fordtrucks-digest Wednesday, April 1 1998 Volume 02 : Number 088



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1960 And Older Trucks Digest
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In this issue:

Excessive Oil Use ["Don & Teresa Neighbors" ]
RE: Bed time (floor replacement) ["Goodwrench" ]
RE: Can you read? ["Goodwrench" ]
Re: Re-Vin Numbers - David Stokes [Cdalep ]
first restoration? [PhatStang ]
Re: bolt on hp [Justin McCrite ]
Re: lowered '55? [Justin McCrite ]
4 wheel disk set-up ["Tim Baker" ]
Re: sins of the father [Cathy Greenlaw ]
Re: Excessive Oil Use [Cathy Greenlaw ]
First Restoration? [PhatStang ]
Re: First Restoration? [Josh Hamilton ]
Re: First Restoration? [Thomas Teixeira ]
Your right Earl! [RJC988 ]
cooling flatheads [rmeier connect.net (Roger Meier)]
Re: Need Mid Fifties front shock mounts. [JStoneF100 ]
ADMIN: Pigeon Forge show [Ken Payne ]

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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:03:39 -0500
From: "Don & Teresa Neighbors"
Subject: Excessive Oil Use

Ol' Grover has taken up excessive oil consumption. Since the oil is
dripping at the back of the engine, I naturally assumed that the rear main
seal was shot, and replaced it. I messed up the sise seals on the first
attempt, and had to do it again. I used about a pint of oil driving to work
(25 miles away), but considerably more on the return trip.
The clutch acts like it has gotten oil on it now. It grabs like nobody's
business. I have a couple of theories I thought I'd throw out, and maybe
somebody out there has an idea I haven't thought of: (A) The main bearings
are so far gone that the crank is bouncing around, allowing oil to get past
the seal. I am NOT hearing main bearing noise, though. (B) An oil gallery
plug has given out. (C) That little rubber seal where the oil pickup tube
enters the oil pump (an external pump for ypu non Y-blockers) is not doing
its job. I might note that the nut that holds the seal and pickup tube in
place seemed mighty loose when I started having trouble in the first place.

I could sure use some input!

Don Neighbors
'54 F250 Named Grover

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:31:30 -0600
From: "Goodwrench"
Subject: RE: Bed time (floor replacement)

Steve,
I took the bed off my '41 all by myself with just my cherry picker
engine hoist. I wouldn't advise doing it that way, but even with two
guys it might be handy to have one end held up with an engine hoist.
The hoists are great. I even used mine to take the cab off. Just make
sure that you have a couple good sturdy saw horses set up right next to
where you'll be removing the bed. You could also consider removing the
wood first to make it lighter. Don't bother trying to save the hardware
to mount and assemble the bed. Just use a torch to cut it off and then
replace it. Do have a garden hose handy, because it's hard not to set
fire to some of the bed boards.
I sure wouldn't want to rely on only an oil finish on the bed wood. If
I had to, I'd use tung oil, but urethane would be much better. Gloss is
the most durable. Thin the first coats 1:1 with mineral spirits to get
real good penetration. Then work your way up to no thinner by the last
coats. If you don't want full gloss, you can always use a matte or
semi-gloss for the final coat. Also, if you rub even the gloss with
ScotchBrite after it dries, you can knock the sheen off of it.
Todd Murthum 810-254-2835, Mack Products 816-263-7444, Dan Carpenter,
and Bruce Horkey 507-831-5625, all make kits and have parts for your
bed. You might find it easier to buy the stainless strips already
punched with the square holes, than to try to make it up yourself. You
will also need the box side to bed angles, and these available in
stainless as well. I'm definitely going with all stainless hardware in
my bed. As far as tools go, you might want to have a spot weld cutter on
hand for the project.
Definitely call and get the catalogues before you do this project, they
have a lot of helpful information as well as the stuff for sale.
Finally, if you want a couple decent references to bed removal and
rebuilding process, you could try to get a hold of: Custom & Classic
Trucks 12/95 p. 46, and Truckin' Classic Trucks 12/94 p.20 2/95
p. 60

