit of life from it-looking at it that way-the gasser is cheaper because unless you put something like 40-50,000 miles a year on the diesel, both trucks will be pretty ragged and worn out at 400,000 miles anyway.(Time wears all things)
__________________________________________
The Duramax is a great motor, but the 2003 Silverado is hideous. A big loss for them.
__________________________________________
The Dmax is ok. Only time will tell if it's truely a great motor-I'm still not down with those aluminum heads-still to new to me, the Cummins is a great motor,and so is the 7.3L PSD, but the Dmax
does have a 3 yr track record -both good and bad ,and people know what to expect-the same is not true of the new PSD, not yet anyways.
As far as the 03 Silverado, I'd have agreed with you 5 mos ago, but it's starting to grow on me, as is the 04' F150.
Seems Chevy always brings out these new bodies/grilles,which at first are very repulsive, and hideous looking- but then for some reason I end up liking them.
They are similar but NOT identical to the one's on the avalanch-Silverado's are a bit beefier and muscular looking- you prolly don't follow me now ,but you might in a year or so.
______________________________________________
Believe it or not, we have a 1500HD with a 6L/4L80E at work. It is a nice truck, but comparing that to a buddy's V-10/4r100, it can't hold a candle. True, the V-10 doesn't effectively have good low-end torque as the 8.0L V-10 does, however the 6L does not either. I cannot speak from a manual transmission perspective, but you must remember the 6L is only available with a NV4500 5-speed. The V-10 is only available with a ZF 6-speed.
____________________________________________
I like both engines, but I agree with this, auto for auto,or manual for manual, the v10 wins hands down, I was only illustrating how you could have 2 similar trucks with entirely different trannys, and even though the one engine in the one truck thoroughly out classes the other, the difference in transmissions causes the lesser engine to put out more torque(power) at the wheels.
Now as far as the 8.0L or 8.1L go-they are overkill in MY opinion, I just don't see the need for them-they will outpull a 6.8 or 6.0-it's true,but they will suffer in the mountains, get crappy mileage, and generally won't last any longer being they are still gas engines. When I say the 6.0L GM and the 6.8Lv10 are the best gas engines for HD trucks-I'm talking about realistic gas engines.
I see 11-15(v10) and 12-17(GM) as realistic-not 6-10 mpg empty or loaded. These are hogs-if you bought a truck with either of these engines in it and you really use it's power-than you are one of the few(My opinion) who really did need the diesel in the first place .
Your turn Sir,....lol..I've got manners!
I've done my homework on what I want. For me, and about the 25k/year I drive, the diesel appears to be the best value. The V-10 (and even the 5.4L) could do the job, however like I said, "value" is what is the most important to me.
Quote:
I also see your point about resale buyers- because I too would have my reservations about buying a used gasser with 140,000 miles on it for say 11,000.00, I'd be much more willing to pay 3000.00 more for a diesel with the same mileage and same year.
So while the diesel will retain more value-it won't give it all(7500.00) back during resale.
It would IF you consider the mileage advantage, the maintence advantage, (which is VERY little) and the resale advantage. $7500 is a hunk of change, you might just end up balancing out in the end.
Quote:
Time wears all things)
True, but diesels age slower than gassers do. The PSD 6L should last to at least 300k. Will the V-10? The truck itself is the same, so yes it will age the same.
The avalanche and Silverado's appearance is similar, but not identical. GM has went with that goofy hood/grille on both. In fact they might be interchangable. The turn signals are above on the avalanche, the signals are below on the silverado.
I really don't NEED a diesel, but I'm looking at what it would cost me to run either, and the diesel appears to be a better value overall.
Just a few comments on the above novels. In Frank's 1st gear comparison of auto V10 vs. 5speed 6.0 you self servingly left out driveline loss of a stick. While not as much as an auto it will be around +10% . Plus the fact that the torque multiplication of the convertor is eventually back to approx 1:1 therby giving you a more real world 1st gear speed than the the 5 mph(?) top speed of the manual in first.
