LK, thank you for another view on what I consider "common sense."
And while I agree with most of your torque/HP comment sometimes the hard part is getting to that peak HP in the correct gear!!! I think where current diesels shine is the ability to make their peak at a much lower RPM.
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-27-2003 at 01:50 PM.
Nope - the V10 can pull a larger trailer, because it weighs perhaps 500 pounds less. The diesel can pull it more efficiently, and the diesel can pull it for a longer time without wearing out - but as far as pulling the trailer is concerned, the V10 will outpull the diesel. This is how they are rated, and these ratings are correct.
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Don't forget the fact that the V-10 has to have 4:30 gears to be able to beat the diesel in the towing application. Without it, it does not. Same thing, if Ford offered 4:30 gears w/ the 6L it would be able to out pull the V-10 w/4:30 gears.
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Now, on to the physical ability to pull a trailer - not counting the limitations of the drivetrain components or the ratings. Contrary to popular belief, the physical ability to pull a trailer up a hill at a given speed is dependent upon the horsepower the engine is producing at it's operating RPM - and torque is only important in that it makes horsepower. A 310hp V10 engine will outpull a 250 or 275hp diesel engine every time - assuming that each engine is operating at it's horsepower peak. Do most people tow at that high of RPMs? No, of course not - but if they *had* to, they could - and the V10 would outpull the diesel. It'll get horrible mileage, and will wear out fairly quickly, but it'll do it.
I agree unfortuneatly, but you have to also include altitude differences, optimum fuel spark, and whatever. Try towing 12,500lbs with both at 10,000ft. Out here in Flatlanders, it isn't a problem.
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Plus, the diesel costs more to insure - my insurance company charges $100 more every 6 months to insure a diesel vs. an identical V10 truck. Then you have maintenance...
I've checked into that allready, it isn't the motor that causes the increase in insurance, it is the actual value of the truck that does. I believe the insurance difference for me is around $36/6 months. But of course that is also true of 4x4, crewcab, and the fact it is a truck. It's all cost us because trucks have become more popular.
Well it seems to me, that you guys are content to use Ford's ratings to support your arguements-thats fine -but what looks good on paper,dosent always work out so neatly in real life.
The fact is-on paper your v10 4x2 SRW may be able to tow more than the diesel in 4x4 DRW-but theres alot to this that you are over looking in your calculation.
For starters the 350 DRW will have not just higher payload-but higher GAWR as well- which means it's a whole lot more capable of handling heavier trailers in real world circumstances than your hypothetical tow ratings.
8600LB GVWR - 3440Lb Payload = 5160 curb wt.
Forget 250-let's go 350 SRW, 9900Lb GVWR-4410lb PL = 5410lbs.
(How can this really be?-since we know all else being equal-the 350 SRW only utilzes a heavier tire and different front axle, but 330lbs difference??)
Anyway, on with the show, F350 DRW/11,500lb GVWR- 5455lb
payload = 6045Lb Curb wt.(4x2)
So lets see, with dual rear wheels we add 635lbs but our rear GAWR goes up 2920Lbs-quite a bit.
From what I know the weight displacement on Ford trucks Front/Rear is 55/45%.
For F350 SRW that comes out 2434lbs on the rear axle(empty)
For F350 DRW that comes out 2720lbs on the rear axle(empty)
The respective payload capacities for each must be distributed over both front and rear axles(peeps,food,luggage,equiptment,fuel,etc,etc.) .
The 350 SRW has rear GAWR of 6830Lbs,but if we add 4410lbs payload to 2434lbs rear GVW, we end up 6844lbs-14 lbs overweight-no biggie really,and if you look at any trucks front and rear GAWR's added together they will always exceed the rated GVWR, but the point is there is alot less to work with when you consider tongue loads.
F350 DRW has rear GAWR of 9750lbs - 2720lbs rear GVW+5455lbs payload still leaves 1575lbs left over.
And that's just the rear axle.
As far as trailers go,we all know(or at least we should) that a 30ft gooseneck is alot safer on highway speeds than a 30ft ball hitch trailer is. They handle better and are less prone to cross winds especially from semi's.