Goodwrench = Jim Pfrommer
Central Texas
goodwrench easy.com
Check out Goodwrench's CyberRanch:
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.easy.com/goodwrench/



> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Bed time (floor replacement)
>
> How heavy is the bed? Once it's unbolted can 2 people pick it and
> move it, or do I need to buy a 12 pack and invite more friends?
> It looks kind of awkward and "floppy", just 3 sides and a tailgate...
> Any good advise, tips, warnings, etc, on removing/replacing the bed?
>
> What should I do to protect the oak? I'm undecided whether to paint
> the wood with a plastic "Varathane" type coating, or to just use some
> kind of oil on the wood to waterproof it.
> Anyone got some thoughts for me on this one?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:01:42 -0600
From: "Goodwrench"
Subject: RE: Can you read?

Mr. Phat,
I can't comment on your thing, but your postings are coming through.

Goodwrench
goodwrench easy.com
Check out Goodwrench's CyberRanch:
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.easy.com/goodwrench/



> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Can you read?
>
> Can anyone read this message? If so respond. I think my
> thing might be
> messe3d up.
>
> Thanx,
> Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:43:23 EST
From: Cdalep
Subject: Re: Re-Vin Numbers - David Stokes

Im with Rich 54 F100, on my 54 the number is in the same spot . matter of
fact when we put the torino clip on we rewelded the front part of the original
frame back on so now have the original radiator support. bumper brackets and
the VIN #.
Cliff.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:27:21 EST
From: PhatStang
Subject: first restoration?

Hey there all. I'm a 16 yr. old guy and am wanting to do my first
restoration. I do not know what to restore though. I would like a '55 or so
pickup, but i have heard that they can be hard, due to the limited parts.
People have told me to go for a late 60's, but im not really to fond of them,
though they are ok too. I most would like (even though I know this is off the
Truck category) is a '65 Mustang. I am only 16 remember, but would love to
have an old car, so i am on a somewhat constricted budget. If anyone has any
input on their suggestion, or ideas, or what so evr. Please Respond. I'd
appreciate it.

Thanx,
Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:54:15 -0700
From: Justin McCrite
Subject: Re: bolt on hp

Just out of curiosity. What is the difference between the cleaveland and
windsor? They're both 351 cubes, right? So what's the difference. I had to sell
my '58 for financial reasons, but plan on building a 351 for my next truck. I've
always wondered what the difference was between the two.

jc & terry wrote:

> stock late 70's 351W is only rated about 145Hp, give or take a few, but I
> >think its one of the most overlooked and best motors out there. Its got a
> >good oil system, its relatively small and light and because it's a tall
> >block version of the 302, lots of good stuff is out there. Using Summit
> >Racing, a M6250A351 cam with 204 intake and 214 exhaust duration and .448 &
> >.472" lift is $80, a set of lifters, Summit brand, is $34, a roller timing
> >chain and sprockets is $40. A package deal of Edelbrock manifold, 600 cfm
> >holley, gaskets and air cleaner is $335.A set of headers goes for $80, but
> >may be lots more to get a set that fits an early truck. Total : $570, about
> >300HP. Don't pay any attention to T"Chevy"Bird Terry, 351/302 stuff is darn
> >near the same money these days. All this stuff is mild enought that you
> >won't need engine or head work unless the motor is trash now.
> >
> this is good tecnical info and i could't agree more. the windsor is a good
> streetable engine that is many times overlooked because of the hype
> surrounding the cleveland. price is pretty accurate also if you know how to
> set lifters and replace a cam. even if you don't shouldn't be hard to find a
> buddy that does. see this is what i like to get out of people. facts, not
> just ford v. chevy crap. you have a good foundation. build on it. but just
> so you can't say i never told ya, your still gonna be about 100 horses short
> of the "old red dog" and the parts are close to identical. now let's see if
> you can figure out what i did just little different.
>
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1960 and Older --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, removal form on the web |
> | site. |
> +---------- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ ----------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:26:25 -0700
From: Justin McCrite
Subject: Re: lowered '55?