Pastmaster's comment on the diesel towing more is skewed IMO. A V10 with 4.30's is rated the same and obviously weighs less. So in theory the V10 with 4.30's actually has a higher tow rating at GCVWR. I would choose the diesel at altitude or at max loads or if the miles exceeded 40,000 a year. You will NEVER get all your money back for the diesel option.
Maintenance advantage? I'm unfamiliar with the G2 but the 7.3 was waaay more expensive to maintain than the gasser.
That is all for now, my fingers are tired from typing.
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-26-2003 at 02:12 PM.
Pastmaster's comment on the diesel towing more is skewed IMO. A V10 with 4.30's is rated the same and obviously weighs less. So in theory the V10 with 4.30's actually has a higher tow rating at GCVWR. I would choose the diesel at altitude or at max loads or if the miles exceeded 40,000 a year. You will NEVER get all your money back for the diesel option.
Skewed? Maybe just a bit.
Both the V-10 and 6L in the truck I want have a 12,500lbs max capacity. You are correct, the 7.3L weights about 1100lbs. I would assume the V-10 weighs around 450lbs? My 302 weighs 350lbs, give/take a few.
I don't want/need 4.30 gears though, the mileage would definantly suck, no 15mpg there. I've read around 12mpg, still not bad, but not efficient for me. I would pay about $2895/year for fuel in that. If the 6L gets 18mpg I would pay $1791/year. I could really use that $1100 for something besides fuel. If you consider 3 years, I would automatically save $3300. I'm sure that the 6L would bring back more than $2000 at resale.
Interesting though, a dually CC 4x4 V10 has a 12,900lbs towing capacity, more than 500lbs than the 6L PSD. Better not let the cat out of the back over on TDS.
It's doubtful that you will get exactly $5300 at return, however I don't intent to pay that either. Invoice is considerably less.
Quote:
Maintenance advantage? I'm unfamiliar with the G2 but the 7.3 was waaay more expensive to maintain than the gasser.
WAAAY more? How do you figure? The 7.3L holds 15qrts of oil. If you assume that you can purchase Rotella 15W-40 for $1.39/quart, that is $20.85+$5 filter=$25.85. The gassers have 6.5qrts for $1.39=9.73+$3 filter=$12.73. That is half the cost of oil, only... But the 6L is supposed to go 6000 miles between changes. So it is a balance.
I only plan to drive a truck to about 75k or 3years. If I decided to drive to at least 200k, I would need to tune-up the gassers at least twice. I don't have 3-4 hours of time to stretch under the hood to yank the coils off the plugs. I'd pay someone for their frustration.
So yes, it's pretty much balanced until you reach that golden 100k. The it's diesel advantage.
Originally posted by Pastmaster Skewed? Maybe just a bit.
WAAAY more? How do you figure? The 7.3L holds 15qrts of oil. If you assume that you can purchase Rotella 15W-40 for $1.39/quart, that is $20.85+$5 filter=$25.85. The gassers have 6.5qrts for $1.39=9.73+$3 filter=$12.73. That is half the cost of oil, only... But the 6L is supposed to go 6000 miles between changes. So it is a balance.
I only plan to drive a truck to about 75k or 3years. If I decided to drive to at least 200k, I would need to tune-up the gassers at least twice. I don't have 3-4 hours of time to stretch under the hood to yank the coils off the plugs. I'd pay someone for their frustration.
So yes, it's pretty much balanced until you reach that golden 100k. The it's diesel advantage.
I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure the V10 intervals are 7500 miles. I think we all can agree as enthusiasts we change our oil more often than that. In other words, I'd change both at around 3000 miles and again using the 7.3 as a refrence clean oil is CRITICAL due to the injection system used. The Castrol 5-20 I buy is usually on sale at .99 when buying the gallon and I always thought the diesel filter was closer to $10 than $5. Don't forget your water separator @ $10 (?).
I also know it varies from county to county but right now diesel is a full dime more than the 87 I can run in my V10(wish the Marauder could run regular!!!)
I haven't done the math lately, but in the past I have come up with 180,000-200,000 miles as a break even point. And we both agree we won't keep our trucks that long.
