pre61-list-digest Friday, June 5 1998 Volume 02 : Number 159



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1960 and Older trucks and vans
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In this issue:

FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 brake fluid
RE: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 brake fluid
Re: FTE Pre61 - 1958 parts needed
Re: FTE Pre61 - Title
Re: FTE Pre61 - Title
Re: FTE Pre61 - brakes and '48 F-1 buyers advice
Re: FTE Pre61 - brakes and '48 F-1 buyers advice
FTE Pre61 - Fw: auction in Pa. Big block bonanza
FTE Pre61 - Cover for '53
FTE Pre61 - Re: Flathead V-8
Re: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 and other brake fluids
FTE Pre61 - Silicone Brake Fluid
FTE Pre61 - '58 Parts
Re: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 brake fluid
Re: FTE Pre61 - More DOT 5
RE: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 brake fluid
Re: FTE Pre61 - Silicone Brake Fluid
Re: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 and other brake fluids

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:54:00 -0500
From: "Mike Morton "
Subject: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 brake fluid

>Rich,
> You advised anyone doing a brake job to replace the old fluid
with
>DOT 5 fluid. However, I am replacing the wheel cylinders on my '48
>F-68 (U.S. F-2), and was talking to a mechanic who said that D.O.T. 5
>fluid will corrode some types of rubber and brake systems. I was also
told
>that DOT 3 and DOT 4 are both natural fluids, but DOT 4 is made to
handle
>more heat which is not a problem on drum brakes. Being natural fluids,
>this grade will absorb water simply by contacting air etc. However, DOT
5
>is a synthetic fluid, and so creates the corrosion problem. Is this all
>correct? If so, can my '48 system support the DOT 5 fluid?

Wouldn't the corrosion come from the water in DOT 3 and 4. I've seen
several systems that sat for a few years with DOT 3 or 4 and when we
went to bleed the brakes or work on anything it looked pretty bad and
parts were starting to corrode. I know I sure don't get any on my paint.
I've been told by a local brake shop that DOT 5 is better as silicon is
considered an inert material. They say it won't harm anything.
Don't most of the commercial dash and upholstery protectants have
silicon in them?
The only problem I have heard of is that silicon is slightly more mushy
then DOT 3 or 4. Does anybody know if this is true?
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 08:39:42 -0400
From: Alec Fernandez
Subject: RE: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 brake fluid

I haven't seen much published on Dot 5 v. Dot 4/3 fluids so this is
hearsay but like Ray I converted a '67 Mustang over to it about 7 years
ago and it's been great. I can't tell any difference at all in pedal
feel (non-power drum brakes) and you don't have to worry about spilling
it on painted surfaces. I converted over because of the lack of
corrosion of painted surfaces becuase by '67 they had sealed the brake
master cylinder so water wasn't as big a problem (no air to brake fluid
contact as long as the master cylinder cover was in place).
I got the stuff from Eastwood because it was hard to find back then and
they advised me to never mix it with the Dot 3/4 stuff so I carried
around a container in the car for a long time thinking if I ever needed
some on the road I wouldn't find it but that container has never been
opened. Granted I don't drive the car much but I'd never been that long
in my life between top offs at the master cylinder. I'd convert if I
had a non-sealed brake system, maybe it does "eat" the rubber cups but
it takes longer than 10 years before they are eaten enough to start
leaking ;-)

Reading this over I see there's not much useful in this post but it's
typed in now so here goes.

Speaking of brakes, anybody done anything with converting over to self
adjusting brakes? Like anybody know which backing plates will work for
a '53-'56?

