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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:48:21 -0600 (MDT)
From: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net (fordtrucks-digest)
To: fordtrucks-digest ListService.net
Subject: fordtrucks-digest V1 #234
Reply-To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Sender: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net


fordtrucks-digest Monday, September 22 1997 Volume 01 : Number 234



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 And Older Trucks Digest
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message.
=======================================================================
In this issue:

Header help w/302 [Joe D ]
Re: Header help w/302 ["deconblu" ]
Re: BTUs 'R' Us..! ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: BTUs 'R' Us..! ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: too much cam? ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: 351M Cam Timing ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
RE: too much cam? [Sleddog ]
RE: 351M Cam Timing [Sleddog ]
RE: too much cam? [Sleddog ]
Re: heater controls??? [rick adc.com (Rick Larson)]
RE: 52 F1 Help [RICHARD_GARBER HP-USA-om21.om.hp.com]
thank but... [KEVIN ]
RE: 351M Cam Timing [pharrell bae.uga.edu (Graphics & Research Fabricatio]
RE: thank but... [Sleddog ]
Re: 351M Cam Timing ["Dave Resch"]
Re: Flathead Help ["George Shepherd" ]
Re: Another Acronym [BigDogF250 aol.com]
Re: Header help w/302 [Joe D ]
Re: Header help w/302 ["deconblu" ]

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:49:09 -0400
From: Joe D
Subject: Header help w/302

Anybody know where i can find Headers for a 302 in a 4x4 68 f100????
I see them for the 2wheel drive but no 4wheel????anybody from 68-72 have
a small block w/headers???will 2 wheel drive ones work or interfer
with the front driveshaft etc...
joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 04:35:47 -0700
From: "deconblu"
Subject: Re: Header help w/302

>Anybody know where i can find Headers for a 302 in a 4x4 68 f100????
>I see them for the 2wheel drive but no 4wheel????anybody from 68-72 have
>a small block w/headers???will 2 wheel drive ones work or interfer
>with the front driveshaft etc...
>joe


Sounds like your interested in long tube headers, but I used stock '93
shorties off a 5.0 Mustang. There's a huge weld inside that blocks-up the
exhaust. I ground the welds smooth and they flow much better. I used the EGR
connection for my choke. Best thing is they don't interfere with anything
and you can pick up sets dirt cheap. I think there was a guy on the
fordnatics list that was selling his for $35.
I have a picture at my site of the engine. They are hard to see (I painted
them black) but if you look close you can see them on the drivers side. Good
luck with yours!

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/mytruck.htm

Deacon Blues
Visit my Homepage at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/
and http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.dragonfire.net/~site/tbirdknights/
or send me a fan or flame at deconblu gte.net not both. Never fan a flame!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:01:34 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: BTUs 'R' Us..!

> From: danadeb pacbell.net
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:44:04 -0700
> Subject: Re: BTUs 'R' Us..!

> seemed to fill the heater core. ( my guess, which still does not
> make any sense, was that the heater core had an air bubble trapped
> in it ) after I did this the heater blew lots of hot air.

Yes it does. The water pump doesn't really do a heck of a lot to
circulate the water like you might think and air pockets can form in
the heads and heater core on some applications which is why I always
pull the top heater core hose when filling a dry engine to let the
air out. I also crack the thermostat seal till coolant runs out to
let the air out of the heads. Theoretically if you take the top
hose off at the thermostat or water pump and leave it off till
coolant runs out it does the same as cracking the thermostat
housing but I've had them not cooperate this way so I do both to
make sure now. I've had engines spit and sputter with the radiator
completely full when they started to warm up which led me to this
"new technique" which I now use on all engines I work on.

BTW, on Ford engines if the radiator is not completely full (hot) the
heater won't work since it won't circulate through the core. You can
easily prove this to yourself buy lowering the radiator level a few
inches below the top of the core and run the heater. The heater
core is located at a horizontal height right at the top level of the
radiator and is essentially gravity fed. In spite of having a pump
the coolant still tends to seek it's own level.

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:13:21 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: BTUs 'R' Us..!

> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:31:00 -0500
> From: dave.williams chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
> Subject: Re: BTUs 'R' Us..!

> Also make sure that one of the heater hoses comes off the intake -
> the
> water is hotter at the back, by the way - and the other hose goes to
> the water pump. I saw one car where someone had run both hoses to

Since the heater core is part of the circulation system before the
thermostat opens you should have a line on both sides ot the
thermostat by what ever means is availiable. Usually one line to the
manifold or thermostat housing and one to the pump. Some I've seen
have two coming off the pump which is a little confusing. With water
fed intakes it's easier to figure out :-)

On systems with control valves the principles are the same except
there is pobably a bypass for the pre hot block circulation and for
summer operation. These are generic principles you can use to
analyze your system and figure out the best solution but the block
must have a free route around the thermostat or it will over heat
before the thermostat can open and if the heater core is connected to
the same side of the thermostat on both hoses it can't circulate so
won't get hot as already mentioned by someone :-)

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:28:06 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: too much cam?

> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:01:05 -0500
> From: KEVIN
> Subject: too much cam?

> The cam I bought was a Melling (sae 282 int 292 exh.advertised
> duration- 204int. 214exh .050 lash)valve lift .050 is=.486
> int-512exh I am using stock heads with a 390 4 barrel intake and a
> 4160 holley(750cfm vacumm secondaries)
>
> is this too much?Will I need better than stock springs?How can I

I used a Melling similar to yours in my 460 with dished pistons and
had no problem. It was rated as a stock repalcement with no
modifications and had a .520 lift as I recall but comments about the
springs probably are in order. I didn't know much about it at the
time but if I did it now I would at least invest in new stock springs
and probably go for better than stock as well as checking for bind
which I never did either. My roller cam will have dual springs and I
will be checking for bind for sure.

The consensus seems to be to have at least .100" clearance with the
piston throughout the cycle on both valves. That can mean that if
you break a timing chain the valves can hit and destroy the engine
but as long as the timing chain or gears are intact it allows for
some float and some timing inconsistancys due to wear etc.. I
certainly wouldn't want any less than that :-)


The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:32:39 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: 351M Cam Timing

> From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
> Subject: 351M Cam Timing
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:09:24 -0500

> "some '70's and '80's 351M and 400M engines had their cam
> timing retarded for emissions purposes. Going back to the "0",
> or straight-up spec on these engines really wakes them up.

I was told that the change was made in 1971 and another one in 1973
on the 460's so the M's may follow the same schedule. I alway buy
cams and timing gear for pre 71 vintage motors for this reason.
Don't know how much of it is true but I do know they made some
serious changes it 73 to several models especially the 351W.


The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:10:36 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: too much cam?

no, i don't think it is too much. that size cam should run very well. as
for the springs, call the cam company - they'll tell you what spring
pressure you need, if you need more than stock. if the springs are old i
would replace them with all new hardare (springs, retainers, etc.)

you have to check for binding and "proper" geometry, but i think the stock
rockers are fine for that cam. you need to remove a spring and turn engine
by hand with a indicator to check clearance, or remove head and use clay.

most importantly, GET A GOOD OIL PUMP SHAFT!!! really, it is worth the
money.

sleddog

- ----------
From: KEVIN[SMTP:oldsmo swbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 1997 6:01 PM
To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Subject: too much cam?

Ok ya'll I own a '75 F100 explorer with a 390 automatic.I pulled the
motor and went thru it,while building it(to stock specs)i wanted a
little bigger cam.So I called City Motor Supply (here in DFW) and bought
ahigh pressure oil pump(opened the oil passage to 1/2 from 5/16 at the
oil pickup hole on the block and matched the pick up).
The cam I bought was a Melling (sae 282 int 292 exh.advertised
duration- 204int. 214exh .050 lash)valve lift .050 is=.486
int-512exh
I am using stock heads with a 390 4 barrel intake and a 4160
holley(750cfm vacumm secondaries)

is this too much?Will I need better than stock springs?How can I check
valve to piston clearence (the motor is already assembled)will I need
adj rocker arms?will a stock oil pumpdrive shaft be enough or will I
need a chrome moly one?is timing mars best at 6 12 o'clock or should
they be advanced or retarded?

thanks to all of you!!!!!!!!mongo






+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:21:10 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: 351M Cam Timing

the same change was made to the 460's. but, every company i have talked to
for cams mentioned that their cam should still be straight up. the
difference is already ground in. only moving the factory cam makes a
difference, as ford ground the cams 4 or so degrees off.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Gary, 78 BBB[SMTP:gpeters3 ford.com]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 1997 4:32 AM
To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Subject: Re: 351M Cam Timing

> From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
> Subject: 351M Cam Timing
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:09:24 -0500

> "some '70's and '80's 351M and 400M engines had their cam
> timing retarded for emissions purposes. Going back to the "0",
> or straight-up spec on these engines really wakes them up.

I was told that the change was made in 1971 and another one in 1973
on the 460's so the M's may follow the same schedule. I alway buy
cams and timing gear for pre 71 vintage motors for this reason.
Don't know how much of it is true but I do know they made some
serious changes it 73 to several models especially the 351W.


The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --






+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
+-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:18:57 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: too much cam?

when i called ford svo for my last engine build, i was told that 0.050"
piston-valve clearance i could "get away with". i never checked though as
i was told my combo could take over .560 lift and i have only .530 or so.
i know i should've checked but as it was i finished the build/swap and
broke in cam at 4:00 and pulled with it at 7:00. was still working on the
truck at trackside. in fact some things i still haven't finished over 1 yr
later.......

oh, it's a 460.

sleddog
- ----------
From: Gary, 78 BBB[SMTP:gpeters3 ford.com]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 1997 4:28 AM
To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Subject: Re: too much cam?

> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:01:05 -0500
> From: KEVIN
> Subject: too much cam?

> The cam I bought was a Melling (sae 282 int 292 exh.advertised
> duration- 204int. 214exh .050 lash)valve lift .050 is=.486
> int-512exh I am using stock heads with a 390 4 barrel intake and a
> 4160 holley(750cfm vacumm secondaries)
>
> is this too much?Will I need better than stock springs?How can I

I used a Melling similar to yours in my 460 with dished pistons and
had no problem. It was rated as a stock repalcement with no
modifications and had a .520 lift as I recall but comments about the
springs probably are in order. I didn't know much about it at the
time but if I did it now I would at least invest in new stock springs
and probably go for better than stock as well as checking for bind
which I never did either. My roller cam will have dual springs and I
will be checking for bind for sure.

The consensus seems to be to have at least .100" clearance with the
piston throughout the cycle on both valves. That can mean that if
you break a timing chain the valves can hit and destroy the engine
but as long as the timing chain or gears are intact it allows for
some float and some timing inconsistancys due to wear etc.. I
certainly wouldn't want any less than that :-)


The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --






+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
+-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:02:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: rick adc.com (Rick Larson)
Subject: Re: heater controls???

Dave writes:

> My '68 has slides. They're quite stiff. Has anyone tried a motorcycle
> cable oiler or something? I'm always afraid I'm going to rip the
> sliders out of the dash tugging on them.

If your '68 is like my '71, you might want to check the air diverter.
Mine easily sticks due to rust when controling the off/heat/defrost switch.
FWIW, the temp slider moves fine.

rick
- --
Rick Larson rick adc.com
Minneapolis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 12:19:21 -0400
From: RICHARD_GARBER HP-USA-om21.om.hp.com
Subject: RE: 52 F1 Help

Item Subject: Text Item
My 54 sat for 20 years and your problem sounds very similar. Check
the points. Mine had built up resistance and did not make contact.
Close the points and ohm out them out. Also, mine didn't turnover
correctly, mice had invaded the bell housing and filled it seat cover.
Let us know.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:00:45 -0500
From: KEVIN
Subject: thank but...

Ok,first I want to say thank to everyone who gave me advise handed down
from the ages and from screwing up!
Now I have another one for ya'll.Sleddog said somthing about being able
to check piston to valve clearence with a good dial indicator.I would
assume that you pop a sping loose and put the cylinder to top dead
center and see how far the valve drops before it hits the piston,with
the indicator set on the stem of the valve?
Can someone tell me if I'm wrong and tell me correct way to do it just
shy of pulling the heads.

Thanks mongo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 13:18:56 EDT
From: pharrell bae.uga.edu (Graphics & Research Fabrication)
Subject: RE: 351M Cam Timing

>the same change was made to the 460's. but, every company i have talked
>to for cams mentioned that their cam should still be straight up. the
>difference is already ground in. only moving the factory cam makes a
>difference, as ford ground the cams 4 or so degrees off.
- --------------------
So Ford ground in a 4 degree retard? Melling told me the RV cam I bought
had a 4 degree advance ground in, and yeah, they said set it straight up
or with no more than a 4 degree advance. Do you think the stock cam in my
1980 302 had a retard built in?

Patrick
pharrell bae.uga.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:34:33 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: thank but...

if you were to use clay, it only tells you the min clearance. using a dial
ind. you can get the clearance at any crank angle. minimum valve
clearance, or max lift, is not always at TDC. so:

remove a spring from intake and exhaust. use a very light spring to make
it easier. places like lunati sell testing springs for things like
checking puchrod length or find your own. using the dial ind on the valve
stem (actually on retainer since you need the rocker to get the cam
profile. crank the piston to TDC, then turn crank fwd, then reverse.
take a measurement of the difference between the valve at cam lift and
then touching piston. this is clearance. take measurements at from say 30
deg BTDC to 30 ATDC. in say 5 deg. incs first, maybe closer if it looks
like there is a minimum clearance between values. you will get a curve
that shows clearance and from that you can see where the min. is. at the
point that shows min., take closer measurements to be sure you got the
right amount.

it may be easier to use clay, huh?

note, hydraulic lifter preload must be set right, or solid lifter lash too,
before doing this. if the heads are old, valves may be receeded some also
changing the amount.

feeler gauges could be used instead of indicator, but not as quickly or
easily.

if degreeing in cam too, both can be done at same time

make sure you don't drop a valve inside.

don't think i forgot anything. i do think that you will find it easire to
pull heads to do it with clay. at the relatively small cam you have it
would tell you all you need to know.

sleddog

- ----------
From: KEVIN[SMTP:oldsmo swbell.net]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 1997 1:00 PM
To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Subject: thank but...