One other point that is purely opinion. Being around and driving the 7.3 when on the rescue 24 hours at a time is torture. I will give the G2 a chance, I've read it's more responsive, less smelly and supposedly less noisey: My 3 biggest gripes concerning diesels.
I'm glad we agree on tow ratings. Just remember that at 20,000 GCVWR a diesel 4X4 crew cab dually with just an average load of people, fuel and gear will have a max towing rating of closer to 10K with the V10 being a little higher.
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-27-2003 at 12:14 AM.
nope diesels will pull ALOT more-it's their only and I mean ONLY advantage- they can really pull 20,000LB+ trailers-and do it without working too hard, gas engines are fine for lighter loads-8-12,000LB trailers,and for most people thats all thats needed-gassers are alot cheaper all the way around than oil burners.
Ditto on the price of diesel, It's considerably higher where I live as well-and I did'int even figure that in to my cost comparision. Don't put too much faith in rated weight ratings from the manufacturers-you see the difference in the axle rating in the 250,and 350 SRW? 250= 6064LB, the 350 = 6830LB, so why are the axle ratings so different? Tires-that's all.
Ever notice in Ford's tow ratings, how the 250 4x2 will pull 11,400LBs,but the 350 4x2SRW, is only rated at11,200LBs?
And it gets better -the reg cab 350 4x2DRW is only rated to pull 10,900LBs! This is all with v10 gasoline engine, now you don't really believe that a 250 SRW,will out pull a 350 DRW,do you?
It's all BS- a flawed design in their calculations,because they don't want to have to address each and EVERY condition that applies to towing.
The 350 DRW is rated to carry 5,455LBs in payload, the 250 - just 3,440 LBs-that a whole lotta tongue weight carrying difference! Besides that, we all know that 4 tires are a whole lot better than 2-when it comes to handling heavy weight trailers.
So whats my point? Take manufacturers ratings with a grain of salt-common sense goes a whole lot further than BS printed on paper.
The diesel will outpull the v10 in ANY configuration.
Put it this way 1.) 250/350/Reg cab /V10/ SRW/auto/4.30's/4x2
2.)350 DRW/CC/LB/auto/3.73-4.10/ 4x2
Which will pull more? DIESEL
If I were pulling 14-20,000LB trailers all day every day,or putting on 50,000 mile/yr with my truck-ALL I would consider is diesel-I would not buy it,with the expectation of breaking even at some point-I would buy it regardless of the added cost- because it is what I would NEED. No v10 or any other gasser is going to do that anywheres near as effectively-Ford's numbers don't mean crap!
But by the flip side, I would'int buy the diesel for "fuel economy","reduced maintenance",or "trade in value"(which is way over rated). I have already shown why the gasser is cheaper in terms of maintenance-no more costly in fuel for the average user, and has plenty of power for most applications-this is why inspite of the "diesel craze" that the manufacturers are feeding off of,I STILL think that gasoline engines are BEST for MOST people. Even those who want diesels.
As far as sticks losing and power through the drivetrain-yes as soon as the clutch is engaged -the RPM's go down, but a little foot pedal and theyre back up- I don't see where a stick would "draw" any power from the engine the way an auto does.
Originally posted by franktheman nope diesels will pull ALOT more-it's their only and I mean ONLY advantage- they can really pull 20,000LB+ trailers-and do it without working too hard, gas engines are fine for lighter loads-8-12,000LB trailers,and for most people thats all thats needed-gassers are alot cheaper all the way around than oil burners.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(REPLY)Well, unfortunatly, the 250 350 SD's cannot safely or legally pull 20k trailers.......so it's kind of a moot point. It appears that we actually agree that in the 8-12k trailer range both motors perform adequately with the diesel getting the nod at altitude. BTW, TRAILER LIFE compared a 275HP V10 against a PSD up a pass with a 7500 trailer and it was a dead heat!!!.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ditto on the price of diesel, It's considerably higher where I live as well-and I did'int even figure that in to my cost comparision. Don't put too much faith in rated weight ratings from the manufacturers-you see the difference in the axle rating in the 250,and 350 SRW? 250= 6064LB, the 350 = 6830LB, so why are the axle ratings so different? Tires-that's all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(REPLY)
Agreed, Has nothing to do with towing, however.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever notice in Ford's tow ratings, how the 250 4x2 will pull 11,400LBs,but the 350 4x2SRW, is only rated at11,200LBs?