DRW vehicles also maintain more contact with the road surface, and aren't as prone to being whipped back and forth from trailer whip/drag. Also in the event of a tire blow,it would be nice to know that you've got those two(extra) tires-could be the difference in rolling over at highway speeds. Also with dual rear wheels you get the added advantage of putting more weight over the rear axle without compromising the front axle-no need for equalizing hitch which would add more weight to the front axle then a 5er would,= better handling,less chace of front axle/tire overload.
LOTS of advantages to DRW for the mere addition of 635lbs if you ask me. And most of that 635lbs is not on the vehicles suspension system.
Point is with SRW truck -with v10 or diesel -you won't be able to pull as much as with duals-plain and simple.
As far as trailers go-one which puts about 25% hitch weight on the truck will be alot safer to tow than one which puts only 10% or so. The light tongue weight trailers have less stability to them and are more prone to zigzagging.
25% tongue wt on a 14000lb trailer is 3500lbs-you can forget that with any SRW truck,but a dually will handle that with lots to spare.
On SRW truck you will exceed your very real GAWR before you ever reach your hypothetical trailering capacity.
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Now, on to the physical ability to pull a trailer - not counting the limitations of the drivetrain components or the ratings. Contrary to popular belief, the physical ability to pull a trailer up a hill at a given speed is dependent upon the horsepower the engine is producing at it's operating RPM - and torque is only important in that it makes horsepower. A 310hp V10 engine will outpull a 250 or 275hp diesel engine every time - assuming that each engine is operating at it's horsepower peak. Do most people tow at that high of RPMs? No, of course not - but if they *had* to, they could - and the V10 would outpull the diesel. It'll get horrible mileage, and will wear out fairly quickly, but it'll do it.
The new 6.0L diesel produces more horsepower, and should be able to keep up with the V10 - if not be a little faster.
Diesel engines typically make more power, you have to consider how horsepower is rated in order to compare diesel engines to gasoline engines in typical trucks used to pull heavy trailers.
The HP ratings are peak horsepower ratings. Gasoline engines typically show peak HP at 3000-4400 RPM's, and HP falls off quickly below that. Diesels typically reach their HP peaks at or below 2800 RPM, and HP stays up throughout most of the RPM range.
How does that make a difference? The gas truck has to be at full throttle to achieve it's rated horsepower,and when climbing hills with really big loads-even at low altitude-the RPM will fall from say 3000 RPM to 2000 RPMs,and it will produce even less power at 2000 RPM than it did at 3000 RPM.
Now at 2000 RPM with much less HP, the load will pull the engine down even further to the point that you have to downshift to get rpms back up again-that's lots of wear.
The diesel has a broader powerband, using the same example, the diesel powered truck running at full throttle encounters the same load as the gas powered truck did,the RPM will fall from say 2500RPM to say 1700RPM.
At 1700 RPM the diesel engine will have roughly the same power that it did at 2500RPM,and will continue to pull the load.
The horsepower and RPM will not continue to fall because the diesels engine's power is not as dependent on the engine's RPM.
This does not mean that I believe gas engines are incapable-quite the contrary-I believe they are best for most people-and for occasionally pulling trailers up to about 12000LBS,as well as being cheaper and having MANY advantages,but as I've said before-the ONLY advantage to a diesel is it's ability to pull,and pull efficiently.
I'd much rather have the gasser myself-less up front cost,less maintenence-IMO the fuel works out the same between gas and diesel,because of the higher oil/filter,plug ins, conditioners,etc,etc.
But don't sit there and try telling me that a v10 will out pull a diesel (in any configurations) it's not happening-and Ford's ratings don't change that.
Point is with SRW truck -with v10 or diesel -you won't be able to pull as much as with duals-plain and simple.
Your absolutely right, but you must remember...
A SRW may be able to tow a heavier trailer, but the dually will tow it SAFER.
A 1/2ton is capable of towing 9100lbs. The F-250 regcab 2wd V-10 5.4L/4r100 3.73 is capable of towing 7300lbs.
Which would you tow with?
Duallys have better stability than SRW trucks.
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How does that make a difference? The gas truck has to be at full throttle to achieve it's rated horsepower,and when climbing hills with really big loads-even at low altitude-the RPM will fall from say 3000 RPM to 2000 RPMs,and it will produce even less power at 2000 RPM than it did at 3000 RPM.
Now at 2000 RPM with much less HP, the load will pull the engine down even further to the point that you have to downshift to get rpms back up again-that's lots of wear.
