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Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:55:15 -0600 (MDT)
From: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net (fordtrucks-digest)
To: fordtrucks-digest ListService.net
Subject: fordtrucks-digest V1 #197
Reply-To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Sender: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net


fordtrucks-digest Saturday, September 6 1997 Volume 01 : Number 197



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 And Older Trucks Digest
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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email to the same address with the word "help" in the body of the
message.
=======================================================================
In this issue:

FMX Transmission ["Bear" ]
RE: FMX Transmission [DC Beatty ]
Timing, vacs and stuff ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: F-350 Weak Brakes Update ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Split ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Split ["George Shepherd" ]
Re: Attachments, my view.... [Ken Payne ]
Re: Attachments, my view.... ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
1937-48 Ford V-8 Engines ["Gene E. Bray" ]
Re: Timing, vacs and stuff ["Mark Mech" ]
Re: Timing, vacs and stuff ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Timing, vacs and stuff ["Mark Mech" ]
Re: F150 with 460 [reedg ns2.cetlink.net]
L&L [reedg ns2.cetlink.net]
Re: Timing, vacs and stuff ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 05:41:17 -0500
From: "Bear"
Subject: FMX Transmission

Where do you plug in reverse lights on a FMX transmission. The tranny is
from a 76 Torino and it is in a 78 F-150 Ranger.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 07:31:23 -0400
From: DC Beatty
Subject: RE: FMX Transmission

My FMX is in a '67 and it has no wires to it whatsoever. The backup light=

switch for mine is integral with the neutral safety switch near the base =
of
the steering column, on the inside of the truck, down by the firewall.

Hope this helps,

DC Beatty
1967 F100 352
1974 Maverick 302


You wrote:


is
from a 76 Torino and it is in a 78 F-150 Ranger.>>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:15:41 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Timing, vacs and stuff

Tom and other friends, I believe I'm finally on to something with
this timing thing and I'm really excited! :-) We've been discussing
this for some time and it occured to me that there are several things
that didn't get completely worked out but which I think I understand
now:

The 10 - 12 initial and 34 - 38 total with no vac it strictly a
performance street or racing thing and requires a non stock
distributor since stock distributors don't have enough range to get
it done without modifications. Ford Dura Sparks have anywhere from
13 to 21 degrees in the mechanical advance and with even 12 degrees
initial it still only gives you 33 degrees total and most of you do
not have the 21 degree version. The rotor has two settings built
into it and by rotating it on the stop 180 you can get the other
setting. This requires removal of the pickup plate, felt pad, snap
ring and springs (carefully). The range is stamped into the arm on
the rotor near the slot the stop runs in. We build them here and
I've looked for the highest range and found 21 to he the highest
AFAIK.

Idle only needs to keep the engine running so timing isn't critical
here and is not part of the equation so initial can be what ever you
need to make the rest of the range work. Obviously, moving the
initial without changing the mechanical curve will also move the
advance at any given rpm by the same amount which must be taken into
account.

The vac will probably fully retard no matter where the spring is
adjusted at WOT so the initial timing is what causes spark knock, not
the vac.

The additional, seemingly excessive advance offered by the vac is
only partially used except at idle and decelleration so the spring
pressure determines the advance you will have at any given rpm and
vacuum value (throttle position) so an adjustable stop is not
necessary.

To obtain best economy and still have full performance a vac is
necessary since at cruise and part throttle the volumetric efficiency
is lower and mixture is leaner so more advance is required, lots
more.

Here's what I've done so far if anyone cares:

Initially I set the timing at 10 degrees but then discovered the vac
wasn't working so I oiled it and freed it up and replaced the hoses.
It was hooked to manifold, I don't think I have ported on this carb
so I haven't tried it yet. After fixing all this and resetting to 10
degrees the spark knock was gone under normal operating conditions
and it ran pretty well.

Moved initial to 12 since every one said that's the thing to do to
get more power and..............

