pre61-list-digest Tuesday, September 22 1998 Volume 02 : Number 264



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1960 and Older trucks and vans
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In this issue:

FTE Pre61 - Re: what to do next?
Re: FTE Pre61 - Ford Engine Identification
FTE Pre61 - Engine/trans combos
FTE Pre61 - 56 Steering
FTE Pre61 - What do do next (Jack)
Re: FTE Pre61 - What to do next
RE: FTE Pre61 - What to do next
Re: FTE Pre61 - 56 Steering
Re: FTE Pre61 - Re: what to do next?
Re: FTE Pre61 - 56 Steering
Re: FTE Pre61 - 56 Steering
Re: FTE Pre61 - What to do next - Subframe
FTE Pre61 - what to do next

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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:33:33 EDT
From: BGar02167 aol.com
Subject: FTE Pre61 - Re: what to do next?

In a message dated 9/21/98 3:27:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-pre61-list-
digest ford-trucks.com writes:


had a $%# of a time identifying it, as it needed a new steering box, front
brakes and wheel cylinders in order to pass inspection. Now with the new
steering box its a bit better, but still really hard to steer. >>
These front ends didn't have power steering that was worth having until 67-8.
The power assist available previously was always leaking and will cost
hudreds,up to $1100.00. Your truck is definately "hotrodded" by definition of
having parts replaced w/ later-model parts. The 351 cleveland is not your
typical builder though. Mostly everyone wants the 351windsor or "small block".
If you can sell the truck before you spend more than it is worth to you,or use
it just like it is. Whoever had it before you used those parts because thatis
what they had , not because that is what anyone wants.
Good luck
Brian G
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:15:44 -0400
From: 47Fred
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - Ford Engine Identification

Tulio wrote:

> I just picked this up at the wrecking yard out of a '63 Ford F100 Custom
> Cab. I know it's not the stock engine but, what size it is I don't have
> a clue except it is at least a 351.
> So.... can anyone identify this engine and have parts
> that go to it?

What this world needs is a quick way to identify salvage parts, late models
have neat stickers and some parts even have bar codes, if classic vehicles
restoration continues into into the 2030's, our grandchildren will have it
too easy.

Some quick tips to identify ford motors
1: If it doesn't have valve covers, and the heads look like a porcupine,
it's a flathead. If the distrubutor is where you can actually change the
points, its a '49 up.
2: If the intake manifold appears to be part of the heads, and the valve
cover bolts to it, its an FE series. If its in a truck it's probably a 360.
3: If the water outlet comes out of the intake manifold and the exhaust
manifold bolts are in a horizontal line, its a Windsor series (221
ect,289,302 351W) Only major visible difference between 302 & 351W is the
width of the engine, 351 is much wider. 302 is most common, 4 bbl is rare.
4: If the water outlet is not on the manifold, and the exhaust manifold
bolts are staggered up & down on a diagonal, it's likely one of the
Cleveland family, 351C, 400 351M. In a truck it's probably a 351M, or a 400.

5: if the distributor is in the back, and at an angle to the left (facing
it) its a Y block, if it's straight up, its a Chevy, well ok, maybe a Mopar.

Most numbers cast into the engine parts are "engineering" numbers, they
won't always tell you the year of manufacture, but will rule out anything
earlier. example: C8AE would not have been built earlier than 1968, 'course
if I put '68 4V heads, with an '84 intake on a '67 block, you'd get some
strange combos.