Ok,first I want to say thank to everyone who gave me advise handed down
from the ages and from screwing up!
Now I have another one for ya'll.Sleddog said somthing about being able
to check piston to valve clearence with a good dial indicator.I would
assume that you pop a sping loose and put the cylinder to top dead
center and see how far the valve drops before it hits the piston,with
the indicator set on the stem of the valve?
Can someone tell me if I'm wrong and tell me correct way to do it just
shy of pulling the heads.

Thanks mongo






+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
+-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:15:23 -0600
From: "Dave Resch"
Subject: Re: 351M Cam Timing

Not a "wiz", just a devotee.

Speculation:
I don't know too many details about this cam retarding thing. I've been
told by professional mechanics that it is true and I have also read about
it, so I believe it's true. What I don't know is how much and when. I
vaguely recall reading somewhere (years back) that cams were retarded about
2-4 degrees, but can't remember the source or specifics.

Facts:
What I do know about M-block cams is that beginning in 1977, Ford changed
the cam spec on the truck versions of these engines. Before '77 (and in
car engines through '79), the 351M used a lower lift cam than the 400. In
'77, both engines (used in trucks) were fitted w/ the same cam that gave
0.250 at the lifter (0.433 at the valve) on both intake and exhaust lobes.
This was more lift than the cam used in car 400s (0.247 intake, 0.250
exhaust).

I don't know if this cam change corresponds w/ any cam retarding or not.

My experience:
A couple of years ago (time before last when I replaced my water pump), I
pulled the front cover and looked at the timing chain/gears. They were
probably factory original w/ the plastic (nylon) gears on the cam. The
chain was pretty slack so I replaced the whole shebang w/ a Cloyes
double-roller set w/ steel gears. I lined everything up to be 0 degrees on
the cam, and when it was all back together and running, it had way better
low end power and torque.

I received two explanations from professional mechanic friends, both of
which may be at least partially correct. One guy told me that lining the
cam up to 0 degrees did away with the stock retarding done by the factory,
thus improving performance. Another guy (who has an '81 F250 400) told me
that just replacing a slack chain w/ a tight one will improve performance.
This guy swears that he replaces the timing chain on his 400 every couple
of years, for just this reason.

Unrelated PS: Just got my new clutch in and everything put back together
this weekend and WOW! It's great to drive a truck again after living w/ a
puny Escort for 8 weeks. Last couple of years before it failed, the clutch
got to be a real he-man device -- not for the faint of thigh or knee. Now
the truck's clutch pedal effort is less than the Escort's!

Dave R. (M-block devotee)
1980 F250 4x4 351M

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:51:14 -0500
From: "George Shepherd"
Subject: Re: Flathead Help

Dan,

Which manual did you check? I don't know of a 12v system that doesn't use
some type of voltage dropping system for the run time ignition system(prior
to computer ignitions that is). It may be a resistor or a resistance wire,
but its there.



- ----------
> From: Dan Wentz
> To: fordtrucks-digest ListService.net
> Subject: Re: Flathead Help
> Date: Sunday, September 21, 1997 11:03 PM
>
> >The following is bad advise! Even modern 12v systems use resistors or
> >resistor wire in the circuit. I agree with using a 12v coil, but don't
> >remove the resistor. Of course, it may be bypassed for starting using a
> >modern ignition wiring system.
>
> I just double checked the wiring diagram in my manual. These systems
> didn't use resistors. My coil actually says "do not use external
resistor"
> on it.
>
> I don't get the idea that the original poster was talking about a typical
> ignition resistor. It sounds like he's got a voltage reducer inline to
the
> coil--same as you'd use if you wanted to run other 6 volt devices on a 12
> volt system.
>
> ~Dan
>
> 1992 Ford Mustang LX
> 1950 Ford F1, 351C-2V
> Check out my F1 page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.GeoCities.com/MotorCity/3623
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
> | Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
> +-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:42:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: BigDogF250 aol.com
Subject: Re: Another Acronym

You guys forgot:
Big
Mechanical
Wreck

and:
Hauled
Over
Nearly
Dead
Ass-dragger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:07:55 -0400
From: Joe D
Subject: Re: Header help w/302

Thanks for the info.What type of exhaust systme did you use???Have one
made???Or put something together ti fit the mustang headers???Also
did you use the factory headers in 93 or aftermarkets???
Joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:46:55 -0700
From: "deconblu"
Subject: Re: Header help w/302

>Thanks for the info.What type of exhaust systme did you use???Have one
>made???Or put something together ti fit the mustang headers???Also
>did you use the factory headers in 93 or aftermarkets???
>Joe
....


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