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Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 03:57:13 -0600 (MDT)
From: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net (fordtrucks-digest)
To: fordtrucks-digest ListService.net
Subject: fordtrucks-digest V1 #198
Reply-To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Sender: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net


fordtrucks-digest Sunday, September 7 1997 Volume 01 : Number 198



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 And Older Trucks Digest
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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To unsubscribe, send email to:
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with the word "unsubscribe" in the body of the message. For help, send
email to the same address with the word "help" in the body of the
message.
=======================================================================
In this issue:

Re: F150 with 460 ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Timing, vacs and stuff ["Mark Mech" ]
Re: L&L ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Timing, vacs and stuff ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
timning, advance, etc. [Kevin Kemmerer ]
Re: L&L ["George Shepherd" ]
carburation problem [SARHOG aol.com]
RE: carburation problem [Tim Baker ]
Re: Electrolisis derusting process [Daver ]
76 F-150 with 460 [DWBaile aol.com]
Re: Timing Chain Questions [Daver ]
Re: Mail, mime? [Daver ]
Re: MIME and Stuff? [Daver ]
Re: Bleeding Brakes [Daver ]
Re: Attachments, my view.... [Daver ]
Re: Bleeding Brakes [Don Grossman ]
ADMIN: Voting form on-line [Ken Payne ]
Re: Electrolisis derusting process ["jstrigas"
Spray on Bedliners? Yes or No? ["Dale and Donna Carmine"
Re: 76 F-150 with 460 ["George Shepherd" ]
Re: Timing, vacs and stuff [danadeb pacbell.net]

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:13:54 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: F150 with 460

> From: reedg ns2.cetlink.net
> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:14:47 +0000
> Subject: Re: F150 with 460

> This conversion has definitely been a learning experience. Mostly
> learning how to cuss like a sailor. I am trying to put a 460 in a
> '78 F-150 4x4. It had a 351M in it. Simple? NOT!. Found out the hard
> way that the frame is different in trucks with a 351M. The trucks
> with the 460 has a welded in crossmember that the 351M trucks
> doesn't have. I guess it is time to break down and order a
> conversion kit. +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and

I've never looked at the F series 4x4's too closely but the bronco
has the cross member in front of the radiator with none under the
engine at all. The engine mount brackets are on the frame rails. Of
course this is for the 351M, 78 vintage.

Have you checked with L&L for conversion mounts? Just curious :-)


The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:33:04 -0700
From: "Mark Mech"
Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff

I'm only speaking from empirical knowledge of things that I have tried and
that worked on my particular engine. Now that I have a stock cam again, it
could all change.
I was thinking about setting up the timing as I described and then hooking
up the vacuum in addition.
However I was going to run the vac line through the cab with a bleeder
valve in line to control the advance while driving. I have an MSD and could
hook up the timing control to it, but I dont want to spend the $$ at this
point. It seems like a good way to experiment, but the bleeder will lean
the mix a bit.


Mark Mech
1913 E. El Parque
Tempe, Arizona 85282
aerofoam earthlink.net
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home.earthlink.net/~aerofoam/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:48:22 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: L&L

> From: reedg ns2.cetlink.net
> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:21:59 +0000
> Subject: L&L

> Is there a company called L&L that makes 460 conversion kits and
> what is the phone number and address? thanks. +-------------- Ford

I don't have the direct L&L but here's a distributor for them:

D & B sales
1-800-526-0064 or 517-625-3451

The guys say not to get the whole package, just the mounts and maybe
the headers if you need them since each mount company seems to be a
little different in their approach so not all headers work well with
all mounts. You'll need a van (or 4x4) oil pan with tube and
dipstick for side mount and 460 flex plate as the balance is
different from the 335 series and possibly a bigger radiator. Modine
makes the super cool 26 x 24 x 4, 4 tube which should work and can be
got for a good price from "Radiators Direct" on the web.

Give us a holler if you need any more info :-)

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:01:42 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff

> From: "Mark Mech"
> Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff
> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:33:04 -0700

> stock cam again, it could all change. I was thinking about setting
> up the timing as I described and then hooking up the vacuum in
> addition. However I was going to run the vac line through the cab

I played with the curve on my 460 with a distributor machine and
tried: all in early, spread out over larger band and more total
with the 21 degree rotor and nothing I tried worked as well as the
stock curve. I wound up going to a junk yard and getting an old
points distributor and converting it to dura spark without altering
the mechanical advance and it ran very well after that. I played
with the vac trying to get a flat spot out and achieved a small
measure of success but the carb and cold manifold was most of the
problem. I put the stock spread bore back on with the hot cross over
and it runs nice now.

The way I play with the vac is carry a 1/8" allen wrench with me in
the ash tray and just stop on the side of the road and give it a turn
and go on my way. I like to give it a turn and drive it for a day or
so to get a good feel for what it's doing. That's what I did all
week and now I think I have it where I want it but might still move
it some more just for kicks and to try to glean more understanding.