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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:29:45 -0400
From: Paul
Subject: FTE Pre61 - Engine/trans combos

I know that over the months every possible combination has been
mentioned, but is there a site showing Ford engine/trans bolt patterns?
Thanks, Paul

Also, is there a site focusing on the Volare front end conversion? Do
those video tapes such as from Mid 50s help much?
Thanks, just trying to save a buck, Paul

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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:49:06 -0500
From: "jason olsen"
Subject: FTE Pre61 - 56 Steering

Hello all.
I have just bought my first 56 f-100 and I am just having a ball with it!!!
One thing that concerns me is that there is a little play in the steering.
I heard that this can be easily adjusted by a bolt, but I dont want to start
messing with my steering unless I have to. Any suggestions??
Jason



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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:17:50 EDT
From: RJC988 aol.com
Subject: FTE Pre61 - What do do next (Jack)

Jack Fleming,

I would echo much of what Kevin said in his reply to you (boy he's quick). I
would keep the 351C and C6. The Cleveland motor is a very stout engine. If
you have 2 V heads (I don't know how to tell) putting a smaller (say 500cfm) 4
barrel on the manifold will help with gas mileage greatly, especially if you
stay off of it (hard to do, ...huh)! You might need to look at the rear end
ratio to get better gas mileage (but slower off the line performance).

The noise issue might be due to headers. You didn't say if they were on your
truck, but headers tend to be noisier than cast iron manifolds. There is a
wrap that can be put on headers that is supposed to help with noise and cut
down on exhaust heat radiating from the metal. This is something you could
do.

The subframe is another issue. I might be doing someone the same favor. I
have installed a Lincoln Town Car front clip in my 57 (is anybody tired of
hearing about that yet)? After doing so, I read an article about putting
Camaro clips in ch*vy pickups. The one thing I did not do that the article
made a point of was to put the clip in with the right camber. I just welded
it in where it "looked" right. I might pay for that later. I can't believe
that anything was gained by putting in a 64 Galaxy clip. Cutting off the
front and putting a late model clip is the cheapest (sometimes) way to get
IFS, power disk brakes, and power steering to a pre-IFS truck. The best
alternative to this would be to get a later model truck frame (after 1973 or
so) that the wheelbase and frame width match your 54, and mate your truck body
to this. An expensive alternative is to go to someone like Fatman
fabrications or Art Morrison and have a frame built. Fatman advertises a 53 -
54 frame with a Mustang II cross-member for around $2500 (+ shipping I'm
sure).

I hope some of this running on helps. Keep us informed.

Glenn in TN
Soapy the 57 F-100
"If you don't change direction, you'll wind up where your headed."
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:48:51 -0400
From: gvanderg
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - What to do next

Jack, I would be glad to swap my flathead and 3 speed (pops out of 2nd
gear) for your cleveland 351C/C6 combo. The Butch has never been over
50 MPH. 0 to 50 1.2 minutes.

Jack Fleming wrote:
>
> Gurus of the list:
>
> Well, we finally have our '54 F100 on the road. This truck was
> significantly modified by a previous owner, and we've had to undo a lot of
> things to get it running and through the PA inspection process. But now
> I'm really wondering where we should try to go with this thing..... The
> truck has a 351C and C-6. The engine has been hot rodded (has an odd
> looking high rise manifold and an as yet unidentified 4V carb, chromed
> Edelbrock valve covers, etc.... Its very loud despite a brand new exhaust
> system. The engine runs at about 200-210 degrees water temp, but heat from
> the engine compartment comes into the cab like a blast furnace. I've bought
> some foil-backed firewall insulation, but haven't put it in yet. The
> radiator is almost definitely NOT original, but looks to be a bit oversized
> from what the original would have been given its mounting. The fan shroud
> has been chopped (hacked) back in spots for no really obvious reason.
>
> I bought this truck as a present for my 73 yr old Dad, who is having a ball
> with it. Its intended as a toy, not to be totally restored, but driven
> safely around town for fun. Unfortunately, neither he nor I are very
> mechanically experienced, and I'm having to have a lot of the work on the
> truck done professionally. Now comes the real issue - I'm really wondering
> if I shouldn't look into replacing the 351C with something a little simpler
> and more practical. I'd almost certainly have to have the swap done by a
> pro, but I'm wondering a couple of things: 1. what's the chances I could
> swap someone the 351C for another (smaller) engine - our engine runs well,
> its just too much for the intended use of our truck. 2. given the C-6
> tranny I currently have, what other engines would this tranny bolt up to
> with minimal alteration.
>
> Finally, to really show my ignorance, someone needs to help me out with the
> subframing on this thing. The front end of the original chasis was cut
> off, and the front end from a '61 galaxy was welded on to the truck. We
> had a $%# of a time identifying it, as it needed a new steering box, front
> brakes and wheel cylinders in order to pass inspection. Now with the new
> steering box its a bit better, but still really hard to steer. Is it
> possible to re-subframe this thing? Is cutting off the frame like this one
> is the "normal" method of doing an IFS? I'd love to be able to go to disk
> brakes and power steering on this thing, but really don't know where to
> start. Any and all suggestions gladly welcome
>
> Jack Fleming
> '54 F100
>
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:57:58 -0400
From: Jack Fleming
Subject: RE: FTE Pre61 - What to do next