Centerline wheels did a complete build up, with the finished product in the Dec.
96 issue of Custom Classic Trucks, of a 56 with 18" in front and 20" wheels in
back. I don't know if they have an internet site or not. If you can get a hold of
a back issue, check it out. It is a very nicely done truck.

PhatStang wrote:

> Hey, one more question about the '55. First off I know when people
> restore trucks such as these; they tend to either restore them to the state of
> perfect original or a fat tired mass of power. Which I find both to be okay.
> I was just wondering if anyone has seen a '55 or so truck that has been
> lowered and has 17"-20" rims on it? I like the low profile truck look and
> also the low profile tire look, yet i would still put a fast motor, like a
> 460. If anyone has seen such a thing done, or know of a site where you have
> senn this, can you mail me the address or what ever it is (pic, address, etc.)
>
> Thanx,
> Dan
> +-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1960 and Older --------------+
> | Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, removal form on the web |
> | site. |
> +---------- Visit Our Web Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/ ----------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:34:23 +0100
From: "Tim Baker"
Subject: 4 wheel disk set-up

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BD5D83.A5B16FD0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello I was wandering if any of you know if I need to run residual =
pressure valves on a 4 wheel disk setup---I am using a corvette master =
cylinder--I have been told I don't need one and that I need to run 2lb =
in both the front and rear circuits. Your help is appreciated.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BD5D83.A5B16FD0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






http-equiv=3DContent-Type>




Hello I was wandering if any of you =
know if I=20
need to run residual pressure valves on a 4 wheel disk setup---I am =
using a=20
corvette master cylinder--I have been told I don't need one and that I =
need to=20
run 2lb in both the front and rear circuits.  Your help is=20
appreciated.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BD5D83.A5B16FD0--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 19:18:00 -0500
From: Cathy Greenlaw
Subject: Re: sins of the father

Ray Cardogno wrote:

> Besides, who are you gonna believe, me or someone who doesn't know
> >which way
> > to spin an oil pump! ;-) ;-) ;-)
> >
> > Alec
>
> Funny. Very funny. Thanks for the laugh.
>
> Ray C
>
> Boy, I sure wish not paying attention to the drill motor rotation was the
> only stuipid thing I've ever done, there was the time I was reinstalling
> the motor in my '57 Ford (yes car). The motor was on a chain hoist, at
> the proper height to clear the radiatior support, and my plan was to push
> the car under the motor and lower away, however I forget about the 2X4
> block that kept the car from rolling while I got the motor hoisted. Well
> I got behind the trunk and gave it a push, and of course it wouldn't
> move.So I cursed the thing for an oversized hunk of rust, gabbed the
> bumper and put my back into it. The damn thing went up over the 2X4, down
> the other side, and I got to watch thru the back glass, as the
> windshield hit the bellhousing, which pushed the motor away, which then
> swng back thru said vigin windshield and into the car. The only good
> thing about the whole episode is it didn't scrach any paint.

And being that stupid, I still have no plan the pack my oil pump with
Vasoline.

47 Fred

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 19:40:56 -0500
From: Cathy Greenlaw
Subject: Re: Excessive Oil Use

Don & Teresa Neighbors wrote:

> Ol' Grover has taken up excessive oil consumption. Since the oil is
> dripping at the back of the engine, I naturally assumed that the rear main
> seal was shot, and replaced it. I messed up the sise seals on the first
> attempt, and had to do it again. (A) The main bearings are so far gone that the
> crank is bouncing around, . (B) An oil gallery plug has given out. (C) That little
> rubber seal where the oil pickup tube
> enters the oil pump
>
> I could sure use some input!
> Don, it's been a long time since I last had the crank out of a Y block, but I
> think you can probably rule out the pump seal, its on the suction side of the pump
> (don't try to seal it with Vasoline) and would generally leak only when the
> engine's off and suck air otherwise giving erratic oil pressure readings, the
> galley plug is a unlikely, they usually either just seep or blow. I'm betting on
> the rope seal upper being at fault, as you know the upper half is darn hard to
> insert without dropping the crank, but folks say it can be done, also a
> possibility is the mating point of the two seal halves, I've taken to filling this
> area with a gob of Ultra Blue silicone gasket maker, for sure the only way to tell
> is to get in there with some wrenches, all us electronic experts can't help much,
> but I'd look hard at the seal.
> I did have 292 once that had the rear main bearing give up so bad the flywheel
> hit the clutch splash shield, but you just didn't have to ask about that, it was
> obvious.