The diesel has a broader powerband, using the same example, the diesel powered truck running at full throttle encounters the same load as the gas powered truck did,the RPM will fall from say 2500RPM to say 1700RPM.
At 1700 RPM the diesel engine will have roughly the same power that it did at 2500RPM,and will continue to pull the load.
The horsepower and RPM will not continue to fall because the diesels engine's power is not as dependent on the engine's RPM.
Exactly,
The V-10 can get up to highway speed towing the trailer quicker than the diesel. That is essentially the only true advantage towing with one.
Ford is wrong on their own ratings. I will add duallys to my car to magically increase its tow rating. Diesels mysteriously don't need RPM to make power and somehow have broader powerbands than gassers. I'm unsafe because I tow a 40' travel trailer with a ball mount. And DRW diesel dually CC Fords aren't exceeding their GCVWR towing 14,000#'s(whatever GCVWR is because Ford doesn't know what they're talking about)
TRAILER LIFE was wrong when the V10 and PSD were a dead heat pulling a trailer up a grade.
Somehow engines don't have any driveline loss if they're manuals.
And finally, drumroll please, regardless of trailer weight, altitude or even the fact that you may have a stripped down 2WD regular cab V10 against a DRW 4X CC dually diesel the diesel will ALWAYS outpull the gasser.
I understand now. Thanx.
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-27-2003 at 07:27 PM.
If you really feel as though you have learned something DOHC, then , Your Welcome!
If however you are simply at a loss for words and are still unwilling to learn from my real world experiences, then by all means stick to the book -and don't bother wasting either of our time by even responding to this.....thanks
If your "real world experience" includes diesels have broader powerbands, that there is no driveline loss through a manual transmission and you have no clue what a Gross COMBINED vehicle weight rating is, I'll stick to my "real world experience"
This is it grasshopper- I should'int have to teach this much without being compensated for it.
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(REPLY)Well, unfortunatly, the 250 350 SD's cannot safely or legally pull 20k trailers.......so it's kind of a moot point. It appears that we actually agree that in the 8-12k trailer range both motors perform adequately with the diesel getting the nod at altitude. BTW, TRAILER LIFE compared a 275HP V10 against a PSD up a pass with a 7500 trailer and it was a dead heat!!!.
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True the 250/350 is'int "rated" to pull 20,000lbs, forgive my over optimisim, I felt it necessary to address this, when in fact you should have realized on your own what I meant by it-but since it's interfering with your ability to grasp the context of my message-I should clarify it for you(no such thing as a bad student-only a bad teacher) my apologies.
As far as Trailer Life goes, I could'int give a care-maybe those guys all own v10's too -like you do. I have already stated that I am confident in the abilities of the v10 to pull up to 12000lbs-far more than Trailer Life's 7500lbs. Now what would happen if TrailerLife had tagged two 14000lb trailers to those trucks? Would the v10 still keep up? I seriously doubt it.
I am VERY confident in the v10's ability to tow 7500lbs-but not 14000lbs.
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Absolutely!!!! Why in the world would two extra wheels add to towing capacity???? DRW's subtract from tow ratings because the truck is heavier. The GCVWR is a constant,
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They would add to towing capacity by offering a far more stable platform with which to tow-I have already gone over the numbers,
they are safer, and offer more GAWR so as to allow a greater kingpin/tongue load which further enhances stability, they hold the road better,and resist fishtailing much more than SRW trucks do, if you should suffer a blowout-God forbid-you've got a much better chance of maintaining control over the vehicle and it's cargo. None of this is addressed in Ford's calculations.
They give you a flat number and you are to make your deductions from there-that's pure idiocy!
So you can remain confident in your position because it's in agreement with Ford's position, but Ford is'int telling the whole story, not when it says a truck with DRW has less towing ability then an exact same model with SRW.
I will add duallys to my car to magically increase its tow rating.
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Why? Do you feel you need to? Or is it because you don't like hearing that DRW's are better than SRW for towing? What ever you do, just be careful with the magic- don't need a spell gone bad to turn you into a frog- your kid may end up usin' ya for target practice or bait!
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Diesels mysteriously don't need RPM to make power and somehow have broader powerbands than gassers.
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Diesels are in fact less dependent on RPM than gasoline engines for horsepower-your catching on.
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I'm unsafe because I tow a 40' travel trailer with a ball mount.