Spark knock came back, found pickup plate bearings hanging again and
re-oiled, checked mechanical and all was well but now it's knocking
at low speeds and moderate throttle as well as at WOT.

Reduced initial to 10 degrees and knock is better but still at low
speeds and WOT it's bad.

Crank in the vac three turns, still at 10 degrees and "seems" better
but still there at WOT but now I have sluggish response at cruise and
seems to need more pedal to hold 60.

Back it out 4 turns (1 turn out from original setting) and knock
doesn't seem to change much but now my response is back to normal at
cruise and maybe just a tad better but have surge at 35 mph in high
or near idle in third which I never noticed before.

This morning I got up early so I could fool with it a bit and reset
the initial to about 8 (didn't have time to mark the damper) and
backed the vac out one more turn. Low speed surge seems to be gone,
can't detect any serious spark knock under any conditions, vacuum is
essetially the same (15") on level roads at cruise (60) and throttle
response in cruise range is very good and requires very little pedal
to maintain 60 so I expect economy to improve if only marginally.

What I get from all of this is:

1..Initial timing is the spark knock culprit in most cases

2..factory curve is adequate for most applications except HIGH
performance and racing when initial is properly set.

3..Vac is necessary for best street performance and economy and can
be used to shift the cruise advance up or down with spring pressure.

4..Cruise and part throttle (light throttle) requires MUCH more
advance than most of us would suspect for proper operation due to
poor volumetric efficeincy and lean mixture, as high as 45 or 50
degrees possibly which is the job of the vac.

I'm wearing my flame retardant suit today so flame away :-)

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:44:12 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: F-350 Weak Brakes Update

> From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
> Subject: F-350 Weak Brakes Update
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:38:35 -0500

> I did find that the left rear drum was full of grease and the
> self-adjuster isn't working. Also found that the star wheel on the

Axle grease? From the rear end? Better check the axle seals. This
is a full floating axle so I don't know if the diff lube can get in
the brakes or not but better check it out :-)

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:25:14 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: Split

> From: "jstrigas"
> Subject: Split
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:55:42 -0700

> split that said it would be better for us because. If a split is
> best for a group then I can go with it. At 42 I'm not a kid and a
> '73 isn't new. I'm not thinking of myself, reading about a '40s Ford
> truck does me no good for my truck. They interest me because I'm a
> Ford Truck Enthusiasts not a My Ford Truck Enthusiasts!
> Split the list cost everyone resources! It's just my .02 so it's

I'm subscribed to two list because they both have info I can use and
I can share my experiences with an enthusiastic audience as well. If
the old truck list is split into old and older lists I can still
subscribe to both if I want and each reply will only go to the one it
came from so I can still have all the info if I want but the guy who
has limited time to browse the mail will appreciate a smaller, more
pertainent list so we both win. I don't see what all the fuss is
about, just pick a good spot and cut it, the rest of us will
resubscribe to the older list or visa vera if we want, right???

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:27:14 -0500
From: "George Shepherd"
Subject: Re: Split

I agree. I don't have an early truck now, but when my dad had trucks in the
late 40s and 50s, I worked on them. I still have service manuals (no they
are not for sale) from them and I have posted replys to questions asked
about early trucks. I like them, but I won't really have a reason to read a
split list. maybe my .02 worth of advice aint worth much, but it will be
lost to those not on "my" list.