47 Fred

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:46:52 EST
From: PhatStang
Subject: First Restoration?

Hey there all. I'm a 16 yr. old guy and am wanting to do my first
restoration. I do not know what to restore though. I would like a '55 or so
pickup, but i have heard that they can be hard, due to the limited parts.
People have told me to go for a late 60's, but im not really to fond of them,
though they are ok too. I most would like (even though I know this is off the
Truck category) is a '65 Mustang. I am only 16 remember, but would love to
have an old car, so i am on a somewhat constricted budget. If anyone has any
input on their suggestion, or ideas, or what so evr. Please Respond. I'd
appreciate it.

Thanx,
Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 15:39:41 -0600
From: Josh Hamilton
Subject: Re: First Restoration?

I have a little bit of advice for you PhatStang. When you decide on
what you want and start looking take some one along that really knows
what to look for as far as quality goes. I am only 17 and last year I
bought the biggest headache of my life, because I just looked at it and
bought it. Don't do that. Check everything and learn to haggle. I
have had to replace the engine and the body was in bad shape under the
paint. Look very hard and take some one that knows their stuff. I wish
you the best of luck and I hope that you find what you want.

'59 F-100
Josh

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:22:51 -0500
From: Thomas Teixeira
Subject: Re: First Restoration?

At 8:46 PM -0500 4/1/98, PhatStang wrote:
>Hey there all. I'm a 16 yr. old guy and am wanting to do my first
>restoration. I do not know what to restore though. I would like a '55 or so
>pickup, but i have heard that they can be hard, due to the limited parts.
>People have told me to go for a late 60's, but im not really to fond of them,
>though they are ok too. I most would like (even though I know this is off the
>Truck category) is a '65 Mustang. I am only 16 remember, but would love to
>have an old car, so i am on a somewhat constricted budget. If anyone has any
>input on their suggestion, or ideas, or what so evr. Please Respond. I'd
>appreciate it.
>
>Thanx,
> Dan

There are lots and lots of reproduction Mustang parts available which keeps
the prices down and makes it easy to find parts, but very different from a
mid-50's truck. I'll echo Josh Hamilton's comment about the value of
spending a lot of time looking, but the better shape you THINK the truck or
car is in when you buy it, the more likely you are to get an unpleasant
surprise of some sort. This is okay -- this is how you learn. For example,
Mustang's have a unibody construction and tend to get rusty floor plans,
cowl vents and rear frame rails. Anything can be fixed -- for a price and
some hassle -- but too much hassle may get you too discouraged to finish
the project, particularly if you don't even have the option of throwing
money at a solution. I don't know as much about what to look for in an old
truck since I just got my '35 Ford truck a few months ago, and have already
had one or two surprises.


Tom Teixeira mailto:tjt world.std.com
94 Taurus SHO 5-speed NESHOC/SHO Registry
'66 Mustang convertible (200 cid auto) http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://world.std.com/~tjt
'35 Ford Pickup (flathead V8)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:21:21 EST
From: RJC988
Subject: Your right Earl!

I know I am on the lesser side of this arguement, but what is the thermostat
doing on all water cooled engines anyway? If you take it out of its housing,
the engine will eventually overheat, it might lake longer than most day to day
trips, but it will! The water is not staying in the radiator long enough to
efficiently cool down. Try it!

Earl III, sometimes people have just too much booklearnin'. There probably is
a fine line to hold, but you are right! Of course it would follow that all
engines would need this tolerance. And there are usually 3 different
temperature ranges for any engine!

