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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:12:03 -0600 (MDT)
From: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net (fordtrucks-digest)
To: fordtrucks-digest ListService.net
Subject: fordtrucks-digest V1 #172
Reply-To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Sender: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net


fordtrucks-digest Wednesday, August 27 1997 Volume 01 : Number 172



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 And Older Trucks Digest
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message.
=======================================================================
In this issue:

351C Horsepower Question [Dan Wentz ]
Bought the 68 f100 [Joe DeLaurentis ]
Exhaust/Rims????For 68 [Joe DeLaurentis ]
Re: Wander and xfer cases ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Installing Solid Axle ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: 351C Horsepower Question [John MacNamara ]
Books Available [Joe DeLaurentis ]
RE: 351C Horsepower Question [Kevin Kemmerer ]
RE: Wander and xfer cases [Kevin Kemmerer ]
RE: Wander and xfer cases ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
re: Exhaust/Rims????For 68 ["Payne, Kenneth"
Re: Wander and xfer cases [marko helix.net (marko maryniak)]
Brakes, update ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Wander and xfer cases ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: 351C Horsepower Question [SARHOG aol.com]
Question - Overdrive transmission options [SuperMagot aol.com]
Interior 51 [billjhs ]
302 specs ["Mark Mech" ]

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:10:04 -0700
From: Dan Wentz
Subject: 351C Horsepower Question

I was just looking through an old Chilton's manual when I noticed something
odd. In 1971 the 351C 2V was rated at 240 HP, which is about what I'd
expect. But then in 1972 (the year I have) HP was only 164!!! Did they
add a bunch of emissions stuff in 72 to rob over 70 horses? Or did they
start measuring HP some other way? I mean, 76 horses is a lot--where did
it go?

~Dan

1992 Ford Mustang LX
1950 Ford F1, 351C-2V
Check out my F1 page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.GeoCities.com/MotorCity/3623
+---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:22:05 -0400
From: Joe DeLaurentis
Subject: Bought the 68 f100

Well folks,
with all my questions about the 68, I finally went out and bought it..
So i am the owner of a 68 F-100..I think this truck is tighter then
my 83 Bronco!
Joe
+---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:24:07 -0400
From: Joe DeLaurentis
Subject: Exhaust/Rims????For 68

ANybody know of a bolt on dual exhaust for the 68 f100 with a 302??I
saw ones in jc whitney anybody use them????Also what size tire
can I fit on a stock 68??Will a 32" tire fit?????????What are you
guys with the 68-72's using for aftermarket rims???
joe
+---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:45:27 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: Wander and xfer cases

> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:05:07 -0700
> From: terry samek

> Hi,
> I have recently aquired a 1977 f150, full time four wheel drive,
> with a 460.It's in pretty good shape and I plan to restore it.It
> tends to wander and I'm wondering if there are any standard problems
> with the steering on these trucks.Also the full time four wheel
> drive is a system I know nothing about.The transfer case has high,
> low and neutral positions but also lock positions for high and low
> ranges.Any info would be appreciated.

Sounds like an NP203. Is the case cast iron? There are part time
kits for those but it you want part time with the 460 I suggest
replacing it with an NP 205 which is gear drive and considered by the
experts to be the strongest light truck case ever built. You can get
heavy duty input and output shafts for it to make it even stronger.

Wander is usually due to tight king pins or ball joints which won't
allow the weight of the vehicle to force the steering linkage back to
center easily. Minor bumps tend to move the linkage and the
stiffness due to old grease or wear etc. tends to keep it where it
moves so constant corrections have to be made. Looseness in the
linkage, steering box or steering column u-joints can cause some as
well but usually if the alignment is good looseness isn't as likely
as tightness due to the above unless of course it's so loose that the
alignment won't stay consistant.

- -- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..
+---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:09:21 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: Installing Solid Axle

> From: "Kevin"
> Subject: Re: Installing Solid Axle
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:05:37 -0000

> Don't take this wrong, but, WHY? Everyone esle is going to better
> suspension and you are going back in time.

They don't make them like they used to :-) IFS is only better in the
eyes of him who has invested in it. I deliberately chose the 78/79
as my goal to avoid it like the plague, but I like simplicity.

If I had more time and money I would have Dana 60's at both ends, not
cuz they're the strongest, even though the dana's 35 splines make
it a little stronger than the ford 9", but because they have full
floating axles which are inherently stronger and won't curb you if
one breaks and there is a fair range of after market gears and parts
for them. The ford 9" solid cast housing is much stronger than any
dana ever thought of being but its non floating axle makes it less
desirable for off roading.

