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Received: with LISTAR (v0.128a; list small-list); Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:23:29 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:23:29 -0500 (EST)
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To: small-list digest users ford-trucks.com>
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Subject: small-list Digest V2000 #32
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small-list Digest Sat, 18 Mar 2000 Volume: 2000 Issue: 032

In This Issue:
Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters
Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters
Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters
Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters
Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters
Re: [Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters]
Fuel Pumps-In Tank

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith Christensen" kendra.com>
Subject: Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:21:42 -0800

Just having gone thru an expensive troubleshooting episode that involved 3 s
hops...

('88 Bronco II, but damned near same exhaust system)

Yes , the catalytic converter ('cat') can be tested for clogging/backpressur
e ('BP')by drilling a small hole and inserting a probe, but this episode sho
ws that either the test and/or the interpretation can be bogus.

My cat showed it's problems by making the injection go intermittently "full
rich/full on" (massive black smoke, loss of power at anything less than full
-throttle). I knew I had a "deteriorated exhaust system' - holes in the muf
fler, seams on the cat starting to break, tailpipe looking like swiss cheese
...

First shop (small independent) tested it, showed no problem *by their interp
retation* They replaced the "O2" sensor, and threw in the towel. Told me to
take it to a Ford shop.

Second (Ford dealer) tested the cat -said OK , but replaced the HGO sensor.
The engine ran far better, but it STILL went thru small episodes of black sm
oke.. they said the 'puter just needed to "relearn" the new sensor..

I 'spent the big bucks' ( I know I had to anyway- just sooner than expected)
and had the cat/muffler/tailpipe-resonator replaced... no BP check, so there
's no way of qualifying the Ford/Indie shop's readings, but the muffler guy
spotted the BP test holes as fresh. He cuts open the cat as an autopsy and
finds thae back screen in the post-fire section 3/4 plugged and part of the
internal "bed" support in the prefire section broken so that it could (and d
id) move into the bottleneck between pre-post chambers.

Agreed, he's not tested it, but his feel is that this cat would have tested
in the high end of OK as long as the vehicle wasn't being 'loaded' by actual
driving. Put a 'true' driving load on it and crap happens!

I think he's right-- it runs better now than it has in 4 months, the low-en
d torque is at least 40% more than berore.

NOW, the computer system does have something to "relearn", and it's running
FAR better!


------------------------------
From: "Ron,Marge,Ted" sunlink.net>
Subject: Constipated Catalytic Converters
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:15:09 -0500
>Hi All,

> Since I don't usually drive my wife's 94 Explorer much, it takes me awh
ile to notice any changes in it. Well >it seems to me that it is running kin
d of sluggish, especially on the hills here in PA. We use to get about 22 >m
pg on a trip with it, but last weekend, we took a trip and only came up with
18 mpgs! In the past, we had >problems with it pinging, so I think I may hav
e over did it with injector cleaner trying to get rid of carbon >build-up. M
y gut feeling is that the sluggish performance and drop in gas mileage may b
e due to plugged >up catalytic converters because of over use of injector cl
eaners. My question is, is there any way to test for a >defective cat conver
ter other than just replacing it? Thanks for any help!
>
> Ron


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Spam Unwelcome Here*
Don't believe me?? Want to see what
can show up in front of YOUR place?
Check out lower left photo at:
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.robertstech.com/gallery/page13.htm
(Courtesy of Seattle Times)



------------------------------

From: "Stephen Bozzone" rockzone.com>
Subject: Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:46:10 -0500

Keith,

What is this "HGO" sensor? I've never heard of it before.

Thanks,
Stephen Bozzone
1988 Ford Bronco II Eddie Bauer
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://rockzone.com/mud/truck.shtml
ICQ: 196843 / AIM: RudeSkam69
"Don't ask me to justify my life..." - Bad Religion

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Christensen kendra.com>
To: ford-trucks.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 3:21 AM
Subject: [small-list] Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters


> Just having gone thru an expensive troubleshooting episode that involved 3
s
> hops...
>
> ('88 Bronco II, but damned near same exhaust system)
>
> Yes , the catalytic converter ('cat') can be tested for
clogging/backpressur
> e ('BP')by drilling a small hole and inserting a probe, but this episode
sho
> ws that either the test and/or the interpretation can be bogus.
>
> My cat showed it's problems by making the injection go intermittently
"full
> rich/full on" (massive black smoke, loss of power at anything less than
full
> -throttle). I knew I had a "deteriorated exhaust system' - holes in the
muf
> fler, seams on the cat starting to break, tailpipe looking like swiss
cheese
> ...
>
> First shop (small independent) tested it, showed no problem *by their
interp
> retation* They replaced the "O2" sensor, and threw in the towel. Told me
to
> take it to a Ford shop.
>
> Second (Ford dealer) tested the cat -said OK , but replaced the HGO
sensor.
> The engine ran far better, but it STILL went thru small episodes of black
sm
> oke.. they said the 'puter just needed to "relearn" the new sensor..
>
> I 'spent the big bucks' ( I know I had to anyway- just sooner than
expected)
> and had the cat/muffler/tailpipe-resonator replaced... no BP check, so
there
> 's no way of qualifying the Ford/Indie shop's readings, but the muffler
guy
> spotted the BP test holes as fresh. He cuts open the cat as an autopsy
and
> finds thae back screen in the post-fire section 3/4 plugged and part of
the
> internal "bed" support in the prefire section broken so that it could (and
d
> id) move into the bottleneck between pre-post chambers.
>
> Agreed, he's not tested it, but his feel is that this cat would have
tested
> in the high end of OK as long as the vehicle wasn't being 'loaded' by
actual
> driving. Put a 'true' driving load on it and crap happens!
>
> I think he's right-- it runs better now than it has in 4 months, the
low-en
> d torque is at least 40% more than berore.
>
> NOW, the computer system does have something to "relearn", and it's
running
> FAR better!
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: "Ron,Marge,Ted" sunlink.net>
> Subject: Constipated Catalytic Converters
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:15:09 -0500
> >Hi All,
>
> > Since I don't usually drive my wife's 94 Explorer much, it takes me
awh
> ile to notice any changes in it. Well >it seems to me that it is running
kin
> d of sluggish, especially on the hills here in PA. We use to get about 22
>m
> pg on a trip with it, but last weekend, we took a trip and only came up
with
> 18 mpgs! In the past, we had >problems with it pinging, so I think I may
hav
> e over did it with injector cleaner trying to get rid of carbon >build-up.
M
> y gut feeling is that the sluggish performance and drop in gas mileage may
b
> e due to plugged >up catalytic converters because of over use of injector
cl
> eaners. My question is, is there any way to test for a >defective cat
conver
> ter other than just replacing it? Thanks for any help!
> >
> > Ron
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> *Spam Unwelcome Here*
> Don't believe me?? Want to see what
> can show up in front of YOUR place?
> Check out lower left photo at:
> http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.robertstech.com/gallery/page13.htm
> (Courtesy of Seattle Times)
>
>
> ==========================================================
> To unsubscribe, send email to: listar ford-trucks.com with
> the words "unsubscribe small-list" in the subject of the
> message.