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:44:38 -0400
From: Kevin Kemmerer
Subject: timning, advance, etc.

i'll steer away from the theoretical for now, and just tell you about one
of my engines. i ran a '68 460 with stock manifolds, 11.5:1 compression,
stock heads, 600 holley, and a good street cam for 2 years. the timing was
a ford destr. with the vacuum unhooked and as far as i know stock
springs-weights. i ran any gas, with very few ping or detination problems.
i used high octane when i knew i'd be running it hard, but just general
driving 87 worked fine MOST OF THE TIME. total advance was between 33-38
degrees, i don't remember initial. gas mileage with a heavy foot, 33"
mudders, 3.50 gears, in a 77 f150 4x4, c-6 auto with a close to stock
converter (about 2000rpm flash) was around 10mpg. the mileage dropped to
5mpg when run harder, or during those snow storms with the hubs locked.

sometimes things just plain work right, even if they seem like they
shouldn't. sure, more mileage would be possible, but 10 ain't bad. i
could go 4 wheeling all day on a tank sometimes.

(my current motor has 9:1, and runs on 87 no matter what, but gets MUCH
LESS mileage, and uses a msd timing computer, no vacuum. but makes earth
spinning torque up to 5000 rpm. in fact it just took a couple of teeth of
the ring gear at the last truck pull. and people say the 9" is a strong
unit! mileage is slao worse with the 3000 stall converter, bigger carb,
etc.)

sleddog

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:01:20 -0500
From: "George Shepherd"
Subject: Re: L&L

L & L Products, 3210 Century Dr., Rowlett, TX 75088. 972-475-5202.

I bought their 460 kit and am happy with it. There are several options.
They will be glad to send you a catalog.

- ----------
> From: reedg ns2.cetlink.net
> To: fordtrucks ListService.net
> Subject: L&L
> Date: Saturday, September 06, 1997 8:21 AM
>
> Is there a company called L&L that makes 460 conversion kits and what
> is the phone number and address? thanks.
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
> | Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
> +-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:11:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: SARHOG aol.com
Subject: carburation problem

My engine is running very rich, especially at idle, and I can't seem to
solve it. I have a 460 with 429 non-CJ heads, offenhauser 4" single plane
intake, tube headers to a dual exhaust, topped off with a holley model 4780
800 cfm double pumper carb with mechanical secondaries. The carb was rebuilt
recently, a 6.5" power valve put in, and jetted down to #69 jets in front and
#82 jets in back. Vacuum at idle is about 14-15", and initial timing is 12
BTDC. Here's the where it gets confusing....the idle mixture screws on the
primary metering block are BOTTOMED, and it is still idling rich. Those
mixture screws should completely shut off the fuel flow at idle, right?? Any
idea where the fuel is coming from? Thanks for any insight.

John Z.
67 F-100 460/C-6

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:10:09 +0100
From: Tim Baker
Subject: RE: carburation problem

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCBAD6.F7E551E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

carb may be too big---check out Hot Rod Tips and Tricks prior =
issues----check library----show you how to drill and adjust ports to =
make carb. tuneable at idle..

- ----------
From: SARHOG aol.com
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 1997 10:11 PM
To: fordtrucks listservice.net
Subject: carburation problem

My engine is running very rich, especially at idle, and I can't =
seem to
solve it. I have a 460 with 429 non-CJ heads, offenhauser 4" single =
plane
intake, tube headers to a dual exhaust, topped off with a holley model =
4780
800 cfm double pumper carb with mechanical secondaries. The carb was =
rebuilt
recently, a 6.5" power valve put in, and jetted down to #69 jets in =
front and
#82 jets in back. Vacuum at idle is about 14-15", and initial timing is =
12
BTDC. Here's the where it gets confusing....the idle mixture screws on =
the
primary metering block are BOTTOMED, and it is still idling rich. Those
mixture screws should completely shut off the fuel flow at idle, right?? =
Any
idea where the fuel is coming from? Thanks for any insight.

John Z.
67 F-100 460/C-6




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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCBAD6.F7E551E0--

+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
+-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 05:28:48 -0500
From: Daver
Subject: Re: Electrolisis derusting process

Deacon Blue wrote:
>
> You don't need to ask! You can post any thing you want. If it's out of
> place we just flame you ;]
> Speaking of people that get flamed where's Daver?
>
> Deacon Blue

Present and accounted for. I've been a bit out of pocket.