- ----------
> From: jstrigas
> To: fordtrucks ListService.net
> Subject: Split
> Date: Friday, September 05, 1997 11:55 PM
>
> If the list is split and someone needs help and no one seems to know
the
> answer on the list that the person is subscribed to, can they post to
> another within the Ford Truck Enthusiasts list? If people want a split
> that's up to a vote. After all I'm no Yankee! But consideration to the
> people on the list will need to be looked at closely! I have been told
that
> people can join both list if thats what they want, so there would be no
> problem, but it is because they can't post to a list that doesn't include
> their truck. If they can post to another list then what's the reason for
a
> split?
> I know people don't intend to sound rude and I do take it personaly,
> shouldn't but I do. If people are in favor of a split that's fine the
> problem I have is an opinion that effects the whole list and is me
oriented.
> So far I haven't seen one post that was in favor of a split that said it
> would be better for us because. If a split is best for a group then I can
go
> with it. At 42 I'm not a kid and a '73 isn't new. I'm not thinking of
> myself, reading about a '40s Ford truck does me no good for my truck.
They
> interest me because I'm a Ford Truck Enthusiasts not a My Ford Truck
> Enthusiasts!
> Split the list cost everyone resources! It's just my .02 so it's no
big
> deal. Does anyone else feel the same way I do? If it's only me then I'm
> sorry, I would be out of line and I will stop! You have my word!
>
>
>
>
> Deacon Blue
> AKA Jim Strigas
> jstrigas worldnet.att.net
>
> '73 F100
> '83 XJ900RK
> '86 GL1200 Custom
>
>
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
> | Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
> +-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 09:48:20 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: Re: Attachments, my view....

At 05:01 PM 9/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Payne, Kenneth wrote:
>
>> Ken
>> -Admin, aka "List Mom"
>
>How about "List Dad"?
>

It actually makes more sense, but the term "List Mom" has long
been used with mailing lists. It refers to "Den Mothers" of
Cub Scout troops who have to manage 500 screaming kids at once
without losing their cool.

Ken, List Mo... err Dad

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:54:55 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: Attachments, my view....

> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 09:48:20 -0400
> From: Ken Payne
> Subject: Re: Attachments, my view....

> It actually makes more sense, but the term "List Mom" has long been
> used with mailing lists. It refers to "Den Mothers" of Cub Scout
> troops who have to manage 500 screaming kids at once without losing
> their cool.

Yeah, most of us teach our kids to be nice, patient, considerate,
understanding, tolerant, concientious, hard workers etc. but somehow
many 40 - 50 and older people still haven't learned how to do it
themselves? I see that every day in the shop and even occasionally
catch myself falling short in one or more of these regards. Seems
like my retarded Aunt was smarter than anyone knew when she told me
as a youngster that adults were just bigger, older kids :-)

Ever been to a club meeting, motorcycle, 4 wheeler etc.? I rest my
case :-)

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 09:40:43 -0600
From: "Gene E. Bray"
Subject: 1937-48 Ford V-8 Engines

Second Posting: "Just acquired an original Ford Motor Company 64 page
repair manual (3666-48D 25 cents) for passenger car and truck V-8's in
the 78, 81A, and 59A series dated June 18 1948. I intend to drop off the
"1979 and earlier ford truck" list distribution but would answer direct
inquiries to my e-mail address as time permits. Cost to reproduce $1.60
each and mailing at 5 oz $1.28 or $3.00 per for anyone interested.
Obviously, this is not a money making proposition for me but I'll do it for
the brotherhood." BTW, only two people want this information so far. The
interest in really old Ford trucks seems to be pretty shallow. Ta Ta
Gene E. Bray (208)888-3293
gebray primenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:29:32 -0700
From: "Mark Mech"
Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff

I recently met a long time hot rodder that had owned and restored over 350
collectable cars. Many of them were fairly exotic. I was telling him about
the poor mileage I was getting in my truck after putting in an RV cam and
he told me that his GMC 3/4 ton dually pickup with a 454 was getting 18 mpg
in town!
I asked him how and he explained that in 1972 fed. regs. caused auto mfgrs.
to limit the advance and change the curve for emmissions reasons.
He told me thet main thing he did for mileage and power was to:
Put in lighter weights and springs in the dist. to achieve full advance
immedietly. Then he said to mark your balancer with timing marks out to
37deg. and to time buy reving the throttle hard and making sure that the
max advance achieves 37 as fast as possible without vacuum. He doesnt use
the vacuum at all. The only other factor is bad gas and pinging.
If you have pinging at this setting you need to back off until it stops. I
tried his method, but without the dist. mods. and it ran better than it had
for years. It also increased my mileage to around 14mpg. Now that I've got
a new stock engine in without that awful cam, I am looking forward to
tweaking some more. I think I'll go get that dist. kit too. He said it's
made by Mr. clutch and comes with a bunch of springs and weights for around
$10.00