If I had the money I'd have ford 9" converted to full floating
spindles and disk brakes at both ends but thats for dreams, movies
and cartoons, I'll never do it.

- -- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..
+---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:14:02 -0700
From: John MacNamara
Subject: Re: 351C Horsepower Question

Dan Wentz wrote:
>
> I was just looking through an old Chilton's manual when I noticed something
> odd. In 1971 the 351C 2V was rated at 240 HP, which is about what I'd
> expect. But then in 1972 (the year I have) HP was only 164!!! Did they
> add a bunch of emissions stuff in 72 to rob over 70 horses? Or did they
> start measuring HP some other way? I mean, 76 horses is a lot--where did
> it go?
>
> ~Dan
>
> 1992 Ford Mustang LX
> 1950 Ford F1, 351C-2V
> Check out my F1 page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.GeoCities.com/MotorCity/3623
> +---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
> | Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
> +-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+
Dan: Around about that time, the factories started giving horsepower
ratings at the rear wheel instead of the flywheel and that accounts for
the drop (along with compression).

Thanks

John MacNamara

78 F250 4X4 Supercab
67 GT500
66 427 Corvette
+---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:28:35 -0400
From: Joe DeLaurentis
Subject: Books Available

goto
www.classicpickups.com
They have 6 books on the F-series..Including the F-series Red book for
$8.75...Just some info
Joe
+---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:28:39 -0400
From: Kevin Kemmerer
Subject: RE: 351C Horsepower Question

in 71 they may have quoted gross HP, and in 72, net - including all
accessories and losses. during the musclecar days the advertised HP was
very embelished and in some cases (like the dodge hemi) the companies would
rate the HP at the torque peek, when in fact it made more HP higher
RPM's. 72 was the year many emissions where added, yes. and compression
usually dropped and cams got smaller and carbs got rejetted etc.
the first thing to do is find out if the engine itself changed, or if only
the advertised HP changed.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Dan Wentz[SMTP:dwentz earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 6:10 AM
To: fordtrucks-digest ListService.net
Subject: 351C Horsepower Question

I was just looking through an old Chilton's manual when I noticed something
odd. In 1971 the 351C 2V was rated at 240 HP, which is about what I'd
expect. But then in 1972 (the year I have) HP was only 164!!! Did they
add a bunch of emissions stuff in 72 to rob over 70 horses? Or did they
start measuring HP some other way? I mean, 76 horses is a lot--where did
it go?

~Dan

1992 Ford Mustang LX
1950 Ford F1, 351C-2V
Check out my F1 page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.GeoCities.com/MotorCity/3623
+---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
+-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:36:19 -0400
From: Kevin Kemmerer
Subject: RE: Wander and xfer cases

in my 77 f150, i found two things that helped create a bump steer problem.
one, is the high lift. i don't know if yours is lifted, but if it is ,
the bar that goes from the axle to the housing, to locate the axle
sideways, is at a steep angle. this causes bump steer big time.
especially if it is softly sprung and shocked. a set of rancho 9000
shocks on front reduced much of my problem. this doesn't cause wander
though.

another problem i have noticed with ALL the front axle housings i have put
in my truck, is that the pivot point where that bar connects to the axle is
loose. the hole in the axle allows the bolt to "float", creeated very
loose steering. i have bushed them, but drilling out the hole for an
aluminum-bronze bushing is not easy. if it is loose here, you will see it
move when someone turns the wheel right-left.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Gary, 78 BBB[SMTP:gpeters3 ford.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 3:45 AM
To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Subject: Re: Wander and xfer cases

> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:05:07 -0700
> From: terry samek

> Hi,
> I have recently aquired a 1977 f150, full time four wheel drive,
> with a 460.It's in pretty good shape and I plan to restore it.It
> tends to wander and I'm wondering if there are any standard problems
> with the steering on these trucks.Also the full time four wheel
> drive is a system I know nothing about.The transfer case has high,
> low and neutral positions but also lock positions for high and low
> ranges.Any info would be appreciated.

Sounds like an NP203. Is the case cast iron? There are part time
kits for those but it you want part time with the 460 I suggest
replacing it with an NP 205 which is gear drive and considered by the
experts to be the strongest light truck case ever built. You can get
heavy duty input and output shafts for it to make it even stronger.

Wander is usually due to tight king pins or ball joints which won't
allow the weight of the vehicle to force the steering linkage back to
center easily. Minor bumps tend to move the linkage and the
stiffness due to old grease or wear etc. tends to keep it where it
moves so constant corrections have to be made. Looseness in the
linkage, steering box or steering column u-joints can cause some as
well but usually if the alignment is good looseness isn't as likely
as tightness due to the above unless of course it's so loose that the
alignment won't stay consistant.

