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Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:53:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net (fordtrucks-digest)
To: fordtrucks-digest ListService.net
Subject: fordtrucks-digest V1 #1
Reply-To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Sender: owner-fordtrucks-digest ListService.net


fordtrucks-digest Tuesday, September 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 001



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1960 And Older Trucks Digest
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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To unsubscribe, send email to:
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with the word "unsubscribe" in the body of the message. For help, send
email to the same address with the word "help" in the body of the
message.
=======================================================================
In this issue:

Re: 1977 F-150 [pharrell bae.uga.edu (Graphics & Research Fabrication)]
Manifold ID ["deconblu" ]
76 Ammeter [Tom Hogan ]
Re: Need some help! [bbprice ]
RE: 351M Cam Timing [Sleddog ]
RE: bolt patterns on rear [Sleddog ]
Re: bolt patterns on rear ["deconblu" ]
Emissions device info ["Dave Resch"]
RE: bolt patterns on rear [Sleddog ]
re: need help! [Ken Payne ]
Lists are going down for 15-45 minutes for changeover. [Ken Payne
All lists back up. Please read [Ken Payne ]

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 15:18:48 EDT
From: pharrell bae.uga.edu (Graphics & Research Fabrication)
Subject: Re: 1977 F-150

So I can get lower first and second gears to go with the 1:1 third in my
stock 1980 C-6 and this will make my 3:1 rear gears give me more lowend?
I've been wanting to go to lower axle ratio but just couldn't see having to
change two sets of gears (front and rear) in my Bronco. My truck goes fairly
well in first but loses a bunch of power when it hits second. The final 1:1
drive in third is fine cause I can cruise at 65 mph all day. This sounds
like the best of both worlds.

Patrick
pharrell bae.uga.edu

- --- Begin Included Message ---

>>My '77 has a 400 which I had built for performance cause the 351M
>>didn't pull it's weight. It came with a C-6 which I also had beefed
>>up somewhat, but in high gear it sounds like it desperately needs
>>another gear. Does anyone out there know of a 4 speed C-6, or an
>>overdrive C-6, that will bolt in directly without having to change
>>my transfer case (not that I wouldn't)? Appreciate the help.

>Get the wide ratio gear set and put in taller rear gears. The wide
>ratio gives a better low gear with 1:1 third so you can run taller
>rear gears and get better top end but still get off the line. I have
>2.75's in my Pu with 460 and wide ratio from the factory in 78 and it
>works well with stock 29" tires.

>The wide ratio set is sold through SVO as E4OD replacements but works
>in the C-6 as well :-)
- ------------------------------------

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:33:18 -0700
From: "deconblu"
Subject: Manifold ID

I need some help IDing an intake manifold. A friend dropped it off at my
house because it's a Ford and I have Fords. It had some fittings on it I
wanted but It fits nothing of mine. It's a 4V EGR with casting numbers
D9TE-DA on the rear it has BG21. Looking at pictures in my manual it looks
like a 460. It also brought some friends, a chrome oil pan that has some
scrapage on the bottom and a set of exhaust manifolds that don't look to
good! Who wants them, how much will you give me? I'm in Rancho Cucamonga,
California for anyone close. TIA!
I also have a stock '94 Mustang radiator.

P.S. The Mustang I took the headers from was a '94. Sorry Joe my bad!



Deacon Blues
Visit my Homepage at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/
and http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.dragonfire.net/~site/tbirdknights/
or send me a fan or flame at deconblu gte.net not both. Never fan a flame!


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:50:37 -0700
From: Tom Hogan
Subject: 76 Ammeter

I did it!. I finally got my charge indicator to work! It seems that
there is an error in the circuit design from Ford. The meter is of a
shunt type design. The current goes through the meter (no loop on the
back of the meter). Ford probably did not want to have to rout all of
the current through the meter on the dash (good idea, prevents shock
hazard, electrical fires and if meter dies so does the charging circuit)
so they put a large shunt across the leads to the meter. This would
work if the shunt has a little resistance in it. Mine was pure copper
wire and the reason the meter did not work is that there was not enough
resistance in the shunt to deflect some current through the meter.