Thanks - your comments pretty closely parallel most of the mail I've
gotten. I think what I'll do is keep what I have and see what we can do
with it. I'm going to spend some time getting to know the engine better
this weekend - trying to figure out the manifold/carb combo, etc. Right
now it runs well, and I'm more interested in improving the steering
issue....thanks.

Jack Fleming
'54 F100 (Now on the road!)



At 08:29 PM 9/20/98 -0000, you wrote:
>Jack,
>
> Most of what you describe about the engine is cosmetic, do you know it has
>be 'hot rodded' as you say or are you just going by what it looks like? 351c
>is a good motor, have you thought about maybe changing out a few of the
>parts on the Cleveland and keeping it? If you want to find out if it has
>been significantly altered, take it to someone who can check compression,
>valves, etc. An engine swap like you are talking about can be expensive, if
>you can keep what you got, do it.
>
> The subframe can be a nightmare also, depending on how good a job was done
>before. It is very common to cut the frame and replace it, also very
>expensive. If there is no problem with the current setup other than the
>steering you mentioned, I would try to find out if there is a way to put
>power steering on the existing frame.



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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:05:57 -0400
From: gvanderg
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - 56 Steering

Jason, I copied this off of this forum earlier as it is very helpful.

Six inches is way too much. On center, they say there shouldn't be
any,
but I've never seen one that tight. The procedure in the manual (49-52,
but
damn close) is to: 1. disconnect the drag link from the pitman arm.
2.
Loosen the steering column tube to instrument panel bracket. 3. Back
the
side (sector) adjustment out (counterclockwise) to remove any load. 3.
Measure the force needed to rotate the wheel at the center of it's
rotation.
This is kinda the hard part. Ford must have had a spring scale, like a
fish
scale, which read in ounces. It should be 1/4 to 3/4 pound
on F1, F2, and F3, 1/2 to 1 lb on all others. I used a postal scale to
measure the weight of some sockets, then put them in a mesh bag my wife
(used
to) use for washing 'delicates,' then ran it's tie sting from the top of
the
steering wheel off to the side, then over a socket extension straight
down. I
think this translates into the force needed to turn the wheel. I also
measure
quarters ($0.25 pieces) to see what they weighed, if you don't have a
scale.
1/4 pound (4 ounces) is ~16 quarters, 3/4 pound (12 ounces) is
therefore ~48
quarters. You take it from there. If this measurement isn't right,
your need
to change the stack of shims under the shaft. Then shims are actually
gaskets
of varying thicknesses, and a selection is available from most of our
common
suppliers. This is a messy and iterative process. You need to have
some gear
lube in the box to accurately measure the turning force, then you need
to
remove the bottom plate to change shims, which dribbles gear lube all
over.
Once this is in spec, center the wheel. Then, turn the 'sector shaft
thrust adjusting screw' (side adjuster) until 'all end play is removed
from
the sector shaft.' Then the force should measure between 1 and 2 pounds
on
the F1, F2, and F3, and 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 pounds on other models.
I have found that when the gears are too worn, tightening the sector
shaft
adjusting screw too much jams the sector against the housing, which of
course
makes the wheel harder to turn, but doesn't reduce the free play or have
the
intended affect on steering accuracy. Then there's nothing left to do
but
replace the steering shaft (worm) and sector, or the whole box. Other
things
that wear out are the roller bearings on top and below the worm on the
steering shaft, the bushings on the outside of the sector, and the seal
on the
outside of the sector. If you're going to the expense (considerable) of
replacing the worm and sector, its probably worth replacing at least the
bearings and the seal. The bushings must require reaming to size, but
I've
never messed with those, so can't give practical advice.