Molater

Daver

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 18:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: DWBaile aol.com
Subject: 76 F-150 with 460

In a message dated 97-09-05 06:01:13 EDT, you write:


Does anyone have a '73 to 78 F150 that came with a 460 as original
equipment?
>>
I have a '76 with a 460 C-6 and 9" posi. It is a SuperCab and it is for
sale. It has A/C, PS, PB, cruise etc. It has good rebuildable mechanicals
and a good solid rust free cab, but I took the remainder of the body panels
off to put on my '78 CrewCab so it needs body parts. It is here in the yard,
all together and ready if anyone is interested.
Don

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 05:58:53 -0500
From: Daver
Subject: Re: Timing Chain Questions

Keith Srb wrote:
>
> 74 F250, I need to replace the timing chain and gears.
>
> 1. Does anyone make a gear drive set to replace the chain and gears?

I looked high and low for a gear drive for my 406. Milodonm is the only
company still making a gear drive for FE's and it requires special
machining on the block, it is a single idler design and can and will
come apart. Speaking of Murphy, I went as far as to call Pete Jackson
and ask if they had a gear drive, "yes" they replied "in our museum and
it is not for sale". Pete Jackson has not produced that drive in 20
years.

>
> 2. Are there any "little problems" I need to watch out for?
>
> 3. Timing Chain slipped a tooth or two, so what do I have to move so the marks
> up on the crank shaft gear and the cam shaft gear will line up?
> 1974 Ford F250 Ranger XLT, 390ci 4bbl, Automatic, Long Box, Style Side.

Use a good quality roller chain with steel sprokits.

Molater

Daver

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 06:14:00 -0500
From: Daver
Subject: Re: Mail, mime?

HMMMMMMMMMM. Mail Mime? Hey Jim is this not refering to a quiet guy
standing on a street corner feeling up an invisable piece of glass. I
guess as opposed to a Femail Mime A?

Molater

Daver

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 06:20:20 -0500
From: Daver
Subject: Re: MIME and Stuff?

Randy Collins wrote:
> I guess folks deal with situations differently.
>
> Randy Collins
> Boise, Idaho
> rcollins micron.net

Yeh this list is a great place but you have to remember it boasts a
large membership, everything from really good people to absolute S #t
heads and I believe you have heard from a complete cross section of that
membership.

Remember your in trouble only when Mom (aka Ken) says something.

Molater

Daver

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 06:30:00 -0500
From: Daver
Subject: Re: Bleeding Brakes

Don Grossman wrote:
>
> Where can the check ball bleaders be found for sale?
>
> --
> Don Grossman
> duckdon pacific.net

CarQuest carries them about 5 or 6 bucks (thats dollars not mail deer
which BTW have been witnessed shooting up post offices with fully
automatic weapons). Sorry could not help it Ken.

Molater

Daver

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 06:39:29 -0500
From: Daver
Subject: Re: Attachments, my view....

Ken Payne wrote:

> It actually makes more sense, but the term "List Mom" has long
> been used with mailing lists. It refers to "Den Mothers" of
> Cub Scout troops who have to manage 500 screaming kids at once
> without losing their cool.
>
> Ken, List Mo... err Dad

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Yehhhh it does fit.

Molater

Daver

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 17:50:16 -0800
From: Don Grossman
Subject: Re: Bleeding Brakes

Daver wrote:
>
> Don Grossman wrote:
> >
> > Where can the check ball bleaders be found for sale?
> >
> > --
> > Don Grossman
> > duckdon pacific.net
>
> CarQuest carries them about 5 or 6 bucks (thats dollars not mail deer
> which BTW have been witnessed shooting up post offices with fully
> automatic weapons). Sorry could not help it Ken.
>
> Molater
>
> Daver

I just saw an article on the check ball bleeders. They look just like a
regular Bleeder screw with a little spring and a ball in them and they
want 5 or 6 dollars for them. That must be for a pack of 4 or
something.

Daver, I am looking for one of those 100 round drum magazines for my
SKS, ya got one laying arround. I got a deer problem ;-)
- --
Don Grossman
duckdon pacific.net


63 Ford F-250 4x4 67' 390, t-98, Spicer 24, Dana 60, Dana 44

Phase 172: rebuild front suspension

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 21:50:34 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: ADMIN: Voting form on-line

First, wanted to comment about something...
Concerning MIME, don't worry, it takes a lot to piss me
off, this issue certainly isn't worth getting upset about.
ost offenders weren't even aware it was happening....

Now the announcment....

After wrestling with a hard to configure CGI voting script
with no luck, I've decided to just use an email based voting
form. This is real similiar to the way we had the last vote.
Unfortunately, it means we can't can a running on-line tally.
I'll have to count the votes. Vote results with comments
will get published, no name or email addresses will appear.