I got a resistance wire from the parts store designed to go between the
ignition switch and the ignition control module and cut off a length to
give me the resistance I needed. I spliced it into the shunt wire and
now the meter works. It goes to about 3/4 range at start and goes to
about 1/4 range during run. If the engine is off and the headlights are
on it indicates discharge. I got a little more resistance in the shunt
than I wanted so the needle is a little more active than it should be
but that's ok with me. If I get around to it I may reduce the shunt
resistance or I may install a fuse to protect the meter from a current
spike. My meter is at full deflection at about 0.9 Amps through the
meter. I'm going to watch the system closely for a while to make sure
the harness is not getting too hot. It doesn't seem to be.

The funny thing is that if you think about it, every 73 to 79 truck has
a brand new ammeter in it because the way it's hooked up IT HAS NEVER
BEEN USED! OH OH OOOOOOOOOOHH!!!! (Sam Kinnesen yell).

Gary, do you have any access to tech bulletins (or engineers) that might
explain why it was built this way? Fire hazard? Wrong part spec'ed in?
Vendor mistake?
+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:07:06 -0400
From: bbprice
Subject: Re: Need some help!

I'm all for it, who do I make my check out to and where do I send it?

Barry Price
1965 F-100 Step Side
1980 F-150 Extended Cab


deconblu wrote:

> Hi Ken!
> I know everything that's going on with the list can't be cheap!
> With the
> split, a possible domain name the window stickers not to mention the
> hours
> of administration you've been doing! Will you let us help!
> List members! This is me asking. Ken has said and will no doubt
> say
> again this list is free! The only association I have with Ken is the
> same
> one all of us have!
> Sometime ago Ken allowed us to donate (we suggested and we voted)
> no one
> was asked to contribute. Ken posted what was donated but never who did
> or
> didn't! A lot did. It was surprising how a buck here and a buck there
> added
> up. Ken gave full disclosure how the money was spent even though no
> one
> asked. I'm just letting new people know this so there is no mass panic
> that
> there will be a charge. I have one vote like everyone else!
> Ken, what you have done with the Homepage and the list I would say
> our
> money was well spent. I would like to ask the list to second this
> proposal
> and post their support and or thoughts! If 10% of this list donates
> $1.00
> that will pay for the split. If 20% donates $1.00 that will pay for
> the
> split and the domain name. If 90% donates $1.00 I know Ken will do
> with it
> for us!
> It's up to us people! Ken let us vote on everything he has done
> for us.
> Lets vote on how we can say Thank you!
>
> I Jim Strigas propose that we set-up a voluntary donation to the Ford
> Truck
> Club! Is there a second?
>
> Ken, can this be forward to the other list (or if the split has taken
> place,
> lists) for their vote?
>
> Deacon Blues



+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:05:22 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: 351M Cam Timing

i am sorry, but you misunderstand. there is a connection between the cam
and the cam gear, let's call it the cam button. this connection is used
when machining the cam to grind the lobes relative to crank position (which
is relative to cam gear position on a factory cam gear and chain.) the
factory basically ground the cam with the whole lobe pattern moved.
there is a possibilty, i am not sure, that they made the cam gear different
instead, which would mean that replacing the timing chain set with
something like a cloyes double roller chain would then, if installed
straight up, put the cam off of the factory position by the amount they
moved it for emissions purposes.
i am not sure which way they did it. to me it doesn't matter because i
will always put in a new cam-lifters-timing chain on a rebuilt engine.
but, aftermarket cams are straight up when installed with a aftermarket
timing chain with the zero deg. marks lining up. and the cam companies say
to install their cams straight up on factory chains too i think, which
leads me to beleive that the cam has the whole pattern moved relative to
the cam button on the end of the cam that engages the cam gear.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Dave Resch[SMTP:dresch sybase.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 12:48 PM
To: fordtrucks-digest ListService.net
Subject: Re: 351M Cam Timing


>From: Sleddog
>Subject: RE: 351M Cam Timing
>snip
>difference is already ground in. only moving the factory cam makes a
>difference, as ford ground the cams 4 or so degrees off.
Since the cam controls the relative timing of intake and exhaust events
(i.e., valves opening and closing), along with the characteristics of those
events (i.e., duration, lift, overlap, etc.) there is no such thing as
grinding the cam x degrees off. All you have to do is rotate the cam -x
degrees and there is no difference. This procedure is known as "degreeing"
the cam.

The only way you could grind a cam differently would be to change the
relationship between intake and exhaust events (which would drastically
change the engine's operating characteristics), and as far as I know,
that's not how the cam was retarded by the factory. You'd have to retard
intake only or exhaust only, otherwise no retard can be ground in the cam
itself.