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Well use 2 ball mounts! No wait, your going to add duallies magically to your car to add towing capability remember?
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TRAILER LIFE was wrong when the V10 and PSD were a dead heat pulling a trailer up a grade.
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No , they got it right-with 7500lbs anyway.
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Somehow engines don't have any driveline loss if they're manuals
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A bit maybe but nothing like an auto tranny does-remember it's rear wheel torque were talkin not HP.
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I'm at a loss why you don't think a manual trans/drivetrain doesn't have a power loss. Example: '96-'98 305 HP Cobras have 270 RWHP. 225 HP 5.0's have aprox 180 at the wheels. 320 HP(underrated) LS1 Camaros run 300HP at the wheels. All these cars are manuals, where did the power go????
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Your talking about HP to the rear wheels-of course it's going to be lower, HP comes from torque and RPM combined-it is not a product of torque alone,but torque and RPM together.
Lets say you lift your rear axle on to a jackstand and then you rev your engine to it's peak HP-not all of it's going to get to the rear wheels, because the power is transferred to and multiplied by the transmission and rear axle to the rear wheels,using a process called "gear reduction"-so while the torque to the rear wheels is multiplied many times over the actual engine torque,the RPM's are significantly reduced-thats why you have less HP at the rear wheels.
This is also why a diesel is able to outpull a gas engine-like in the example I used before-it's not as dependent on rpms as a gasser is because it makes more LOW RPM torque.
High torque+lower RPM's = as much pulling power as Low torque with higher RPM's= and better than low torque+ low RPM.
The reverse is also true-that's why a PSD for all it's low RPM horsepower(2800 peak) will never out race a v10 which produces equal HP at higher RPM(4250 peak).
Well grasshopper,it's time for you to be off now-remember your lessons you have learned-for I shall not teach them again.
As far as Trailer Life goes, I could'int give a care-maybe those guys all own v10's too -like you do. I have already stated that I am confident in the abilities of the v10 to pull up to 12000lbs-far more than Trailer Life's 7500lbs. Now what would happen if TrailerLife had tagged two 14000lb trailers to those trucks? Would the v10 still keep up? I seriously doubt it.
The V10 would still outpull it with 14,000 pounds, with 20,000 pounds, or with 50,000 pounds - the weight doesn't matter. Moving a load takes horsepower, and the engine producing more horsepower will move the load faster - so the V10 will get the load moving faster, and will lose less speed up hills. This is not a debateable point, nor is it merely an opinion - it is a simple fact of physics. If you don't believe me, just ask a physics professor.
The key thing here is that the horsepower figure that matters is the horsepower at the operating RPM. For example, a diesel produces more horsepower than a V10 at 2,500 RPM, no question there - so if both were running at that speed, the diesel would win hands-down. However, the V10 has the advantage of gearing - where the diesel is running in 4th, the V10 can run in 3rd and at that RPM produces more horsepower than the diesel. This is the reason diesels produce such large torque numbers but relatively small horsepower numbers - because they can't rev up nearly as high as gassers.
Horsepower is (torque x RPM)/5252
So, an engine producing 500 ft-lbs at 2000rpm is producing 190hp, and so is an engine producing 400 ft-lbs at 2500rpm, and so is an engine producing 333 ft-lbs at 3000rpm. All three of these engines are capable of doing the same amount of work, even though the first engine produces quite a bit more torque - because they all produce the same amount of horsepower.
Another example - the 5.4L V8 produces 350 ft-lbs at 2,500 rpm...which works out to 167 horsepower at that RPM. The 7.3L PSD (manual) produces 520 ft-lbs at 1600rpm - which works out to 158 horsepower. So, a 5.4L V8 running 2,500 rpm will tow a larger trailer than a 7.3L PSD running 1,600 rpm. I generally tow with my 5.4L turning at 2,500-3,000rpm - and at those RPMs the 5.4L produces about the same amount of power as the PSD turning 1,600-2,000rpm. If the guy in the PSD has to downshift for a hill, so will I - but I'll be able to keep up.
As I've said several times, the diesel will last longer and get better mileage - and if I towed a heavy load on a regular basis I'd have one. And, as another poster mentioned, this also depends on elevation - at higher elevations the horsepower output is different. Both the gasser and the turbo-diesel lose horsepower, but I would have to look up the exact loss at different altitudes for each engine type to see how they would relate.
