Chris, why are you bringing info in that has no bearing on this .
We're not talking 450/550's or monster over weight loads. We're talking 250/350 DRW/SRW and gassers/diesels at their operating limits. For the limits imposed by Ford(and the DOT) the numbers speak for themselves.
If I'm ever lucky enough to get a 40' tunnel boat with triple big blocks I KNOW I need more truck. The F700 Supercruiser comes to mind!!!! But at these "candyass" limits the DRW adds payload, not towing capacity.
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-28-2003 at 04:01 PM.
with your logic, if you hooked up an f250 v10 auto single rear wheel to my dad's or my brother's f450 (7.3 psd, 6spds) with some grade 70 3/8s chain that you could pull them anywhere you want to cuz you think that v10 and auto combination, and a lighter truck weight, is superior. man, the f250 wouldn't stand a chance. youd smash your face off the steering wheel youd be going backwards so fast. you can throw out all the numbers and statistics and horsepower and torque curves and truck and trailer weights that you want, but all them numbers don't mean crap when it comes down to it.
yes, actually my information has a direct bearing on what your talking about, since you think that lighter weights and less of a truck, will somehow pull more weight. im giving you a perfect real world example of two trucks running the same engines, except one is about 3,000 pounds heavier on the scales, as well as different in all the ways that you don't like, and it can pull the pants off the smaller one.
Originally posted by cek181 yes, actually my information has a direct bearing on what your talking about, since you think that lighter weights and less of a truck, will somehow pull more weight. im giving you a perfect real world example of two trucks running the same engines, except one is about 3,000 pounds heavier on the scales, as well as different in all the ways that you don't like, and it can pull the pants off the smaller one.
Profanity Removedare you talking about???
What do you grow on that farm??? Do you smoke it???
Why are you comparing a 450 against a 250???
Why are you challenging me to a contest I've never disputed.
Why don't you understand the theme of this discussion??
In 250/350 configs EVERYTHING is the same. Brakes, transmissions(except the diesel auto) frames, axles. There are no different "parts" that will increase the durability or towing capacity of the 250/350's by simply adding DRW's. You will not increase towing capacity by just adding DRW's. Why is this difficult to understand?
If a truck is RATED at a combined weight of no greater than 20,000 pounds. (F250/350) and your truck weighs 8000 pounds with payload, fuel, passengers etc. the MAXIMUM trailer you may tow (legally) is 12,000 pounds. it doesn't matter if Ford says you can tow 13-14K trailer weight; you still cannot exceed the GCVWR.
As a side note a 350 dually, Crew cab, diesel probably weighs closer to 10K. Guess what? you can only tow a 10K trailer LEGALLY. Your weight explanation is ignorant unless you're adding other components to compensate.
Without looking it up, I'm guessing your 450's are rated at around 26,000 GCVWR. And I believe are only available in DRW's. Get the idea yet??? At the lower levels of a 250/350 the only thing DRW will add is payload.
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-28-2003 at 04:42 PM.
man, you must be living in a fantasy world if you can't understand this. perfect example of someone who knows everything by the book and nothing by experience.
im comparing an f450 to an f250 because your entire argument has been based that a lighter truck with single rear wheels will outpull a heavier truck with dual rear wheels. every single one of your posts mentions something about this. you think that just because they are given a higher rating on paper they can pull more. that's not how it works, my friend.
instead of talking about f350s i just upped the anty even moreso to magnify what's being debated.
if they have the same engine in them then by everything you have said the f450 wouldn't be as capable of pulling as an f250. thats crap. f250s are way overmatched when they have an PSD in them because your not even using the full capacity of the engine. the truck can't handle what the engine is capable of at all. the only way i can see a guy needing one in his rig is if he's pushing big tires. otherwise, in my opinion, it's a waste of money, unless you just want the status symbol.
oh and by the way, we grow corn, hay, and raise beef cattle. also haul logs and lots of firewood. thanks for the cheap shot at my intellect or knowledge. great way to make yourself sound smarter than everyone else!
You said one thing that rings true in your last post!!!!
"f250s are way overmatched when they have an PSD in them because your not even using the full capacity of the engine"
The EXACT thing can be said with DRW's in a 350!!! It's the same truck as a SRW...........just because you add DRW's and NOTHING else does not increase the max tow ratings.