Alec

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Morton [SMTP:mmorto wgc.woodward.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 04, 1998 7:54 AM
> To: Ford Trucks
> Subject: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 brake fluid
> Importance: High
>
> >Rich,
> > You advised anyone doing a brake job to replace the old fluid
> with
> >DOT 5 fluid. However, I am replacing the wheel cylinders on my '48
> >F-68 (U.S. F-2), and was talking to a mechanic who said that D.O.T. 5
> >fluid will corrode some types of rubber and brake systems. I was also
> told
> >that DOT 3 and DOT 4 are both natural fluids, but DOT 4 is made to
> handle
> >more heat which is not a problem on drum brakes. Being natural
> fluids,
> >this grade will absorb water simply by contacting air etc. However,
> DOT
> 5
> >is a synthetic fluid, and so creates the corrosion problem. Is this
> all
> >correct? If so, can my '48 system support the DOT 5 fluid?
>
> Wouldn't the corrosion come from the water in DOT 3 and 4. I've seen
> several systems that sat for a few years with DOT 3 or 4 and when we
> went to bleed the brakes or work on anything it looked pretty bad and
> parts were starting to corrode. I know I sure don't get any on my
> paint.
> I've been told by a local brake shop that DOT 5 is better as silicon
> is
> considered an inert material. They say it won't harm anything.
> Don't most of the commercial dash and upholstery protectants have
> silicon in them?
> The only problem I have heard of is that silicon is slightly more
> mushy
> then DOT 3 or 4. Does anybody know if this is true?
> = Ford Truck Enthusiasts
> ==============================================
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> =
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 09:42:51 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - 1958 parts needed

At 11:17 PM 6/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>O.E.M. only ( aftermarket in such an obvious place is unacceptable ) ;-)
>

I guess you haven't seen some of the stuff produced? If you were
at the Pigeon Forge show you'd appreciate that the quality of
aftermarket often exceeds orginal. Garry Bowling on the 61-79
has an aftermarket tail-gate on his 67, looks perfect. Besides,
Ford obsoleted this stuff decades ago, there is **no** OEM, except
NOS and very little of that! If you hope to put only Ford on that
truck, you'll be waiting a long time!

>Cdalep aol.com wrote:
>
>> Ryan, you can get a catalogue for parts (like a tailgate) from Auto
Krafters
>> Inc at www.auto krafters. com . Hope this helps.
>> Cliff
>


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:30:30 -0400
From: "bill daly"
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - Title

Yes, Fred. Good advice. You want title hassles? Buy a salvage truck in
California andget it registered in New York, which has some of the strangest
Catch-22-like laws regarding pickup trucks in the universe.

If you wanna hear the story, I'll tell it, but it ain't pretty.

Good luck!

Jan & Louise (who's leakin' agin)

>Thank goodness I live in a state that doesn't require a title after 10
>years, but you still need a serial number which is hard to get sometimes.
>My advice to Bill is to pick up the phone and call motor vehicles or what
>ever they call it in your state, and find out what the requirements are.
>Sometimes the hardest part of a restoration job is the paper work. If your
>state is anything like Maine or Mass., you are in for a hassle and I'll bet
>some paper mill in a magazine won't do much but lighten your wallet.
>
>47 Fred
>
>= Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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>



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:49:26 -0400
From: "bill daly"
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - Title

Don't think you'll find a way to circumvent what you outline. Basically,
vehivles are kind of like real estate, title-wise, and the government wants
to see a "chain of title." That's the only way they can be sure, and you
can be sure, you've gotten a thing that will remain in your hands; that no
one can step up and say, "This belongs to me." Hey, it's a small price to
pay to have a lovely Ford pickup.

Jan & "Louise"
'53 F-250

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mr. Flood
To: pre61-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - Title


>Hello!
>
>Title hassel you say.......
>
>Well my Grampa gave me my truck, when I was 15. I did not take real
possession
>until I was 33. I removed it from the property last April. My Mother was
heir to
>the estate, she recieved all the property. I thought this was going to be
easy, I
>even had the registration, VIN and title number. This is how Wisconsin
rips you
>off.
>1. Transfer of title from grampa to his estate.
>2.From his estate to my Mother.
>3. From mother to myself.
>4. Then I license the truck with an antique plate.
>Lets see thats $21.00 X 3 + $5.00 for the plate. Then show proof of death
via death
>cert. Proof of estate without probate. Proof of Grampas name and address to
>correspond with registration and county that the vehicle was kept in. And
to make
>things more interesting they have to recreate the title..... Plus there
are three
>different addresses to send to, to accomplish this small task. One place
at a time
>or no doubt someone will screw things up!
>
>Does anyone have any creative ideas to circumvent a couple of steps?? Like
pretend
>that Gramps is still alive??? The truck has been our property since his
death in
>'83. Is there any way?
>
>Bill Flood
>'39 P/U
>Marathon, WI
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>= Ford Truck Enthusiasts ==============================================
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>"unsubscribe pre61-list" in the message body.
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>