Mark Mech
1913 E. El Parque
Tempe, Arizona 85282
aerofoam earthlink.net
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home.earthlink.net/~aerofoam/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:53:00 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff

> From: "Mark Mech"
> Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff
> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:29:32 -0700

> until it stops. I tried his method, but without the dist. mods. and
> it ran better than it had for years. It also increased my mileage to
> around 14mpg. Now that I've got a new stock engine in without that
> awful cam, I am looking forward to tweaking some more. I think I'll

What engine do you have? What he's done in my estimation is
pre-advance the timing to the value the rest of us would get with the
vac for light throttle applications and is probably running the best
premium he can get to avoid pinging. The problem with that much
mechanical advance, that low in the rpm range is that there is no way
to retard it for hard accelleration. I also suspect he's using a
higher stall converter than stock to allow easier revs. Again, if
you use aircraft fuel or 104 octane stuff it doesn't matter since it
can't ping anyway but for the average street guy IMHO the vac is a
better choice. I run the cheapest low grade unleaded in mine right
now for testing purposes and am able to eliminate the ping and still
get pretty fair power for a 351M dog and last time I checked near 14
mpg. My 460 has never given me any pinging but has stock low
compression pistons and RV cam along with 2.75 gears and runs on
almost anything that will burn at 12 mpg (which I plan to improve on
with my next buildup) :-)

I know it's possible to get 18 mpg from the big blocks. The 460 in
the T-bird and lincolins used to get near that quite often from what
I've heard with stock configurations and 3.25 gearing and that's
with near 5k# of iron. I guess it's about what a person wants out of
his vehicle and what he's willing to compromise to get it :-)

BTW, I wonder what gearing he's using? And what tranny? And what
size tires?

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:39:19 -0700
From: "Mark Mech"
Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff

He said the principle behind this method was to get the engine to max
advance as fast as possible and sustain it. This optimizes the performance
for in town driving,but probably isnt exactly dialed in for highway use. He
was running stock equipment. He said he eliminated the vacuum because of
the way it effects the curve. I did it in a race balanced 302 with an RV
cam and edelbrock performer manifold and carb.
I have just installed a factory rebuilt longblock. It is stock except for
the edelbrock performer carb, manifold and MSD ignition. I will be
tinkering with it and will post the results. I run 87 oct. krap from Arco
with mtbe added(yuk) and I dont get any pinging at these settings.

Mark Mech
1913 E. El Parque
Tempe, Arizona 85282
aerofoam earthlink.net
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home.earthlink.net/~aerofoam/

- ----------
> From: Gary, 78 BBB
> To: fordtrucks ListService.net
> Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff
> Date: Saturday, September 06, 1997 4:53 AM
>
> > From: "Mark Mech"
> > Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff
> > Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:29:32 -0700
>
> > until it stops. I tried his method, but without the dist. mods. and
> > it ran better than it had for years. It also increased my mileage to
> > around 14mpg. Now that I've got a new stock engine in without that
> > awful cam, I am looking forward to tweaking some more. I think I'll
>
> What engine do you have? What he's done in my estimation is
> pre-advance the timing to the value the rest of us would get with the
> vac for light throttle applications and is probably running the best
> premium he can get to avoid pinging. The problem with that much
> mechanical advance, that low in the rpm range is that there is no way
> to retard it for hard accelleration. I also suspect he's using a
> higher stall converter than stock to allow easier revs. Again, if
> you use aircraft fuel or 104 octane stuff it doesn't matter since it
> can't ping anyway but for the average street guy IMHO the vac is a
> better choice. I run the cheapest low grade unleaded in mine right
> now for testing purposes and am able to eliminate the ping and still
> get pretty fair power for a 351M dog and last time I checked near 14
> mpg. My 460 has never given me any pinging but has stock low
> compression pistons and RV cam along with 2.75 gears and runs on
> almost anything that will burn at 12 mpg (which I plan to improve on
> with my next buildup) :-)
>
> I know it's possible to get 18 mpg from the big blocks. The 460 in
> the T-bird and lincolins used to get near that quite often from what
> I've heard with stock configurations and 3.25 gearing and that's
> with near 5k# of iron. I guess it's about what a person wants out of
> his vehicle and what he's willing to compromise to get it :-)
>
> BTW, I wonder what gearing he's using? And what tranny? And what
> size tires?
>
> The swift of foot and slow of wit
> have more off road experiences
>
> -- Gary --
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
> | Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
> +-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:14:47 +0000
From: reedg ns2.cetlink.net
Subject: Re: F150 with 460