Glenn in Memphis (last week!)
Soapy the 57 F-100

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:01:49 -0800
From: rmeier connect.net (Roger Meier)
Subject: cooling flatheads

Written by several:
"Sometimes you have to ignore "modern" technology. Remember, From an
engineering standpoint, the bumble bee can't fly. Trouble is, he doesn't
know it so he flys anyway. The same reasoning applies to
cooling a flattop. Get rid of the blinders of the presant. Go outside of
the envelope of modern thinking. Sometimes old ideas do work.
Keep on truckin friends
Earl T Ingram III

I've heard it explained like this: coolant builds a hot "thermal
layer" next to the metal in the radiator. In a high flow situation,
the thermal layer doesn't move as fast as the water not next to the
metal. What ends up happening with too much flow is hot water just
moves rapidly through the radiator but it never makes contact
with the surface of the radiator, hence it doesn't cool as well.
Slower moving coolant doesn't have this problem and cools better."

Folks I don't believe very much of this. To ignore "modern technology" is
foolish. To ascribe something dumb to "engineering standpoint" when
nothing could be further than the truth is foolish also. Engineers not
only understand why bumble bees can fly, a good bioengineer can calculate
how far he can fly on a given tummy full of food. Just because "so and
so" said it doesn't make it so, since I suspect there is nobody in the
bunch (including a car restoration magazine) that understands fluid flow.
Of course there is a thermal layer of coolant near the tube wall in a
radiator. That's what laminar flow is, and it exists in a radiator tube.
But the faster the coolant flows, the more turbulant the flow the less
thermal layer there is and the more heat is transferred to the tube walls
where it can be transferred to the air going through it.
There are at least three valid reasons to limit the flow of coolant through
a radiator. The major one is because as the coolant velocity increases,
the more the coolant spashes as it enters the radiator, and and at some
velocity it will start picking up air bubbles and carrying them through the
cooling system. As soon as the air bubbles hit the water pump they are
turned into a nice froth, which will not transfer heat well at all. Flat
head Fords do not have a nonaerobic (all air is excluded from the coolant)
cooling system, so the splashing can easily occur.
The next thing that can cause overheating, is pumping power. It requires
engine power to run the water pumps. The power required to do this the
product of the pump pressure and the pump volume. When the water flow
increases by removing the thermostats, the pump pressure remains (the
internal pump pressure a function of the pump design and the pump rpm only)
the same so the hp required to turn the pump increases, which means the
engine has to work harder and generates more heat for the coolant to carry
off. Not a problem at low speeds, but at higher rpm's it becomes
significant.
Another thing that can cause a problem is the one everyone has mentioned,
the higher the flow velocity the more likely the lower hose is to collapse
from outside atmospheric pressure, course this will not happen if the hose
has the internal spring like it's supposed to.

Now I hope no body is offended by any of this because it was NOT my
intention to attack anyone personally, and if anyone is insulted I
apologize in advance. But I too get offended when I hear how dumb things
are ascribed to engineers and modern technology. And I just listened to a
pile of this logic on another list and couldn't stand it no more. Now if
someone wishes to dispute this I will happily listen as long as reasonable
arguments are presented instead of arm waving and "these old guys can't be
wrong". Yes old ideas do work but if you don't know why just say so. Now
donning flameproof undies. 8 )
Regards,
Roger Meier

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:13:10 EST
From: JStoneF100
Subject: Re: Need Mid Fifties front shock mounts.

I just finished removing the front suspension from my 59 and the shock mounts
are boxed up for you if you think they'll work E-Mail me as for price????I
havn't got a clue
Get ahold of me and we'll work something out-Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:17:57 -0500
From: Ken Payne
Subject: ADMIN: Pigeon Forge show

It's official, Ford Truck Enthusiasts will have a booth at the
20th Annual F100 Nationals in Pigeon Forge, Tenn! Show dates
are (this is from the promoter himself, there have been
conflicting dates mentioned): May 14-17 (Thursday through
Sunday). We may have the booth space as early as Thursday
morning but it may not get set up until the afternoon (paying
vendors get moved in and setup first). We plan to have the
booth up the entire weekend.

We plan to give out brochures and sell the window stickers
there. I need to get some volunteers to man the booth a couple....


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