They would add to towing capacity by offering a far more stable platform with which to tow-I have already gone over the numbers, they are safer, and offer more GAWR so as to allow a greater kingpin/tongue load which further enhances stability, they hold the road better,and resist fishtailing much more than SRW trucks do,
This is all true - but, these are outside the scope of the manufacturer's recommendations. Whether or not a driver can pull a particular trailer safely depends on the abilities of the driver just as much as (if not more than) on the abilities of the truck. The manufacturer has a tough time singling out bad drivers from good drivers, so all we can do is just provide the limitations of the equipment - we aren't aware of the limitations of the driver. Not that the manufacturer can't be held *responsible* for bad drivers, as we found out in the Explorer fiasco.
Heck, the safety institutes won't even let us train the drivers better - because they think we are trying to suggest that driving ability might play some part in safety, which they deny. So, we can't refuse to sell trucks to idiots because that's discrimination - and we can't train them better, because then we're "trying to avoid our responsibility for design limitations" - so basically all we can do is build each truck assuming that the average buyer has the intelligence of a bowl of Grape-Nuts. And, people STILL manage to find new ways to be dumb...and we're held responsible for it in court. Grape-Nuts are Stephen Hawking compared to some of these people...
Okay, I've wandered off-topic.
Anyway, we really can't get into the safety issue when we do the ratings - all we can do is provide the limitations of the equipment, mainly for warranty purposes. And, as far as the limitations of the equipment go, the ratings are correct - a DRW pickup can't tow as much as a SRW pickup.
Diesels are in fact less dependent on RPM than gasoline engines for horsepower-your catching on.
Not sure where you're saying here - if you're saying that gassers have to turn higher RPMs to produce horsepower, that's true. However, horsepower is calculated the same way no matter if the engine is gas or diesel.
Your talking about HP to the rear wheels-of course it's going to be lower, HP comes from torque and RPM combined-it is not a product of torque alone,but torque and RPM together.
Lets say you lift your rear axle on to a jackstand and then you rev your engine to it's peak HP-not all of it's going to get to the rear wheels, because the power is transferred to and multiplied by the transmission and rear axle to the rear wheels,using a process called "gear reduction"-so while the torque to the rear wheels is multiplied many times over the actual engine torque,the RPM's are significantly reduced-thats why you have less HP at the rear wheels.
Nope. The loss is due to mainly to friction, which turns the energy into heat - which is why your rear diff heats up, for example. Or, in the case of the auto tranny pump, some of the horsepower has another "output" - and in that case the energy is transferred into the movement of the tranny fluid. Every component the power goes through (tranny, transfer case, axle, and so on) is less than 100% efficient, so the output is less than the input.
I don't mean to sound like I'm giving a lecture, or to be overly harsh - and I usually don't bother to get involved in arguments. However, this is what I do for a living (automotive/mechanical engineer - I'm not a professional arguer ), so when discussions hit this close to home I tend to get involved.
So, to make a long story short - we don't come up with those numbers out of thin air, they are the result of a lot of different calculations.
Still won't agree on the DRW's ADDING tow capacity(it actually decreases it) the safety issue is obviously a personal point of view, I hope franky wears his helmet to bed.......who knows, he might fall out during the night.
His broken record argument of the increased ability of pin weight because of DRW always leaves out the GCVWR. I don't care that you can have a 4000 pound pin weight when you're limited to a 10k trailer because of the COMBINED weight. Do you think you could explain that one to him????
You forgot to set him straight on the "broad powerband of the diesel" Almost fell out of my chair laughing at that one.
The only problem with all this(boy, Pastmaster will be ecstatic) is the G2 does have 15(?) more HP than the V10. But with past diesels I'm waiting to see how responsive the G2 will be.
Buddy picked his up last night(G2) was saying for weeks how he couldn't wait to run me. Now he wants to wait for us to have equal loads. I'm wondering if the old turbo lag has him worried!!!
I'm more curious than confident.......I think the PSD(G2) is a heck of a mill.
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-28-2003 at 02:00 PM.
Sorry but I'm not a believer, real world experiences have shown me otherwise inspite of all the theoretical hoopla.