>From: DC Beatty
>Subject: RE: 351M Cam Timing
>
>In Pat Ganahl's book Ford Performance, page 84, there is a mention of
> Ford retarding cams: "One of the first things Ford did to meet smog
>restrictions, beginning in '72, was to retard the timing on existing
>camshafts." It has a picture of a multi-index crank (yes crank) sprocket.=
This is how cams are retarded or advanced, by changing the index between
the cam and the crank.

The original timing set I removed from my 351M had only one keyway on each
gear, so you could install them only according to the original factory
spec, which incorporated the cam retard. The Cloyes timing set I replaced
it with had three keyways on the crank gear, with one indexed to 0 degrees
(cam aligned with TDC on the crank), which is the true lobe profile design
of the cam. From there, you could advance or retard the cam by one keyway
either direction (+ or - 6 degrees?, I don't remember now), depending on
what you wanted the engine to do. At any rate, advancing or retarding the
cam does not change the relative positions of the lobes (i.e., the intake
and exhaust events).

As far as using a cam spec for a pre-'71 engine, that should not make any
difference. Using the factory original timing set for the engine might
make a difference, since that is where the cam retard is done. In the case
of an M-block engine, I would definitely rather have the later, post '77
truck cam with higher lift, if I was going to use a factory spec cam.

Dave R. (M-block devotee)
1980 F250 4x4 351M


+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:07:42 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: bolt patterns on rear

the bearings are same size on my two housings in fact in the interest of
time i used the outside race that was in the housing and the inner race and
tapered bearing from the junkyard axle that i picked up. the bolt pattern,
however, was different - about 1/2 smaller in both directions for the 4
bolts going into the housing.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Gary, 78 BBB[SMTP:gpeters3 ford.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 10:44 AM
To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Subject: RE: bolt patterns on rear

> From: Sleddog
> Subject: RE: bolt patterns on rear
> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:16:02 -0400

> the "new" one had one ball bearing on one side, and a taper bearing
> on other side. my old one has tapered bearings but used to be ball
> bearings up until my first major rear rebuild.

Seems like the first one I ever changed had sealed ball bearings and
a retainer similar to the taper bearings but I can't remember for
sure. I don't recall ever changing a Ford without pressed on
bearings but maybe a loooooong time ago I might have.

The parts house lists at least 2 sizes of bearings for the 9", small
and large what ever that means. I always ask for large since I'm
reasonsably sure trucks have large bearings. I have 3 axle housing
between the spare and two trucks and all have the same bearings,
don't know about the flange, never compared them. I think even the
28 spline set out of my track lock housing has the same bearings but
not sure right now.

The swift of foot and slow of wit
have more off road experiences

- -- Gary --
+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:10:55 -0700
From: "deconblu"
Subject: Re: bolt patterns on rear

>the bearings are same size on my two housings in fact in the interest of
>time i used the outside race that was in the housing and the inner race and
>tapered bearing from the junkyard axle that i picked up. the bolt pattern,
>however, was different - about 1/2 smaller in both directions for the 4
>bolts going into the housing.
>
>sleddog


I wonder now if that Lincoln rear disk set-up could be different! Are all
the parts you have from truck rear ends?
I've wanted to ask you something about pulls. What is the strategy when
doing a pull. Starting out slow and increasing throttle as the pull
progresses. Is that for traction or the rate the weight goes up the slide.
Also you mentioned wanting the weight up front where you need it. Is most of
you power coming off the front? Do you want weight to transfer to the rear
or balance. It's been on my mind after you mentioned the weight. I don't
even know if they do tractor pulls in So. Ca. any more. I went to Angel
Stadium when they were there and once in the High Desert. There were some
bad rigs and the power is awesome!




Deacon Blues
Visit my Homepage at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/
and http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.dragonfire.net/~site/tbirdknights/
or send me a fan or flame at deconblu gte.net not both. Never fan a flame!



+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:50:47 -0600
From: "Dave Resch"
Subject: Emissions device info

Yo dudes:

If you have a '70s through '80s truck w/ carburetor and lots-o-emission
goodies on the engine, I have found a web site to recommend for emissions
device troubleshooting:



It's called the National Center for Vehicle Emissions Control and Safety
(NCVECS), basically like an engineering extension service to support the
I/M240 emissions testing technocracy. They don't really get into the
political considerations of e-testing, but they are basically in bed w/ the
e-testing lobby, providing technical support for the e-testing business.

