pre61-list-digest Tuesday, June 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 170



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1960 and Older trucks and vans
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In this issue:

RE: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage
looking for an article
Re: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage
Dual point dizzy. (was dwell angle)
Re: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage
Re: NEED HELP - engine swap 460BBL
Re: NEED HELP - engine swap 460BBL
That Crossover Pipe
Show Questions
Re: power steering conversion.
Re: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage
Re: power steering conversion.

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:29:25 -0400
From: Alec Fernandez
Subject: RE: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage

> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdelanty sonic.net [SMTP:sdelanty sonic.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 1998 3:50 AM
> To: pre61-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage
>
> >I need help!! What is the difference between dwell angle and dwell
> >percentage? I have my 52 F1-- the dwell gage says that I have about
> 19
> >degrees of dwell, however the book (FORD Shop Manual) talks about
> 58-62%
> >dwell closure. I cannot find any transformation tables or conversion
> >factors. What should the dwell meter say? Is my 19 degrees right?
> The
> >truck seems to run just fine?!!!!!!! This cannot be complicated,
> however,
> >don't have any guidance on this matter.
>
> Dwell angle is the *number of degrees* of distributor rotation that
> the
> points are closed prior to firing each cylinder.
>
> Percentage dwell closure is the *percentage* of 1 full open/close
> cycle that
> the points are closed.
>
> For an 8 cylinder motor the open/close cycle for each cylinder is 45
> distributor degrees, so a dwell angle of 19 degrees would be a dwell
> closure
> percentage of 42.2%.
>
> A dwell closure of 60% should be 27 degrees of dwell.
>
> Unless You've got a 6 cylinder, then those numbers are all wrong...
> (they may be anyway, it's late! :)
>
[Alec Fernandez Says:]
You're heading in the wrong direction with a 6 cylinder.

360 degrees divided by 6 cylinders = 60 degrees rotation per
cylinder

60 degrees * 60 percent = 36 degree dwell angle (as opposed to)
45 degrees * 60 percent = 27 degree dwell angle (with 8 cyl)

I wish I had my shop manual here to see what a typical 8
cylinder
dwell angle is but if this math is right you should increase
your point gap
a good bit and the truck will run better. And should increase
your
point life. (Keep in mind that this will retard your timing so
you'll
have to compensate).

Good luck,
Vaseline Boy


Here's a question for you performance guys: Why dual point
distributors?
(Caution, may be off topic!)

Is it to increase dwell angle so you get more spark energy or
because at high
revs the points bounce so much that you have to have 2 sets so
that
you can get the first one closed and start on the next spark
cycle while
the second set (the one that causes the spark) is still bounced
open.
Or is it just because the points burn up so fast if you set the
gap small
enough to get a big dwell. In other words, do dual point
distributors give
you a bigger dwell angle or just higher revs with the same dwell
angle?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: jniolon uss.com
Subject: looking for an article


does anyone have a december 1994 issue of Custom and Classic Truck who
can make a copy of an article for me ???

john

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:30:28 EDT
From: TonyDePaul aol.com
Subject: Re: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage

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Hello, everybody,

Interesting thread on dwell angle and dwell percentage. I've had a devil of
time myself with these issues. My '49 F-1 has the small H-series Six. The shop
manual says to open the gap .024 to .026 to achieve a dwell percent of 58 to
63.

I've never been able to run the truck with the points open that far. Instead,
I set the points to .014-.016, the spec for the Flathead Eight, and that gives
me a dwell angle of 40 degrees on the meter. I don't know if that's right, but
the truck starts well and has power all through the rpm range.

I am burning up points, but I think that's a separate problem with the ballast
resistor and/or the condenser. But given what Alec says below, maybe not.
Could be I'm just turned around on the point gap.

Hmmm....

Tony De Paul
Cranston, Rhode Island
'49 F-1

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Message-Id:
From: Alec Fernandez
To: pre61-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: RE: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:29:25 -0400
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdelanty sonic.net [SMTP:sdelanty sonic.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 1998 3:50 AM
> To: pre61-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage
>
> >I need help!! What is the difference between dwell angle and dwell
> >percentage? I have my 52 F1-- the dwell gage says that I have about
> 19
> >degrees of dwell, however the book (FORD Shop Manual) talks about
> 58-62%
> >dwell closure. I cannot find any transformation tables or conversion
> >factors. What should the dwell meter say? Is my 19 degrees right?
> The
> >truck seems to run just fine?!!!!!!! This cannot be complicated,
> however,
> >don't have any guidance on this matter.
>
> Dwell angle is the *number of degrees* of distributor rotation that
> the
> points are closed prior to firing each cylinder.
>
> Percentage dwell closure is the *percentage* of 1 full open/close
> cycle that
> the points are closed.
>
> For an 8 cylinder motor the open/close cycle for each cylinder is 45
> distributor degrees, so a dwell angle of 19 degrees would be a dwell
> closure
> percentage of 42.2%.
>
> A dwell closure of 60% should be 27 degrees of dwell.
>
> Unless You've got a 6 cylinder, then those numbers are all wrong...
> (they may be anyway, it's late! :)
>
[Alec Fernandez Says:]
You're heading in the wrong direction with a 6 cylinder.