And you have very selective reading comprehension. No where do I say that, "im comparing an f450 to an f250 because your entire argument has been based that a lighter truck with single rear wheels will outpull a heavier truck with dual rear wheels"
For the love of God!!! I'm saying with the limitations of the F250/350 components, DRW does not add to towing capacity. Whether the brakes are the weakest link, the axle bearings, the hub caps, the filament in the head lamps.......I couldn't tell you. The bottom line is(man some of you are pig-headed) DRW does not add towing capacity to a 250/350 combo simply because of the other limitation of this truck. What is soooo hard about this???
If you need to tow 14-20K you need to get a 450/550 or higher with DRW's, solid front axles(2WD) and many OTHER components that raise the rating!!!!
think what you want, i could sit here and argue with you about it all night, but your not correct. just because your raising the numbers for what your vehicle is rated for, doesn't mean your also raising the capability of what it CAN ACTUALLY DO. shore, you might get a little more weight freed up so you can put some more on your trailer, but what your really doing is undercutting what your truck is really capable of.
if you have duallies on a truck, THEORETICALLY speaking you will gain nothing as far as performance goes. i agree with you there. and that's how it shows up on paper. but when you actually go and hook up to a trailer, having dual rear wheels allows you to pull much more weight. you can argue that if you want, but you won't change my mind. why do all the trucks on the road over 1 ton run dual wheel setups on their drive axles? it's not only for payload, its for control of the truck. your putting so much more traction to the ground, both accelerating, decelerating, and holding your truck in a straight line. if you want to talk the physics of it, start talking about the static friction between the tires and the road. you've double your surface area to the road on the drive tires. and the heavier you are, the greater your normal force is. the heavier the truck is, and the more surface area of the tires in contact with the ground, the more power you can put to the ground, and the more you can pull. it's exactly why you can pull more in 4x4 than in 2x4. well, by adding duallies, your doing pretty much the same thing, except you don't have two axles engaged.
i completely understand where you are coming from with wanting to be legal though.
Why DRW's in most 1 tons??? Simple; payload rating of the tire.
You can pull more in 4WD than 2WD ??? The whole problem with you coming into this topic is you're talking about farm work and moving heavier loads at slow speeds. I don't know ANYONE who tows in 4WD at highway speeds. (unless it's an alltime system) I'm talking going to the lake or pulling a trailer down the highway.
Your wider contact patch has merit.(but it doesn't increase towing capacity) And this is an honest question. Given the same weight, don't you think a narrower contact patch will have a higher PSI.
There is obviously a point where the weight/power will dictate DRW's. Again at these levels it aint neccessary.
Originally posted by cek181 with your logic, if you hooked up an f250 v10 auto single rear wheel to my dad's or my brother's f450 (7.3 psd, 6spds) with some grade 70 3/8s chain that you could pull them anywhere you want to cuz you think that v10 and auto combination, and a lighter truck weight, is superior.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with 'normal' trailer pulling, and wouldn't prove anything. When two trucks hook to each other, the one with the most weight almost always wins - though the available traction also matters. Heck, I could build a truck that was powered by a Briggs & Stratton 3.5hp lawnmower engine that would pull around your brother's F450 - it'd do it at about .001 mph, but it'd do it. All I'd need is about 50,000 pounds of steel, good traction tires, and a LOT of gear reduction.
I always found it odd when people talking about hooking trucks to each other - it'd be easier just to take each truck to a scale to see which weighs more, and less likely to break parts. In that contest the diesel will outpull the gasser, because it weighs more. However, put 3000 pounds of rock in the gasser and it'd pull the diesel all over the place.