> From: FORDTRKNUT aol.com

> They did come with 460's...they even came in F-100's!!!! I have seen 2 in
> local junk yards (both in New Jersey). Do you need any parts to do a
> conversion?? I can (if you want) find out if it is still there and find out
> how much. I do have to know what you need (if you need anything to do a
> conversion). Hope to hear from you!!! Wayne Grabley


This conversion has definitely been a learning experience. Mostly
learning how to cuss like a sailor. I am trying to put a 460 in a '78
F-150 4x4. It had a 351M in it. Simple? NOT!. Found out the hard way
that the frame is different in trucks with a 351M. The trucks with
the 460 has a welded in crossmember that the 351M trucks doesn't
have. I guess it is time to break down and order a conversion kit.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:21:59 +0000
From: reedg ns2.cetlink.net
Subject: L&L

Is there a company called L&L that makes 460 conversion kits and what
is the phone number and address? thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:54:59 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff

> From: "Mark Mech"
> Subject: Re: Timing, vacs and stuff
> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:39:19 -0700

> He said the principle behind this method was to get the engine to
> max advance as fast as possible and sustain it. This optimizes the
> performance for in town driving,but probably isnt exactly dialed in
> for highway use. He was running stock equipment. He said he
> eliminated the vacuum because of the way it effects the curve. I did

The disclaimer you stated concerning highway driving leads me back to
the original point about the vac. It makes up for all the variables
if it's set up right which straight mechanical advance can't do. New
vehicles get better economy because this is controlled by computers
based on tables developed through imperical testing on dynos. Of
course we don't have those facilities but with a better understanding
of what the engine needs under each set of conditions we can then
adjust to meet those needs between the initial, mechanical and vac.
There are several dyed in the wool mechanical guys on the bronco list
too and they claim to get the performance and economy they want but I
suspect they are short changing themselves on economy.

I've studied the ins and outs of engine mechanics, dynamics, flow
etc. non-professionally for my own enjoyment and have come to the
conclusions I mentioned in my first post concerning timing
requirements based on the fact that mixture and cylinder pressure
(controlled in large part by the cam) are the main factors which
affect timing along with rpm (due to burn time available).

If I remember the principles it goes like this: as throttle
opens manifold pressure goes up improving cylinder filling so we get
better volumetric efficiency, carrying that thought all the way out,
best volumetric effiiciency happens at WOT at any speed up to the
torque peak. We also have richest mixture at WOT (at least at lower
rpms) so as rpm goes up the amount of time for the fuel to burn goes
down so must be started sooner (more advance) but max volumetric
efficiency means fuel burns faster due to higher cylinder pressure
and mixture is richer so we need less advance, a paradox which
causes the advace curve to move more slowly than rpm might suggest!

Now the cam is what actually determines where the torque peak will
happen (among other related things) and as rpms climb it gets closer
to it's designed peak improving volumetric efficiency even more but
at some point max volumetric effiiciency starts falling off due to
cam specs and air flow as we pass the torque peak and timing needs to
continue to advance (it seems to me) but it doesn't ?

This is where I get a bit confused. I understand the need to....

---

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