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:26:59 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - brakes and '48 F-1 buyers advice

At 01:00 AM 6/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Rich,
>> You advised anyone doing a brake job to replace the old fluid with
>>DOT 5 fluid. However, I am replacing the wheel cylinders on my '48
>>F-68 (U.S. F-2), and was talking to a mechanic who said that D.O.T. 5
>>fluid will corrode some types of rubber and brake systems. I was also told
>>that DOT 3 and DOT 4 are both natural fluids, but DOT 4 is made to handle
>>more heat which is not a problem on drum brakes. Being natural fluids,
>>this grade will absorb water simply by contacting air etc. However, DOT 5
>>is a synthetic fluid, and so creates the corrosion problem. Is this all
>>correct? If so, can my '48 system support the DOT 5 fluid?

>Yeah, Rich, Is that DOT 5 Gonna eat out my brake system? :-)

It's always been my understanding that DOT5 is the fluid of choice
for doing restorations and show cars because it doesn't absorb moisture
like DOT3/4 fluids do, so it doesn't rust out all the iron parts when the
vehicle sits for awhile. The only catch is that the silicone fluids are
not compatable with the DOT3/4 stuff, so You need to completely disassemble
the brake system and clean/dry all the parts and lines to remove *all*
traces of old fluid. There shouldn't be a compatability problem with the
stock rubber seals.
I've also heard that the silicone fluid can be a problem if You have a
leaky master cylinder/vacuum booster setup that lets some fluid be sucked
into the intake manifold and burned.
Someone on another list had this happen and posted a picture of a spark
plug that was covered with a hard fuzzy deposit. It looked like it had
a wad of fiberglass fibers on the end of it, short strings of very hard
material that eats up rings and cylinders and stuff. It pretty well
ruined his motor.
Apparently when the silicone fluid burns it turns back into sand...


Steve
Homepage: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.sonic.net/~sdelanty/

Opportunity may knock only once, but temptation
leans on the doorbell.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:43:07 -0400
From: "John Miller"
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - brakes and '48 F-1 buyers advice

- ----------
> From: sdelanty sonic.net



> I've also heard that the silicone fluid can be a problem if You have a
> leaky master cylinder/vacuum booster setup that lets some fluid be
sucked
> into the intake manifold and burned.

if this does happen and you are running any engine setup with an O2
sensor(s) it will destroy those also, renders them useless or inaccurate at
best. We had quite a time back in '80 and '81 getting rid of all the RTV's
that contained silicone as it would leach into the combustion process and
destroy the sensors.

I also concur with your comments about DOT 5. DOT 3 & 4 are hydroscopic and
not only will they absorb moisture setting up corrosion but you will also
begin to grow your own little science fair within the system. Rolls-Royce
had huge reservoirs ( like 4qts ) on systems built after '67 I think it was
and sometimes it was downright scary opening those things up after years of
neglect ( kind of like my fridge in my first apartment) They eventually
went to a synthetic fluid, but they have a completely different type thing
going than us, like redundant systems with constant 3000 psi on hand
provided by camshaft driven pumps... great money maker for us mechs.... :)

sorry for the rambling....