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The V10 would still outpull it with 14,000 pounds, with 20,000 pounds, or with 50,000 pounds - the weight doesn't matter. Moving a load takes horsepower, and the engine producing more horsepower will move the load faster - so the V10 will get the load moving faster, and will lose less speed up hills. This is not a debateable point, nor is it merely an opinion - it is a simple fact of physics. If you don't believe me, just ask a physics professor.
Your discounting alot about the way the two engines work, any gasser is going to be more susceptible to being overloaded and overheating , encountering those kinds conditions the diesel is going to outperform the gasser,because in the real world people just don't pull 14,000lb trailers at 4250 RPM's.
Just like in the real world -duallies mean alot of difference in handling , towing ability, and safety.
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The key thing here is that the horsepower figure that matters is the horsepower at the operating RPM. For example, a diesel produces more horsepower than a V10 at 2,500 RPM, no question there - so if both were running at that speed, the diesel would win hands-down. However, the V10 has the advantage of gearing - where the diesel is running in 4th, the V10 can run in 3rd and at that RPM produces more horsepower than the diesel. This is the reason diesels produce such large torque numbers but relatively small horsepower numbers - because they can't rev up nearly as high as gassers
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What advantage? Of course any engine running in third is going to be reving higher and harder than in a higher gear.
Same thing is true for the diesel, this dos'ent prove anything.
The real test is when the two engines are left running in drive gear, and when they encounter the loads placed on them going up a grade-even at low altitude- both are going to lose RPM's from the weight pulling down on them (gravity) ,. However, the diesel is going to be less effected by this encountered load because it does indeed as you say produce more power ( HP ) at lower RPM, then gasoline engines do.
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Another example - the 5.4L V8 produces 350 ft-lbs at 2,500 rpm...which works out to 167 horsepower at that RPM. The 7.3L PSD (manual) produces 520 ft-lbs at 1600rpm - which works out to 158 horsepower. So, a 5.4L V8 running 2,500 rpm will tow a larger trailer than a 7.3L PSD running 1,600 rpm.
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This is more theoretical hoopla thrown into the mix, and has little to do with what I've called real world experience.
So according to this a F150 with 5.4L and 7700lb payload package should be able to tow more under these circumstances than a F350 PSD diesel, as long as the hitch load is within the F150's GAWR and trailer hitch rating? And even more so if the diesel has the added weight of the DRW?
LOL!!! DOHC , must be getting off on this! His v10 SRW is the baddest truck on the planet!! lol.
But really, how many people tow at 1600 RPM's? My guess is about as many as tow at 4250 RPM's.
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Not sure where you're saying here - if you're saying that gassers have to turn higher RPMs to produce horsepower, that's true. However, horsepower is calculated the same way no matter if the engine is gas or diesel.
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Agreed, and this statement is why the diesel will outpull the gasser in the real world regardless of all the theories.
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Nope. The loss is due to mainly to friction, which turns the energy into heat - which is why your rear diff heats up, for example. Or, in the case of the auto tranny pump, some of the horsepower has another "output" - and in that case the energy is transferred into the movement of the tranny fluid. Every component the power goes through (tranny, transfer case, axle, and so on) is less than 100% efficient, so the output is less than the input.
You can see this in an ordinary garden hose, if you put it up against a fan just turn it on you don't see much pressure, but reduce the opening with the same amount of water running through the hose, and you will see greater pressure, the fan starts spinning, thats torque, now multiply it by the RPM's and you got HP.
So there it is HP loss through reduction, I was NEVER talking about HP to the rear wheels, if you look back in to these posts a bit you will see I was talking about TORQUE, and how it is multiplied through gearing to the rear wheels,-but that was to hard a concept for DOHC to comprehend, so he turned it into HP-which was never my point to begin with.
Besides how on earth could you even go about obtaining rear wheel HP with out first knowing the torque and RPM's involved?
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His broken record argument of the increased ability of pin weight because of DRW always leaves out the GCVWR. I don't care that you can have a 4000 pound pin weight when you're limited to a 10k trailer because of the COMBINED weight. Do you think you could explain that one to him????
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I know your weights and numbers very well for myself thank you anyway, but it still dos'ent change anything with regard to how a DRW will outmuscle a SRW when it comes to handling bigger trailers.
How much you can REALLY tow, depends above all else on how SAFELY you can tow it, and all things considered you will never be able to safely handle heavy trailers as well with SRW as you could with DRW, the more safely you can tow, the more you can tow-simple logic, and above your head.