- -- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..
+---------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts -- 1979 and Older Digest ----------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
+-- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ --+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:25:20 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: RE: Wander and xfer cases

> From: Kevin Kemmerer
> Subject: RE: Wander and xfer cases
> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:36:19 -0400

> the bar that goes from the axle to the housing, to locate the axle
> sideways, is at a steep angle. this causes bump steer big time.

That's why most lift kits include a drop track bar bracket to keep
the bar more level but if you have lots of articulation and soft
springs you will still get some effect from the bar. Keeping the
drag link parallel with and as close to the same length as the track
bar is the secret to eliminating bump steer which happens when the
axle moves sideways more than the draglink and the closer to level or
parallel with the axle you can get them the better as well.

> have put in my truck, is that the pivot point where that bar
> connects to the axle is loose. the hole in the axle allows the bolt
> to "float", creeated very loose steering. i have bushed them, but

I just fixed this problem in my bronco. The track bar small end fits
into a bracket with a bolt and nut to hold it in place. The bolt is
a 9/16, fine thread which I haven't been able to replace yet so I
left it a bit less than totally tight which allowed the steel bushing
inside the poly bushing to snap back and forth in the bracket making
a loud noise which I thought was in the steering box or axle yokes
till I got some help and watched as you say while the steering wheel
was cycled from stop to stop. I closed my eyes and tightend the heck
out of the nut and it's quiet now :-) Two more ball joints and a toe
adjustment at the alignment shop and I can finish fine tuning the
track bar to center the steering wheel (and box).

BTW, the bronco has never wandered like my 78 pu with it's king pins
and put a load in it..........say your prayers! I got greasable
ball joints for the bronco but you have to take the plug out and
insert a zerk on the top one every time you lube it. Dang, nothins
easy!

- -- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:26:26 -0400
From: "Payne, Kenneth"
Subject: re: Exhaust/Rims????For 68

>ANybody know of a bolt on dual exhaust for the 68 f100 with a 302??I
>saw ones in jc whitney anybody use them????Also what size tire
>can I fit on a stock 68??Will a 32" tire fit?????????What are you
>guys with the 68-72's using for aftermarket rims???
>joe

I'm using 35"s on the rear of my 67. Not sure what the size is on the
front, I'd have to go out and check. As to the model years, its
67-72, not 68. You can easily identify the 67 as its the only year out
of the bunch that doesn't have the reflectors on the side hood trim.
Rear wheel size on my truck is 15x10. No rubbing problems, still a lot
of room left.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:44:11 -0700
From: marko helix.net (marko maryniak)
Subject: Re: Wander and xfer cases

I don't know exactly what you mean by wander, but you may wanna check your
steeringstabilizer and your tires before you go checking other things.

If the stab has leaked out then any little bump will push your steering off
line. I dunno if you have power steering or not but if you do you won't
feel the bumps as much but truck will still wander.

Also, if your tires are cooked (radial belts no longer aligned), worn
unevenly, improperly inflated, too wide, or just plain bias ply tires, then
they will grab the crown of the road and cause all manner of wandering.

About the kingpins (steering knuckle bearings, upper and lower), and tie rod
ends etc: check your steering for free-play, both loaded (wheels on the
ground) and unloaded (frt end jacked up). Jack up the truck, and then grab
each tire, pull it in and out (90deg to truck), then turn it right and left
quickly, then check kingpins by pushing on upper part of tire while pulling
on lower, and vice versa. Have somebody watch the tie rod ends and other
stuff when you do this. Listen for clunks. Also, do you have the
independent front suspension?

marko in vancouver

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:03:17 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Brakes, update

Spent a lot of travel time on my way home last night on my knees
crawling under the bronco to make small adjustments to the
proportioning valve, pulled off on gravel roads occasionally to check
the skid marks and now have almost acceptable brakes but the pedal is
still more mushy than I like and pedal pressure is higher than I
think it should be.

Soooooooo, I think when I finally get my Earls lines installed I'll
see some improvement in the mushiness but I don't know what to do
about the pedal pressure unless I go to sintered metal pads and
shoes. Anybody have any experience with these? Will an F-250
booster bolt up with no special problems? (not that I can afford it
right now)

The new ball joints seem to have helped the overall feel of the
steering but all the poly bushings still make for a rather mushy,
imprecise feel, more so than say the T Bird for sure but not too bad
for a truck I guess. Seems smoother over the bumps too probably due
to less rattle in the ball joints. It does track very well now, I
think even better than it did before replacing the joints which I
might have expected.