The weight idea applys to getting hay wagons out of muddy fields, but it really doesn't apply to realistic towing situations - I don't know about you, but I've never gotten out on the highway with a gooseneck or 'normal' bumper-pull trailer and not been able to move because of lack of traction. Traction is important for stopping (which is why you should have good trailer brakes), and extra tow vehicle weight does improve the control when cornering - but it isn't going to help you pull the load any faster. However, extra tow vehicle weight will help you pull the load more *safely*, and I don't think I ever argued that point. Having a truck that is physically capable of pulling a trailer without breaking and having a truck that can pull that vehicle *safely* are two completely different things. Heck yeah, a DRW truck will be safer pulling a large trailer and give you more control - so will a crew-cab, because the longer wheelbase makes it more stable. However, a crew-cab DRW will be more likely to overheat or suffer some kind of drivetrain failure - because it's lugging around more weight overall. People have to ask themselves what is the most important - the vehicle that is the most stable and safe to pull with, or the one that can pull the most legally and not suffer some sort of breakdown. All I'm trying to do is explain why the ratings are what they are, dangit! Well, that and explain the relationship between horsepower and towing ability.
And yes, I do own a ranch and pull hay wagons and stock trailers around on a regular basis - so I'm speaking from experience. Hay wagons or any kind of farm equipment that doesn't put any weight on the tow vehicle are special cases, because you need more tow vehicle weight (especially in low-traction situations) - but these aren't 'normal' trailers, usually don't have brakes, and are not normally towed at high speeds or for long distances. Heck, most of the hay wagons I've used had running gear that was so bad that they'd hardly stay behind me at 30mph!
As far as Frank's comments go, I'll get to those when I get back to work on Monday - I've already been here long enough tonight, and I'm not staying even later just to respond to a post. For now, I'll just say that the reason the 7700 won't pull as much is because it doesn't have the same drivetrain - it has a weaker rear axle and transfer case, less cooling, and a thinner frame. You can't compare that to a Superduty because it's a completely different chassis - but you can compare the F250 and F350, because they share nearly all the same components.
Why DRW's in most 1 tons??? Simple; payload rating of the tire.
you can get a high payload rated tired and put it on a single wheel setup as well.
You can pull more in 4WD than 2WD ???
hell yes ever try it?
The whole problem with you coming into this topic is you're talking about farm work and moving heavier loads at slow speeds. I don't know ANYONE who tows in 4WD at highway speeds. (unless it's an alltime system) I'm talking going to the lake or pulling a trailer down the highway.
what you fail to recognize is the parallels i am presenting. traction is traction is traction no matter how fast your going where your going what your driving or whatever. it doesn't matter how fast your going, it's the principle that counts. im trying to tell you that having 2 wheels turning (open differentials) is better than having one wheel turning. by having another wheel putting power to the ground, you are gaining traction and control and ability to do more with whatever power your engine is putting out.
Your wider contact patch has merit.(but it doesn't increase towing capacity) And this is an honest question. Given the same weight, don't you think a narrower contact patch will have a higher PSI.
that's a physics problem that im not set up to solve at the moment
There is obviously a point where the weight/power will dictate DRW's. Again at these levels it aint neccessary.
ill agree with an f250 or an f350, its entirely unneccessary for most applications, never said anything different. im just trying to prove a point is all.
You got learnin' to do bout da real world....duh...
What Cek is telling you is correct-it's what I've been saying alll along dopey.
DRW will outpull SRW all the time, every time.
Ford's numbers are on your side-but those numbers have nothing to do with real world, they might as well be about baking a cake, because thats about how realistic they are in real world towing applications.
Same goes for your view in regard to DRW vs SRW.
Hell, even LK -for all his technical jargon did'int try to dispute the facts any further, after I pointed out the very real, real-world differences between the REAL GAWR's of both trucks, as opposed to Ford's hypothetical tow rating formula , for SRW vs DRW.
You are too slow to grasp this.
It's tough spending 25-30K on a truck, and then convincing yourself the whole time that you got the "best" pulling rig out there-only to find out you've been BS'n yourself the whole time, is'int it?...lol.
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You said one thing that rings true in your last post!!!!
"f250s are way overmatched when they have an PSD in them because your not even using the full capacity of the engine"
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You missed it again dopey, it went right over your head.
What Cek meant was that the PSD in the 250 is'int even beginning to break a sweat, because the 250 itself cannot work the engine to it's full potential-it can do so much more, hell International puts this same engine in it's 4700, 4600, 4400 series medium duty trucks.