The best thing about this web site is their section of Anecdotal I/M240
Vehicle Repairs. They give a very thorough rundown of repair and testing
procedures for cars (including an 84 E150 w/ 351W engine) that failed
e-tests. Apparently, they have a budget of about $500 per car and lots of
diagnostic and testing equipment, including dynos. The stories are good
general info about the various emissions stuff on carbureted engines and
they help explain the relationship between various emissions and the
pollution control devices.

Even if you hate this emissions stuff on your engine, if you have a
relatively stock engine (not seriously modified) or if you live in an area
w/ fascist e-testing policies, getting this stuff to work properly is your
only hope of getting adequate performance and staying on the right side of
"the Man."

(Still trying to figure out my nagging EGR problems....)

Dave R. (M-block devotee)
1980 F250 4x4 351M


+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:46:49 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: bolt patterns on rear

Both rears are from trucks, the first one is what came on the truck when i
got it - origin unknown. second one is $50 junkyard piece from i was told
an 80's truck. the junkyard piece had the smaller bolt pattern. if you go
to get anything trick like disk brakes - measure your current bolt pattern
i guess. i still don't know the deal with the two different patterns.

truck pulling strategy? generally, get the sled moving first, then give it
all she's got captain! on some tracks maximum throttle doesn't help, and
traction is what is needed to just torque it down the track. sometimes,
just nailing it from the start works - depending on sled, track etc. if
you can get the skidplate to lift off the ground on the start it is easier
to get the momentum up early - and that keeps it moving when the weight
gets up the ramp. some sleds are hard to pull off the line, and require a
softer foot to get it going.

the idea, according to the oldtimers, is wheelspeed. the big tractors run
well over 120mph wheelspeed. but if you watch, they usually start with
little throttle then build it a little then slam it all they have. if i
remember correctly, i calculated my wheelspeed to be about 28 mph. the
truck to beat (900+ hp) runs wheelspeed in the about the same speed. some
guys run only 15-20 and i know of some getting 35+. but aparently
wheelspeed isn't enuogh, because the fastest speed doesn't always win.
everytime i think i got the whole thing fiqured out, i find that there's
even more to it.

actually, the rear does most of the pulling, but since the sled pulls the
front up, adding weight here will keep more wieght on the front. more
weight=more traction. the rear gets it's weight from the sled itself. the
2wd pullers try to balance the weight. the normal way for 4wd pullers is
as far front as possible, though i have seen some guys add weight in the
middle also.

btw, in other countries the pullers do it different. instaed of a
proggressivley harder to pull sled, they pull a constant weight over a
given distance and the quickest time wins! that's what i call a real drag
race!

sleddog

- ----------
From: deconblu[SMTP:deconblu gte.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 6:10 PM
To: fordtrucks ListService.net
Subject: Re: bolt patterns on rear

I wonder now if that Lincoln rear disk set-up could be different! Are all
the parts you have from truck rear ends?
I've wanted to ask you something about pulls. What is the strategy when
doing a pull. Starting out slow and increasing throttle as the pull
progresses. Is that for traction or the rate the weight goes up the slide.
Also you mentioned wanting the weight up front where you need it. Is most
of
you power coming off the front? Do you want weight to transfer to the rear
or balance. It's been on my mind after you mentioned the weight. I don't
even know if they do tractor pulls in So. Ca. any more. I went to Angel
Stadium when they were there and once in the High Desert. There were some
bad rigs and the power is awesome!




Deacon Blues
Visit my Homepage at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home1.gte.net/deconblu/
and http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.dragonfire.net/~site/tbirdknights/
or send me a fan or flame at deconblu gte.net not both. Never fan a
flame!



+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
| Send Unsubscribe requests to fordtrucks-request listservice.net |
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+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
| Send posts to fordtrucks listservice.net, |
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:11:39 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: re: need help!

This is a long email, but it all needs to be said....