360 degrees divided by 6 cylinders = 60 degrees rotation per
cylinder

60 degrees * 60 percent = 36 degree dwell angle (as opposed to)
45 degrees * 60 percent = 27 degree dwell angle (with 8 cyl)

I wish I had my shop manual here to see what a typical 8
cylinder
dwell angle is but if this math is right you should increase
your point gap
a good bit and the truck will run better. And should increase
your
point life. (Keep in mind that this will retard your timing so
you'll
have to compensate).

Good luck,
Vaseline Boy


Here's a question for you performance guys: Why dual point
distributors?
(Caution, may be off topic!)

Is it to increase dwell angle so you get more spark energy or
because at high
revs the points bounce so much that you have to have 2 sets so
that
you can get the first one closed and start on the next spark
cycle while
the second set (the one that causes the spark) is still bounced
open.
Or is it just because the points burn up so fast if you set the
gap small
enough to get a big dwell. In other words, do dual point
distributors give
you a bigger dwell angle or just higher revs with the same dwell
angle?



- --part0_897928228_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:25:31 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
Subject: Dual point dizzy. (was dwell angle)

Here's a question for you performance guys: Why dual point
distributors?
(Caution, may be off topic!)

Is it to increase dwell angle so you get more spark energy or
because at high
revs the points bounce so much that you have to have 2 sets so
that
you can get the first one closed and start on the next spark
cycle while
the second set (the one that causes the spark) is still bounced
open.
Or is it just because the points burn up so fast if you set the
gap small
enough to get a big dwell. In other words, do dual point
distributors give
you a bigger dwell angle or just higher revs with the same dwell
angle?

They give longer dwell.
The ign coil needs a certain amount of time to build up a good magnetic
field. With a points system, the time the coil gets to charge is while the
points are closed, which is a fixed percentage of the total open/close cycle.
As RPM goes up, obviously the coil has less time to "charge up" and so
spark energy drops as RPM goes up. You can give the coil a longer charge
time by increasing point dwell, but doing so also reduces the point gap,
which promotes arcing and reduces points life. You could make the ramps
on the distributor cam steeper, to keep long dwell but still get the points
open farther and faster, but then it gets hard to keep the points under
control at high RPM and You get bounce and float and timing goes all to
hell. You could reduce bounce with stiffer points spring, but that seriously
accelerates disributor cam and rubbing block wear...
It's really hard to keep good coil charge time with a single points
distributor at very high RPM's.

With a dual point dizzy, 2 sets of points are wired in parallel and arranged
so that one set opens and closes several degrees later than the other.
This way, each set can have a fairly normal dwell angle and points gap, but
the charging to to the coil is longer, being something silly like:
1/2 the dwell of points "A" plus 1/2 the dwell of points "B" plus the
seperation
angle of the 2 sets.
So if Your dual point dizzy has the points separated by 10 degrees and each
set of points has a dwell of 28 degrees, the coil would see a total dwell of
38 degrees.
Dual point dizzys are cute and can work well, but probably aren't necessary
unless You visit the 6500+ RPM zone regularly.
Personally, I prefer my coil charge time to be managed by a few transistors
and triggered by a magnetic pickup. That keeps the coil charge time constant
regardless of RPM, and eliminates point life and point bounce issues...
Why waste time on points systems if You can retrofit electronic and aren't
looking for showroom stock? (-:

Steve
Homepage: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.sonic.net/~sdelanty/

Opportunity may knock only once, but temptation
leans on the doorbell.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:01:26 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
Subject: Re: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage

>Interesting thread on dwell angle and dwell percentage. I've had a devil of
>time myself with these issues. My '49 F-1 has the small H-series Six. The shop
>manual says to open the gap .024 to .026 to achieve a dwell percent of 58 to
>63.
>
>I've never been able to run the truck with the points open that far. Instead,
>I set the points to .014-.016, the spec for the Flathead Eight, and that gives
>me a dwell angle of 40 degrees on the meter. I don't know if that's right, but
>the truck starts well and has power all through the rpm range.

You're pretty close to spec with a dwell angle of 40 degrees. That's 66.7
percent dwell, just a few degrees over the 58-63% spec.
58-63 percent dwell would actually be a dwell angle of 34.8 to 37.8 degrees
on a 6 cylinder. I'll bet if You open the points to maybe .018" or so, it
puts You right into the 58-63% spec.

I dunno where that .024"-026" gap spec comes from. That's a LOT of gap!
Can't imagine that would give You hardly any dwell...