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In 250/350 configs EVERYTHING is the same. Brakes, transmissions(except the diesel auto) frames, axles. There are no different "parts" that will increase the durability or towing capacity of the 250/350's by simply adding DRW's. You will not increase towing capacity by just adding DRW's. Why is this difficult to understand?
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Wrong again, everything is the same.....but only on F350 DRW(which is really a 250 with bigger tires)
The 350 DRW utilizes a heavier axle(dana 80-same as 450 does, the 250/350SRW utilise the sterling 10.5" axle)
different springs (9600LBS compared to 7000lbs),
different driveshaft, different tires, reinforced frame, dual wheels, in more ways than one it's more like a downsized 450 than it is an upsized 250.
The only real differences between the 350 DRW and 450, is that the 450 uses a solid monobeam front axle and leaf spring front suspension, as well as a thicker frame.
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In 250/350 configs EVERYTHING is the same. Brakes, transmissions(except the diesel auto) frames, axles. There are no different "parts" that will increase the durability or towing capacity of the 250/350's by simply adding DRW's. You will not increase towing capacity by just adding DRW's. Why is this difficult to understand?
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This statement shows what you know-not much at all dopey.
The 350 DRW is not a 250 with duals bud.
I could'int sit here and call a 350DRW "the same thing" as a 450,
but if I did, I'd be a whole lot closer to the truth than you are with this statement.
I would'int worry too much bout DuhBoy's rude comments, Cek, as far as his potshots go...I can see for myself that you are a much more intelligent person than this guy is-he could'int give an unbiased opinion if his own mother's life counted on it-whatever he owns must be best.
You are correct in stating that he lives in a dream world where v10's can out pull diesels used in 32000lb GVWR applications, where SRW trucks can tow more weight than DRW trucks, and where the hardest working trucks are the lightest trucks.
Like you said,
man, you must be living in a fantasy world if you can't understand this. perfect example of someone who knows everything by the book and nothing by experience.
Quote from Chris, "ill agree with an f250 or an f350, its entirely unneccessary for most applications, never said anything different. im just trying to prove a point is all.
Geeeez!!!! If you actually read MY posts, this is ALL I've ever tried to say.
Of course 4WD, especially 4Lo will get the load moving easier. Again, I'm talking , as LK, stated towing on the highway and not under the extremes you farmers use your vehicles for.
my entire point of hooking the two vehicles up is the heavier one would win. its no different pulling a vehicle backwards than it is a trailer, except it being harder. the heavier one has more control of the situation, just like it would have more control of a trailer behind it on the highway.
and as far as traction being not as important on the highway, i disagree. coming home from jersey with a load of logs, we were on the interstate doing about 60-65 mph, and a car slammed on it's brakes in front of us to get off at an exit ramp. my dad downshifted to 3rd and hit the brakes, otherwise we would have obliterated the car, but the trailer was so heavy pushing the truck down the grade that it pushed the back end of the truck out and we started going sideways. my dad straightened it back out, but had that been a single rear wheel truck, any lighter in weight, with any less traction to the ground, theres no doubt in my mind we would have been pushed sideways, rolled over, or something along those lines. having a heavier truck in no ways is a bad thing, except for gas mileage, in my opinion. they are just safer to drive, especially when towing.
ive had my f150 pushed sideways in 2wd pulling wagons, your allowed to be overweight with a SMV sign right? but putting it in 4x4 keeps you going straight and gives you lots more control.
you guys might not notice any difference in traction at highway speeds, but there is a difference- and it takes outstanding or rare situations to demonstrate that difference.
Gotta LOVE it. Franky takes so much time typing, he misses the post where Chris says it really doesn't matter in a 250/350. Can't WAIT to see you give Chris props on that post. LK never said the DRW will tow more.in a 250/350......again, selective comprehension.
Find any converted gas PSD's Lately?
It's so obvious when one resorts to name calling, that individual knows he's lost and is now scrapping for little dignity he has left. Such a shame.
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For now, I'll just say that the reason the 7700 won't pull as much is because it doesn't have the same drivetrain - it has a weaker rear axle and transfer case, less cooling, and a thinner frame. You can't compare that to a Superduty because it's a completely different chassis - but you can compare the F250 and F350, because they share nearly all the same components.
but putting it in 4x4 keeps you going straight and gives you lots more control. 