John Miller, FoMoCoNUT Gibralter.net
96 F-350 Reg Cab XLT, 4x4, 460 w/ A4OD, My Baby "Baloo"
75 F-100 Reg Cab Ranger, 2wd, 360, C6, Daily Driver "Lucy"
and "always" looking ! ! !
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:36:25 -0400
From: "John Miller"
Subject: FTE Pre61 - Fw: auction in Pa. Big block bonanza

Forwarded with permission, Thought someone might get in on this, pick me up
a Lincoln while you are there.. Really

John

- ----------
> From: Chris Slaw
> Attention Big Block Shoppers!!!
> Saw an ad for Lester Smith estate auction in Schwenksville Pa.-- no
minimums,
> no reserves. Saturday 6/13 9:00am. Included in list are:
> '60 Lincoln, '64 Ford, (2) '67 Lincoln Continentals, '68 Dodge, '69
Lincoln
> Mark II, '70 Thunderbird. (28) '73-'94 Lincolns and Cads.
>
> Ad states over 180 automobiles and collector cars will be sold.
> This guy must have had a damn big garage!
>
> Contact Hunyady auctions, (800) 233-6898
>
> -CJS

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:23:07 -0500
From: "Maciazek, John"
Subject: FTE Pre61 - Cover for '53

Anyone know of a place to get a "car cover" type thing made for a '53
F100??


Thanks in Advance

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:33:49 -0700
From: Edward Sedgwick
Subject: FTE Pre61 - Re: Flathead V-8

All of the 1948 to 52 ford flatheads were known as 8BA, the 8 standing
for 1948, the first year the engine was used (in trucks, cars still used
the 59AB) I was told once that 8RT meant replacement truck but am not
sure. There are other heads with different year nos. on them. The ones
with an M are mercury, 8CM, 0CM. If you check specs on these engines the
only variations are compression ratio and cams, so the "other" heads
probably have variations in clearance and compression.

All of the engine parts are the same except that the mercury used a
different cam, crank and pistons. (cam has a higher lift so CM heads
have a bit more clearance also Ford changed the valve setup in mid 1951
(I think, don't have a book handy) so there are two different valve
setups. Springs, valves and retainers are different.

Ford had a major program going for engine rebuilding during the flathead
era, always been a problem for restorers because some of the engines are
a mixture of parts. (mostly 1932-1948 versions)

Does anyone know what year the last flathead V-8 was produced and by
whom?

Ed Sedgwick
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:37:53 EDT
From: JRFiero aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 and other brake fluids


DOT 5 fluid>>
You''ll find an excellent discussion of silicone fluid (DOT 5) and others at
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.muller.net/karting/docs/technical/brfluid.html. Stick with the HD
DOT 3 or DOT 4.
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:34:34 -0400
From: "Don & Teresa Neighbors"
Subject: FTE Pre61 - Silicone Brake Fluid

The only bad thing I have ever heard about silicone brake fluid is that it
has more molecules of oxygen in its chemical makeup, making it somewhat
compressible, making for higher pedal effort when braking. Other than that,
it doesn't seem to have any of the vices of "regular" brake fluid, such as
moisture absorbtion and corrosion. (Grover's brake lines were a portrait of
corrosion after storing brake fluid for 23+ years!) I understand you have
to MAKE SURE you get all the old brake fluid out when you flush the system
and replace it with the silicone fluid.
Oh, and it's as expensive as all getout.

Don Neighbors
'54 F250 Named Grover
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:52:21 EDT
From: RJC988 aol.com
Subject: FTE Pre61 - '58 Parts


From: "Donald R. Schoenheide"
Subject: FTE Pre61 - 1958 parts needed

I am Just starting to restore an 1958 I need a tailgate and tail lights
Can any one tell me where I might find them.
rrcomand tir.com >>

Don,
If you are close to the Memphis area, I have seen 2 57-60 "shoeboxes" and
heard of more in the area. I don't know if it helps, but there it is. Almost
all my catalogs sell tail light lens. John's F-Funhundreds is the only one
carrying all the lighting components. Nobody has Styleside tailgates.