Steve
Homepage: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.sonic.net/~sdelanty/

Opportunity may knock only once, but temptation
leans on the doorbell.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:35:48 -0700
From: Andy Vandergrifth
Subject: Re: NEED HELP - engine swap 460BBL

I'll keep this as short as I can. I just purchased a 77 Lincon Cont. with a 460
and a C6 tranny for $200. Why $200? Well the car was brought here (southern
California) from Virginia, and if you live in So Cal you know Smog laws and ect.
Won't pass smog because not California equipped. Long story short he would have
to put in more that he had. So he sold it for a one way ticket to Virginia. The
car runs great - compression on engine is solid and plugs looked fine.

My question is this. I am going to put this beast in a 55F100. What will I have
to do??
I know most of it but I want to know all.

Thanks
Andy in So Cal.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:01:55 -0600
From: "Joe Michels"
Subject: Re: NEED HELP - engine swap 460BBL

How does putting "this beast" in a 55 F100 beat the Southern Calif smog
rules? If the engine does not pass smog rules in the Lincoln, I doubt
putting it in a 55 F100 will change anything from a smog perspective. What
am I missing here?



- ----------
> From: Andy Vandergrifth
> To: pre61-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: NEED HELP - engine swap 460BBL
> Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 4:35 PM
>
> I'll keep this as short as I can. I just purchased a 77 Lincon Cont.
with a 460
> and a C6 tranny for $200. Why $200? Well the car was brought here
(southern
> California) from Virginia, and if you live in So Cal you know Smog laws
and ect.
> Won't pass smog because not California equipped. Long story short he
would have
> to put in more that he had. So he sold it for a one way ticket to
Virginia. The
> car runs great - compression on engine is solid and plugs looked fine.
>
> My question is this. I am going to put this beast in a 55F100. What
will I have
> to do??
> I know most of it but I want to know all.
>
> Thanks
> Andy in So Cal.
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:34:38 -0400
From: "Don & Teresa Neighbors"
Subject: That Crossover Pipe

Paul wrote: "I just purchased a new crossover pipe for my '59 F100 292 V8.
I am confused as to how the two piece unit is installed so that exhaust
doesn't leak where the two pieces mate. The original pipe
(which is currently leaking!) is also two pieces and, as far as I
can tell, never had any type of clamp at the joint."
Paul, I have two Y-blocks with that crossover pipe, neither are clamped,
and neither leak. Why? I have no idea! I have never seen a clamp there On
any Y-block I've seen, but that's not many.

Don Neighbors
'54 F250 Named Grover

"Any dropped tool or part will automatically fall into the most
innaccesible part of the vehicle."

kyneighbors kih.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:17:13 -0400
From: "Howard Tarnoff"
Subject: Show Questions

Hi gang,

>From previous posts I guess that only Abe is going to
stop by and say hello. Too bad, guess I should have
got the trailer in time for the F100 Nationals.

Anyhow, here is my question. This is the first judged
show we are doing of any consequence. I have heard
that:

a) some allow two exceptions to stock. What is this about?

b) they judge on upkeep versus neglect. Don't know what
this is about but someone told me that they take off points
for rusted muffler clamps. Is this true?

Anyone out there done a major show before? What is the
upside? What should I be spending my time on?

Thanks


Howard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:58:49 EDT
From: S2452 aol.com
Subject: Re: power steering conversion.

I have a 1952 Ford F-1 that I drive every day. I would like to adapt a
power steering box to fit it. Has anyone already done a swap like this or know
of a kit to do it? thanks; Scott Wilson.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:03:29 EDT
From: TonyDePaul aol.com
Subject: Re: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage

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Steve,

Thanks for your response below. I think the manual must be in error, too.

I'm looking at page 380 on the 49-50-51 manual. It gives a dwell percent of
58-63 on ALL engines. It specifies the .024-.026 point gap on the two sixes
(H-series and M-series) and .014-.016 gap on the eights (R-series and E-
series).

Tony


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Subject: Re: Dwell Angle versus Dwell Percentage
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>Interesting thread on dwell angle and dwell percentage. I've had a devil of
>time myself with these issues. My '49 F-1 has the small H-series Six. The
shop
>manual says to open the gap .024 to .026 to achieve a dwell percent of 58 to
>63.
>
>I've never been able to run the truck with the points open that far. Instead,
>I set the points to .014-.016, the spec for the Flathead Eight, and that
gives
>me a dwell angle of 40 degrees on the meter. I don't know if that's right,
but
>the truck starts well and has power all through the rpm range.

You're pretty close to spec with a dwell angle of 40 degrees. That's 66.7
percent dwell, just a few degrees over the 58-63% spec.
58-63 percent dwell would actually be a dwell angle of 34.8 to 37.8 degrees
on a 6 cylinder. I'll bet if You open the points to maybe .018" or so, it
puts You right into the 58-63% spec.

I dunno where that .024"-026" gap spec comes from. That's a LOT of gap!
Can't imagine that would give You hardly any dwell...

Steve
Homepage: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.sonic.net/~sdelanty/

Opportunity may knock only once, but temptation
leans on the doorbell.


- --part0_897969809_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:01:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott
Subject: Re: power steering conversion.

- ---S2452 aol.com wrote:
>
> I have a 1952 Ford F-1 that I drive every day. I would like to....


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