And it gets better -the reg cab 350 4x2DRW is only rated to pull 10,900LBs! This is all with v10 gasoline engine, now you don't really believe that a 250 SRW,will out pull a 350 DRW,do you?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(REPLY)
Absolutely!!!! Why in the world would two extra wheels add to towing capacity???? DRW's subtract from tow ratings because the truck is heavier. The GCVWR is a constant,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's all BS- a flawed design in their calculations,because they don't want to have to address each and EVERY condition that applies to towing.
The 350 DRW is rated to carry 5,455LBs in payload, the 250 - just 3,440 LBs-that a whole lotta tongue weight carrying difference! Besides that, we all know that 4 tires are a whole lot better than 2-when it comes to handling heavy weight trailers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(REPLY)Totally disagree. Every config. is accounted for. It's a simple matter of subtracting the curb weight from the GCVWR.
Payload is important for fivers and goosenecks but on a 10K travel trailer with a 1K tongue weight it's not that important. FYI I tow a 40' travel trailer or a 22' tunnel boat with a SRW and I DON'T "KNOW" that 4 tires would tow it any better........throw on a bed mounted camper and I see the DRW advantage.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So whats my point? Take manufacturers ratings with a grain of salt-common sense goes a whole lot further than BS printed on paper.
The diesel will outpull the v10 in ANY configuration.
Put it this way 1.) 250/350/Reg cab /V10/ SRW/auto/4.30's/4x2
2.)350 DRW/CC/LB/auto/3.73-4.10/ 4x2
Which will pull more? DIESEL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(REPLY)
Nope, the V10 will pull more........legally and warranty wise. Will the diesel pull 10k FASTER to the top of a 7000' grade.......Yea, I'll accept that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I were pulling 14-20,000LB trailers all day every day,or putting on 50,000 mile/yr with my truck-ALL I would consider is diesel-I would not buy it,with the expectation of breaking even at some point-I would buy it regardless of the added cost- because it is what I would NEED. No v10 or any other gasser is going to do that anywheres near as effectively-Ford's numbers don't mean crap!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(REPLY)If you were pulling 20k trailers with a 250/350, tell me where so I'm not on the same road!!!! Ford's numbers are there for a reason. It may not be the motor but there is a weak link in the chain for there to be those limits.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But by the flip side, I would'int buy the diesel for "fuel economy","reduced maintenance",or "trade in value"(which is way over rated). I have already shown why the gasser is cheaper in terms of maintenance-no more costly in fuel for the average user, and has plenty of power for most applications-this is why inspite of the "diesel craze" that the manufacturers are feeding off of,I STILL think that gasoline engines are BEST for MOST people. Even those who want diesels.
As far as sticks losing and power through the drivetrain-yes as soon as the clutch is engaged -the RPM's go down, but a little foot pedal and theyre back up- I don't see where a stick would "draw" any power from the engine the way an auto does.
I'll agree on the "perceived value" just not being there.
I'm at a loss why you don't think a manual trans/drivetrain doesn't have a power loss. Example: '96-'98 305 HP Cobras have 270 RWHP. 225 HP 5.0's have aprox 180 at the wheels. 320 HP(underrated) LS1 Camaros run 300HP at the wheels. All these cars are manuals, where did the power go????
Take it EZ.
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-27-2003 at 04:13 AM.
Ever notice in Ford's tow ratings, how the 250 4x2 will pull 11,400LBs,but the 350 4x2SRW, is only rated at11,200LBs?
And it gets better -the reg cab 350 4x2DRW is only rated to pull 10,900LBs! This is all with v10 gasoline engine, now you don't really believe that a 250 SRW,will out pull a 350 DRW,do you?