What are we voting on?
The issue is whether we should form a third list. This would
mean splitting the current 1979 and older list into two lists.
This would not affect the 1980 and newer list. If the "yeas"
win, then we would have the following 3 lists:
1. 1960 and older trucks
2. 1961-1979 trucks
3. 1980 and newer trucks

Voting will end next weekend. To vote, use the on-line form
at http://www.ford-trucks.com/vote.html
If you do not have forms compatible browser, send me email
(kpayne mindspring.com) with your vote.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 18:50:21 -0700
From: "jstrigas"
Subject: Re: Electrolisis derusting process

Daver! Your back,,, HEY, That's my kilt! No wonder you never came back!
You've been with her, haven't you? That's utter nonsense!



Deacon Blue
jstrigas worldnet.att.net

'73 F100
'83 XJ900RK
'86 GL1200 Custom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 21:22:06 -0500
From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
Subject: Spray on Bedliners? Yes or No?

I had to put a different box on my '79 F-150 last year after being rear
ended. I will eventually get around to painting it to match the rest of
the truck, (yes, I know it's ugly). I've been thinking about whether to
paint the inside of the box with a stock paint finish or use a spray-on
bedliner. I'm interested in hearing what you favor and why. I would be
interested in either commercially applied or DIY finishes and the costs
involved, results, what works, what doesn't , etc.
I don't care much for plastic bedliners, just my preference.

later,
dale c.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:13:33 -0500
From: "George Shepherd"
Subject: Re: 76 F-150 with 460

Don,

Where is here in the yard?


- ----------
> From: DWBaile aol.com
> To: fordtrucks ListService.net
> Subject: 76 F-150 with 460
> Date: Saturday, September 06, 1997 5:50 PM
>
> In a message dated 97-09-05 06:01:13 EDT, you write:
>
>
> Does anyone have a '73 to 78 F150 that came with a 460 as original
> equipment?
> >>
> I have a '76 with a 460 C-6 and 9" posi. It is a SuperCab and it is for
> sale. It has A/C, PS, PB, cruise etc. It has good rebuildable
mechanicals
> and a good solid rust free cab, but I took the remainder of the body
panels
> off to put on my '78 CrewCab so it needs body parts. It is here in the
yard,
> all together and ready if anyone is interested.
> Don
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
> | Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
> +-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 02:57:05 -0700
From: danadeb pacbell.net
Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff

THIS IS NOT A FLAME!
It is just my two cents worth.

The mechanical advance responds to engine SPEED only.

Vacuum advance responds to engine LOAD only.


Vacuum advance was an attempt to gain fuel mileage and reduce emissions,
it is a MECHANICAL computer trying to control the engine at various
loads and speeds. Way back when, there was no such thing as vacuum
advance, all dist. used only mechanical. Most high performance engines
still use mechanical only.


I have always seen ( stock from Ford and all other car makers ) the
vacuum canister connected to the carb port which gives a reverse vacuum
signal as compared to the manifold vac. Under hard acceleration, if you
hook the dist vacuum advance up to manifold vacuum you will loose vacuum
signal because manifold vacuum goes down under WOT thus causing the
dist. to reduce the amount of advance when you need it the most. ( you
need more advance, to a limit, to allow the engine to speed up. advance
your timing at idle and the engine RPM increases ) Now heavy load at low
engine speeds presents a different situation, too much advance then,
will result in ping. At low RPM ( under 2000 or so ) the mechanical
advance is less then its maximum. With the throttle open allot, like
when climbing a hill but going rather slow (30 MPH in high gear) you
would be lucky to see 2000 RPM but your vacuum advance is seeing high
vacuum because you have your throttle plates open quite wide ( (high
vacuum = more or max. vacuum advance) + (low RPM = less than max.
mechanical advance) = less then max. advance = no ping!) Effectively
this is sort of a retard of the total advance. "T" in a vacuum gauge on
the carb port and see what it does under various RPM and load
conditions. Put the gauge on the manifold and do the test again. Compare
the two.


What I have found with my own testing, reading books and gaining info
from you folks on line, is that for most driving needs, 8-10 deg's
initial, 10-15 deg's mechanical ( all in by 2000 RPM) and 15-20 deg's
vacuum ( taken from the carb port ) results in a well mannered, tire
burning, load hauling, good enough gas mileage ( we are talking V8's in
non aerodynamic trucks here, if you can't afford gas at 8-15 miles to
the gallon go get a Ford Escort ) truck. Some of the newer vacuum
advance cans allow too much advance, 30 deg's or so, added to initial
and mechanical and you get 50 deg's or more ( major ping, stumble,
backfire etc. ) I know, I was there just a few weeks ago! Right now I
am at 8 deg's initial, 10 deg's mechanical, and 20 deg's vacuum. Put the
peddle to the floor and you GO! Clime a steep hill at slow speeds on a
very hot day ( 95 deg's ) and then give it more gas without downshifting
and you GO! ( slight Ping! on 87 octane, NO ping on 89 octane )

Here is an example out of my Ford Shop Manual:....


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