I've discussed several things concerning expenses with a few members
via private email over the last week. At this point, now that the
issue has been raised, I'm going to lay all the cards on the table:

Operating expenses:

1. Dragonfire website: paid for until next May, not an issue, most
likely I'll just use it for archives (Jim, I'll
email you about this)
2. List monthly expenses: $4 per list, for a total of $12/month
3. Our new website (for domain hosting): $19/month + $25 setup.
4. Domain registration $100 (for 2 years, then $50 a year thereafter)

Total cost, yearly $497.00
monthly $ 41.42

As to my time, I spend about 1-2 hours a day taking care of the
list. Most of the time I enjoy it, sometimes its a pain in the
#&$#)( (&*!^~! Good example is last weekend when I caught up
with email from 2 weeks of working 80 hours each. I had over
1000 emails I hadn't read yet. The new domain includes auto
responder services for free so that will take care of a lot
of my cores by sending out copies of the FAQ for certain
questions.

Our sponsor/advertiser (Mac's) pays us $25/month on a quarterly
basis. The agreement was for one year. It paid the bills when
the agreement was made, it doesn't now.

In the past, several people donated to keep us going. Donations
from this spring were exhausted in July. So far the deal
with Mac's has been good and it has not influenced our lists.
Mac's was made aware of the issue of no editorial influence.
I never thought this would be a problem but I wanted to let them
know up front. Its a very friendly "gentlemen's agreement."

On the new web site, I've put up a message seeking another advertiser.
You'll see by the rates I'm asking that I won't get rich off this,
just seeking to cover expenses. Anyways, before the site goes
"official" you guys/gals can preview it. It still has some problems.
Let me know if you think the advertising solicitation looks ok. If
there's a strong majority against it, I'll take it down. Also, this
site is under construction and many changes are planned for it.

By now you're all probably screaming "WHAT'S THE ADDRESS!!!???"
...... http://www.ford-trucks.com
Someone else got www.fordtrucks.com before I did and all they want
the address for is to sell it. The chump actually believes someone
will pay $100,000 (yes, 5 zeros) for it! Let me know what you think
of the site.

About window stickers:

Now that there's a domain name for the site, I want to get ideas from
the membership. It needs to be short and simple, my idea is:

Ford Truck Fan?
www.ford-trucks.com

The word "Enthusiast" doesn't fit well on a sticker. This will be
a clear static cling window sticker (similar material to the oil
change reminder stickers). Everyone who donated will get one for
free, I still have a list of donators. First though, I will post
a message selling them for enough to cover the cost, shipping and
an extra buck to help cover list expenses. I will have to send
out "sold" stickers before free ones because I can't afford the
out of pocket expenses to cover the freebies.

As to donations to help cover expenses or as a way of saying
"thanks", let your conscience be your guide. As I've said before,
I will not charge for the list. Something happened behind the
scenes which reinforced my feelings about this.....

About a month and a half ago a large ($5 billion) media corporation
approached me about hosting both the Ford Truck Enthusiasts web
site and email lists. I would retain "ownership" of the mailing
list. They would have advertisers on the page, have me go to truck
shows, find advertisers (they would find them too), I would give
public presentations, etc. Basically, similiar to the site hosting
the Ranger list but on a far bigger scale. This would make our list
and site "big league." I would share a portion of revenue from
this and possibly get stock. My initial reaction was "hell yes!"
My conscience kicked in and I just can't do it. It would be selling
out in a big way and I honestly believe that the list content would
get influenced, even if its subtle. Chuck Fry's Fordnatics list
is a good example of a great list that's great because its not
influenced.

I could possibly make some money from advertisers in the future,
but I don't envision big bucks from it. And I would certainly never
make money from the list itself. I can't, its my "baby!" If the web
site ever did become a positive wage earner I would refuse donations.
Many people have said that this is a thankless job. How wrong they
are!!! I received over 3 dozen emails thanking me in the last week for
taking the time to handle the list split vote and setting up the new
list. I've learned a lot and saved some time and money (not to mention
frustration) thanks to the advice of people on the lists.

If you guys/gals want to donate, I'll set up a PO Box. Its up to the
members and my feelings won't be hurt if you choose not to. Let me
know, privately or via the list what you think of this. Send private
emails to:
kpayne mindspring.com

Later,
Ken



+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1979 and Older --------------+
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:12:29 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: Lists are going down for 15-45 minutes for changeover.

Subject says it all....
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Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:06:19 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: All lists back up. Please read

All the lists are back up. 1980 and newer list members
should not be affected and can post normally.

The 1961-1979 list addresses are:
fordtrucks61-79 ....


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