Well, we're gettin 'er tightened up pretty well so I guess the
transmission will be the next big project. I really hate to tear my
daily driver down to see if it needs work (exploratory surgery?) but
I guess that's what I'll have to do to be sure :-(

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:33:19 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: Wander and xfer cases

> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:44:11 -0700
> From: marko helix.net (marko maryniak)
> Subject: Re: Wander and xfer cases

> I don't know exactly what you mean by wander, but you may wanna
> check your steeringstabilizer and your tires before you go checking
> other things.
>
> If the stab has leaked out then any little bump will push your
> steering off line. I dunno if you have power steering or not but if
> you do you won't feel the bumps as much but truck will still wander.

My experience so far with stabalizers indicates that they tend to
exacerbate wandering if it's present since they add resistance to
centering through caster and angle of inclination. This was very
evident on my van, which I converted to 4wd and added to prevent
head shake syndrome. (very scary) I wasn't as knowledgeable then so
I didn't figure out exactly what to do to fix the problem and just
lived with it till the van died.

Since those days I've learned that a vehicle is more likely to wander
it the ball joints or king pins are seized up due to rust or hardened
grease or any of the other joints in the system are not free to move
easily. I intend to eventually put dual, opposing dampers on the
bronco but not till I have the front end completely restored and
aligned. I like the dual, opposing style because it inherently
eliminates the typical dead spots in the damping since the shocks are
at different places in their respective strokes at any given position
of the steering. My concern is how will I "elegantly" secure the
ends of the shocks to the axle housing? I will eventually weld
trusses on the dana 44 and at that point could also mount the bracket
for the dual dampers I suppose. I've seen many pictures of this
arrangement but no details on the actual mounting of it. Any ideas?

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:39:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: SARHOG aol.com
Subject: Re: 351C Horsepower Question

Dan posted:

I was just looking through an old Chilton's manual when I noticed something
odd. In 1971 the 351C 2V was rated at 240 HP, which is about what I'd
expect. But then in 1972 (the year I have) HP was only 164!!! Did they
add a bunch of emissions stuff in 72 to rob over 70 horses? Or did they
start measuring HP some other way? I mean, 76 horses is a lot--where did
it go?

~Dan

Your second guess is correct. They used to measure gross horsepower right
off the flywheel with little or no accessories (i.e. alternator, AC
compressor, etc.). Then, due to insurance rates I think, they went to
measuring net horsepower at the rear wheel with accessories. A little of
this is speculation on my part, so y'all feel free to jump in.

John Z
67 F-100 460/C-6

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:41:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: SuperMagot aol.com
Subject: Question - Overdrive transmission options

I am wondering if anyone outhere has any ideas for an overdrive transmission
solution. Let me first tell you what I have, and what I know.

I have a 70 1/2ton 2WD SWB with a 460 and a C-6. The rearend has 3.7 gears.
At around 60mph, the engine is doing 3000RPM.

Thats just a little to high for me, especially for such a light truck and a
big engine.

Heres options I have seen, and my comments....

Ford E4OD Tranny - Big, heavy, expensive, needs a computer to work.
A40D Tranny - doesnot fit a 460, and would probably break
Aftermarket 5 or 6 speed - would be nice, but I havenot seen any that handle
much more than 400 ft-lbs of torque. (I'd
probably break it)
I have heard of the additional gear boxes you can buy that stick on the end
of the
C-6. I have done research on these, and found that they are expensive, need
alot of maintenance, and I havenot found one that gives more than .7
overdrive.

So my question is...does anyone know of any other solutions?
Is there an aftermarket company that provides a 4-speed auto? Or maybe a
conversion of the A4OD? Or a non-computer version of the E4OD? Or a beefy
orverdrive manual that will work?

Thanks for your assistance!!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:53:14 -0400
From: billjhs
Subject: Interior 51

Hello,

My 1951 F-1 has no cardboard interior, Does anyone know how many pieces
the headliner comes in ??? Is is a headliner, quarter panels below the
headliner, a piece under the window and two pieces below the window ??
Thanks
Bill
1951 f-1

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:22:27 -0700
From: "Mark Mech"
Subject: 302 specs

Hi guys.
I'm new to this group, but am in the middle of a new engine for my 71
F-100.
I was wondering if anyone knows of an online source for torque specs etc.
This isnt the first time I've done major surgery so I dont want to go buy
an idiot book(Not saying I'm not an idiot!) I just need specs for head
bolts, flywheel,clutch,harmonic balancer, etc.
I bought a long block from a Ford authorized rebuilder (ATK) Does anyone
know if they are any good? I rebuilt the original in 1990 and put an RV cam
in it (killed my mileage) The current engine didnt really need rebuilding,
it just has valve guides that are tired enough that it is hard to pass
emmissions test.
....

---

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