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:56:26 -0500
From: David Cooley bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters

At 12:46 PM 3/18/00, you wrote:
>Keith,
>
>What is this "HGO" sensor? I've never heard of it before.


I think he meant HEGO... Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor... the O2 sensor.


===========================================================
David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT bellsouth.net
Packet: N5XMT KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068
We are Borg... Prepare to be assimilated!
===========================================================


------------------------------

From: BiggRanger aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:00:01 EST
Subject: Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters

HGO or HEGO. HEGO standds for Heated Exahust Gas Oxygen sensor. O2 sensors
don't work properly untill the platinum tip is about 600 degrees. So to get
it up to temp faster Ford put a heater in it. Plain old o2 sensors usualy
have 1 or 2 wires. While HEGO sensors have 3 or 4.




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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:39:35 -0500
From: David Cooley bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters

At 01:00 PM 3/18/00, you wrote:
>HGO or HEGO. HEGO standds for Heated Exahust Gas Oxygen sensor. O2 sensors
>don't work properly untill the platinum tip is about 600 degrees. So to get
>it up to temp faster Ford put a heater in it. Plain old o2 sensors usualy
>have 1 or 2 wires. While HEGO sensors have 3 or 4.


Don't credit ford. All manufacturers went to heated O2's in the late 80's.

===========================================================
David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT bellsouth.net
Packet: N5XMT KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068
We are Borg... Prepare to be assimilated!
===========================================================


------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 00 18:23:20 EST
From: Tim Turner netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Constipated Catalytic Converters]

"Keith Christensen" kendra.com> wrote:
> Just having gone thru an expensive troubleshooting episode that involved 3
s
> hops...
>
> ('88 Bronco II, but damned near same exhaust system)
>
> Yes , the catalytic converter ('cat') can be tested for
clogging/backpressur
> e ('BP')by drilling a small hole and inserting a probe,

Or by screwing the tester into the O2 socket to avoid intorducing new holes
into the exhaust.

> but this episode sho
> ws that either the test and/or the interpretation can be bogus.

Especially in the type of fialure you had.. more on that later. There is
certainly a 'grey area' using a BP tester though.

> spotted the BP test holes as fresh. He cuts open the cat as an autopsy and
> finds thae back screen in the post-fire section 3/4 plugged and part of the
> internal "bed" support in the prefire section broken so that it could (and
d
> id) move into the bottleneck between pre-post chambers.

And as long as it was *not* in the blocked position BP might have been in the
'possibly restricted' area but hard to call solely from the guage and for
solving an intermittant problem... well I can understand the first shop's
reluctance to call it. Possibly if they had tested the exterior of the
converter with an IR thermometer the bad rear section would have been spotted
from not being as hot as it should, but again that can be a grey area too.
Exhaust emissions would probably have been somewhat high also but again not
necessarily enough to fail it.

>
> Agreed, he's not tested it, but his feel is that this cat would have tested
> in the high end of OK as long as the vehicle wasn't being 'loaded' by
actual
> driving. Put a 'true' driving load on it and crap happens!

I'd agree; some of my grey hairs come from scenarios like this. :-)

> ------------------------------
> From: "Ron,Marge,Ted" sunlink.net>


> My question is, is there any way to test for a >defective cat conver
> ter other than just replacing it? Thanks for any help!

1)Back Pressure under load
2)Vacuum at high RPM
3)Temperature change across the converter
4)4 (or 5) gas exhaust analysis
5)Remove and inspect/replace

The first 4 can all be in a 'pass' condition singly, but a combination of 2 or
more in marginal condition would suggest replacement.

Tim


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:23:09 -0800
From: Adam McLaughlin jps.net>
Subject: Fuel Pumps-In Tank

Who here has dropped the fuel tank of the Bronco II?

I am having lugging, surging problems with mine, and I would like to get
that fuel tank down to check it out, or replace the pump, but everything
is so darn heavy! There is about 21 or 20 gallons of gas in there now,
and I know that the less gas there is in there, the easier this will be,
but I shouldn't be driving around on a weak gas pump.

3" suspension lift, 2" bpdy lift make it easy to see on top of it.

I have replaced the high pressure pump, fuel filter, fuel pressure
regulator and fuel injectors.

Adam


------------------------------....


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