jason olsen wrote:
>
> Hello all.
> I have just bought my first 56 f-100 and I am just having a ball with it!!!
> One thing that concerns me is that there is a little play in the steering.
> I heard that this can be easily adjusted by a bolt, but I dont want to start
> messing with my steering unless I have to. Any suggestions??
> Jason
>
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:11:57 EDT
From: JRFiero aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - Re: what to do next?

In a message dated 98-09-21 08:35:05 EDT, you write:


typical builder though. Mostly everyone wants the 351windsor or "small
block". >>

Now wait a minute.
People build Windsors because they're available. Clevelands have a bunch
more potential as a real hot rod motor, to my limited understanding of things.
For much more knowledgable input on the motor, see the 61+ list or the
performance list.
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:21:24 EDT
From: JRFiero aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - 56 Steering

In a message dated 98-09-21 18:47:43 EDT, you write:


I heard that this can be easily adjusted by a bolt, but I dont want to start
messing with my steering unless I have to. Any suggestions?? >>

Get a Ford manual. First check the drag link, its the easiest. Crank each
end in tight, then back it off to the next location where the cotter pin will
fit through. If that's adjusted, and the tie rods and king pins are ok, then
go to the box. There are two basic adjustments, bearing preload on the
steering shaft (the worm), and the 'bolt' you mention on the sector. Bearing
preload is set with 'shims,' which are just gaskets of varying thicknesses
readily available. The sector adjusting bolt then sets the clearance 'tween
the gears. You'll be lucky if you can adjust it to spec, tho. Amazing wear
on these things. Then the only option is an expensive new set of shaft/sector
or a rebuilt box. And once you do it you'll say 'Jeez, I should have done
this years ago.'
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:26:39 EDT
From: JRFiero aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - 56 Steering

In a message dated 98-09-21 21:06:48 EDT, you write:


Jason, I copied this off of this forum earlier as it is very helpful.
>>
Hey! I'm glad you saved all that, I didn't feel like typing it in again.
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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:49:14 -0400
From: "Robert Person"
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - What to do next - Subframe

I just read SOMEWHERE, that there is a subframe out for the mid 50s Fords
that gets welded into the stock frame cut off right at the firewall. I'll
keep checking
...
>> Finally, to really show my ignorance, someone needs to help me out with
the
>> subframing on this thing. The front end of the original chasis was cut
>> off, and the front end from a '61 galaxy was welded on to the truck. We
>> had a $%# of a time identifying it, as it needed a new steering box,
front
>> brakes and wheel cylinders in order to pass inspection. Now with the new
>> steering box its a bit better, but still really hard to steer. Is it
>> possible to re-subframe this thing? Is cutting off the frame like this
one
>> is the "normal" method of doing an IFS? I'd love to be able to go to
disk
>> brakes and power steering on this thing, but really don't know where to
>> start. Any and all suggestions gladly welcome
>>
>> Jack Fleming
>> '54 F100
>>

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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:36:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Oldtrukman webtv.net (R. Pietsch)
Subject: FTE Pre61 - what to do next

Hello Jack. In reguards to your possible engine swap, your C6 tranny
will bolt up to the late 289's, the 302, the 351W, and I've been told
also the 300 cu.in. 6 cyl. I'm not possitive about the 6 cyl., but the
others are for sure. I ran a 302 in my '56 for severel years, and was
very happy with it except it was a little light on power for pulling my
trailer, (22' 5th wheel) so I upgraded to the 351C last year. boy what a
difference in power that made. I was suprized that it didn't cost me
anything in milage. In fact I now get better milage towing the trailer....


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