Yes, I do - because it's true. The maximum weight a vehicle can tow is governed by GCWR, which takes into account the weight of the truck PLUS the weight of the trailer. With identical drivetrains, the lighter truck will always be able to pull a larger load than the heavier truck. A 4x4 can't tow as much as a 4x2, a Lariat can't tow as much as an XL, a crew-cab can't tow as much as a regular-cab.
You see, the truck's towing ability is limited by things like the strength of the transmission, the cooling capacity of the engine, and things like that. Adding two extra wheels doesn't mean the engine can cool itself any better, or that the transmission is any stronger, or that the engine produces any more power - all it means is that the drivetrain is moving around more weight, which leaves less reserve capacity for towing trailers.
It's all BS- a flawed design in their calculations,because they don't want to have to address each and EVERY condition that applies to towing.
Nope, the numbers are correct.
The 350 DRW is rated to carry 5,455LBs in payload, the 250 - just 3,440 LBs-that a whole lotta tongue weight carrying difference!
The DRW can carry more weight, I won't argue that - it just can't TOW any more weight.
So whats my point? Take manufacturers ratings with a grain of salt-common sense goes a whole lot further than BS printed on paper.
In this case your "common sense" is wrong - which is why manufacturers put ratings on vehicles, because the public has shown that they aren't capable of figuring it out for themselves. I don't mean this as an insult - it only makes sense that the engineers who design the trucks would know their capabilities better than the average Joe on the street. Or, think about it another way - if you're trusting these people to design your truck, don't you think you can trust them to know the limitations of their own design?
The diesel will outpull the v10 in ANY configuration.
Nope - the V10 can pull a larger trailer, because it weighs perhaps 500 pounds less. The diesel can pull it more efficiently, and the diesel can pull it for a longer time without wearing out - but as far as pulling the trailer is concerned, the V10 will outpull the diesel. This is how they are rated, and these ratings are correct.
Now, on to the physical ability to pull a trailer - not counting the limitations of the drivetrain components or the ratings. Contrary to popular belief, the physical ability to pull a trailer up a hill at a given speed is dependent upon the horsepower the engine is producing at it's operating RPM - and torque is only important in that it makes horsepower. A 310hp V10 engine will outpull a 250 or 275hp diesel engine every time - assuming that each engine is operating at it's horsepower peak. Do most people tow at that high of RPMs? No, of course not - but if they *had* to, they could - and the V10 would outpull the diesel. It'll get horrible mileage, and will wear out fairly quickly, but it'll do it.
The new 6.0L diesel produces more horsepower, and should be able to keep up with the V10 - if not be a little faster.
However, if someone is going to tow on a regular basis it would make sense to use the diesel - because it'll get better mileage while towing, and will be more durable. As far as payback goes, that last time I figured it it was at about 200,000 miles (including resale values). Right now the diesel is about $7,500 more, and with financing and sales tax that comes to over $8,500 - and it takes a *long* time to get that money back. Plus, the diesel costs more to insure - my insurance company charges $100 more every 6 months to insure a diesel vs. an identical V10 truck. Then you have maintenance...
As far as sticks losing and power through the drivetrain-yes as soon as the clutch is engaged -the RPM's go down, but a little foot pedal and theyre back up- I don't see where a stick would "draw" any power from the engine the way an auto does.
Both systems have losses - due to friction, the auto tranny pump, and things like that. No drivetrain is 100% efficient - if it were, it could be used as an eternal motion machine. Since the modern auto tranny's torque convertor locks up, the difference in efficiency between them and the manual tranny is pretty small at operating speeds.
As far as torque for pulling trailers, the advantages of the torque convertor outweigh the advantages of the manual tranny gearing - and tests back this up. Pickuptruck.com did a series of tests on the Ford, Chevy, and Dodge diesels - and the auto-tranny trucks beat the manual-tranny trucks in acceleration, both unloaded and pulling a 12,100 pound trailer (on level ground and pulling up a hill).
The main disadvantage to the auto tranny is lack of control, not lack of performance or towing ability.
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.
.
.