Glenn in TN
Soapy the '57 F-100 (with the heart of a Lincoln)!
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:36:40 -0500
From: Ray Cardogno
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 brake fluid

>>Rich,
>> You advised anyone doing a brake job to replace the old fluid
>with
>>DOT 5 fluid. However, I am replacing the wheel cylinders on my '48
>>F-68 (U.S. F-2), and was talking to a mechanic who said that D.O.T. 5
>>fluid will corrode some types of rubber and brake systems. I was also
>told
>>that DOT 3 and DOT 4 are both natural fluids, but DOT 4 is made to
>handle
>>more heat which is not a problem on drum brakes. Being natural fluids,
>>this grade will absorb water simply by contacting air etc. However, DOT
>5
>>is a synthetic fluid, and so creates the corrosion problem. Is this all
>>correct? If so, can my '48 system support the DOT 5 fluid?
>
>Wouldn't the corrosion come from the water in DOT 3 and 4. I've seen
>several systems that sat for a few years with DOT 3 or 4 and when we
>went to bleed the brakes or work on anything it looked pretty bad and
>parts were starting to corrode. I know I sure don't get any on my paint.
>I've been told by a local brake shop that DOT 5 is better as silicon is
>considered an inert material. They say it won't harm anything.
>Don't most of the commercial dash and upholstery protectants have
>silicon in them?
>The only problem I have heard of is that silicon is slightly more mushy
>then DOT 3 or 4. Does anybody know if this is true?

I did not notice any performance difference except that I still have brakes
after the long winters... I'm sold on the stuff.

Ray C


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:56:33 -0500
From: Ray Cardogno
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - More DOT 5

> It's always been my understanding that DOT5 is the fluid of choice
> for doing restorations and show cars because it doesn't absorb moisture
> like DOT3/4 fluids do, so it doesn't rust out all the iron parts when the
> vehicle sits for awhile. The only catch is that the silicone fluids are
> not compatable with the DOT3/4 stuff, so You need to completely disassemble
> the brake system and clean/dry all the parts and lines to remove *all*
> traces of old fluid. There shouldn't be a compatability problem with the
> stock rubber seals.
> I've also heard that the silicone fluid can be a problem if You have a
> leaky master cylinder/vacuum booster setup that lets some fluid be sucked
> into the intake manifold and burned.
> Someone on another list had this happen and posted a picture of a spark
> plug that was covered with a hard fuzzy deposit. It looked like it had
> a wad of fiberglass fibers on the end of it, short strings of very hard
> material that eats up rings and cylinders and stuff. It pretty well
> ruined his motor.
> Apparently when the silicone fluid burns it turns back into sand...

I think I'll try torching some of that fluid to see what happens :o I'm
glad my trucks have new boosters :)

Ray


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:46:54 -0500
From: Ray Cardogno
Subject: RE: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 brake fluid

>maybe it does "eat" the rubber cups but
>it takes longer than 10 years before they are eaten enough to start
>leaking ;-)

I'd rather replace the rubber parts with updated materials *if* they ever
fail than to count on replacing or honing out cylinders within ten years. I
know this applies more to those of us who don't use our trucks all year
round.


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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:25:22 -0500
From: Ray Cardogno
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - Silicone Brake Fluid

> The only bad thing I have ever heard about silicone brake fluid is
>that it
>has more molecules of oxygen in its chemical makeup, making it somewhat
>compressible, making for higher pedal effort when braking. Other than that,
>it doesn't seem to have any of the vices of "regular" brake fluid, such as
>moisture absorbtion and corrosion. (Grover's brake lines were a portrait of
>corrosion after storing brake fluid for 23+ years!) I understand you have
>to MAKE SURE you get all the old brake fluid out when you flush the system
>and replace it with the silicone fluid.
> Oh, and it's as expensive as all getout.
>
> Don Neighbors
> '54 F250 Named Grover

$75 per gallon, It turns red and alerts you if you mistakenly mix it with
DOT 3 or 4. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I blow out the lines with a
compressor at low pressure and then bleed off slight extra fluid. Have had
no problems.


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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:42:44 -0500
From: Ray Cardogno
Subject: Re: FTE Pre61 - DOT 5 and other brake fluids

>
>DOT 5 fluid>>
> You''ll find an excellent discussion of silicone fluid (DOT 5) and others at
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.muller.net/karting/docs/technical/brfluid.html. Stick with the HD....


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