Anyway, I do appreciate your imput LK-while I don't necessarily agree with all of it, It was somewhat enlightening, I've enjoyed debating with you thus far.
DOHC, you got some studying to do bro, I feel for you, I think even you can at least appreciate that you are taking part in a debate which is way over your head, but good luck bro.
yada yada yada... isn't this thread titled f350 vs ram 3500
i just want to add my 3 cents worth, even tho im not going to get technical like everyone else....
you don't see the v10 running in any f450s or 550s on the road. those trucks are made for working and for pulling. you also see the majority of those trucks, as well as trucks even larger than them, with manual transmissions, because frankly... automatic transmissions suck for pulling heavy loads. and when i mean heavy i mean 10 tons worth of trailer and another 3 tons on the back of an f450 at 65 miles an hour, most trips to exceed 100 miles - none of this candyass 12,000 pound races up hills to see whos the fastest. my f150 could pull a 12,00 pound trailer up a hill (topped out in 4 low!) the real world is the real test. you don't see any single rear wheel trucks pulling loads on the highways. why? because they are less safe, less stable, and are capable of pulling less. shore, the tow ratings will go down because your adding more weight and you have to turn another wheel, yippe skippy. you'll still outpull a single rear wheel any day with duallies. its a whole new ballgame as far as stability is concerned. and when your maxxing your truck out and going overweight, stability is very important. i know, i live on a farm, and we are always overloading our trucks, because we are dumb redneck farmers. ive towed with the 7.3 psd with a single rear wheel and an automatic- an f350, and ive towed with a 7.3 psd with dual rear wheels and a 6 speed- an f450, both under many conditions and weights, and you can't even compare the two. manual transmission is far superior- maybe not when your talking calculations but in the real world it is. so much more control of what your doing, and you can hold your shifts until your ready, both accelerating and decelerating. dual rear wheels allow you to carry and pull so much more weight. the more your truck weighs, the more you can pull, because you have weight to counter the trailer. its a basic law of farmboy physics that a heavier tractor or truck will pull a heavier load. duh... you get more traction to the ground. i bet your physics professors never taught you that, because they never pulled anything for a living before. lighter trucks get left spinning in truck pulls, and lighter tractors get stuck in the field when they are pulling implements. heavier is always better. except when it comes to women.
"So there it is HP loss through reduction, I was NEVER talking about HP to the rear wheels, if you look back in to these posts a bit you will see I was talking about TORQUE, and how it is multiplied through gearing to the rear wheels,-but that was to hard a concept for DOHC to comprehend, so he turned it into HP-which was never my point to begin with."
Please show me where I turned anything around from anything.
I simply showed how (as with most things you say) your logic was flawed when you said the automatic in the V10 put less torque to the rear wheels because of driveline loss. You still have not answered how a manual has no driveline loss. Oh yea there was something about you watering your lawn.......more nonsence as it relates to this topic. Just that fact that oil(whether it be 90weight or ATF is in a trans case should be enough for anyone to know there is loss.
Your idiotic "DRW out muscles" comment is typical to your jibberish. You are trying to save face by throwing in all this safety crap. Are you Ralph Nadar's brother??? The bottom line is The SRW is rated to tow more in the 250/350 configs. Just give it a rest. Pulling 10K off a ball mount, DRW adds no capacity. What is so hard to understand about this? If pulling a 10K fiver with a 2k pin weight DRW will absolutely allow more payload but it won't increase the amount able to be towed. AND IT's ALL MOOT IF YOU EXCEED THE GCVWR, which i believe you still don't/won't understand.
Now you change the subject(again to save face) that the gasser will be overworked or overheat or whatever it was you were mumbling about. The fact is the V10 with 4.30's will do everything the diesel will do albeit slightly slower at altitude.
What's funny is at first we actually agreed on the diesel vs. gasser to a 12k towing limit which is the actual real world limits of these trucks(250/350) anyway because of the GCombined VWR.
I did get a chuckle how I'm over my head but LK's responses were acceptable when we're are both trying to tell you the same thing. Almost think someone is starting to take this personal............franky???
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-28-2003 at 04:00 PM.
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Not that the manufacturer can't be held *responsible* for bad drivers, as we found out in the Explorer fiasco.
