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perf-list Digest Mon, 27 Nov 2000 Volume: 2000  Issue: 176

In This Issue:
Re: What do I need?
Finally Finished
Finally Finished II
Re: What do I need?
ADMIN: FTE server downtime
Re: What do I need?
Re: What do I need?
Re: What do I need?
Re: What do I need?
ADMIN: Lists going down
ADMIN: Test of new list server

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Beyer" <bbeyer pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: What do I need?
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:32:29 -0800

Well you're going to have a tough time hitting your goal for several
reasons. First, yes you will need to put in a 400 crankshaft but that's not
all. You'll also have to put in 400 pistons and no one I've seen makes
pistons which will raise the compression to 10:1. You might get close
(9.x:1) depending on how much head shaving/deck milling you do along with
some flat top 9:1 pistons. Ohio Piston & Pin makes them. You could also get
your pick of C.R. with any number of the 351C pistons out there but you
would have to have bushings put into the rods to make them fit. Other than
that, yes crank and pistons are the only 2 differences in the motor.

302C heads are Australian versions which fit the M series block and can
effectively raise the C.R. as well as reduce the tendency of the motor to
"ping". They have a closed chamber head design with better quench
properties.

Your choices of intake are basically either the Edelbrock dual plane or the
Weiand dual plane unless you decide to adapt a Cleveland single plane with
the adapters Weiand makes.

I'd have the block measured carefully as opposed to just going straight to
.030. Clevelands and Ms are known for thin castings and if you can get away
with less then it's better.

400 hp is doable, Hot Rod magazine supposedly did close to that with their
build up of a 400 back in Sept of 98. You can look at a copy of the article
at:

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://home.earthlink.net/~tcrocker/400.html

I'm a little skeptical of some of their numbers but it's a pretty basic
build up. You're biggest problem is going to be the $$. A grand ain't
nuthin' to spend especially when you're talking about new crank, pistons,
cam, intake, carb, headers plus all of the machining. I've done everything
myself while turning a 351M into a 400 and I've got $2000 in the parts alone
plus another $750 in machining and it's not in the truck yet.

/// Friends help you move...Real friends help you move bodies \\

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Miller" <Baywatch13 excite.com>
To: <perf-list ford-trucks.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 7:45 AM
Subject: [perf-list] What do I need?


> Alright folks, I 've got a few questions I hope yawl can help me with. I
had
> planned on swapping out the 351M in my Bronco for a 460 or a 429 (I like
> "big" motors!), but all of the motors I have found in my price range have
> been junk. So, after talking to my father, who drives the Bronco as much
or
> more than I do, we have decided to just build-up the 351M.
> The first thing I want to do is make it a 400M. As far as I know I only
have
> to change the crank. Is this the only difference in the two motors?
> Secondly, I want to bore the block .030 over and raise the compression to
> about 10:1. In order to do this with stock heads do I need to get high
dome
> pistons, and if so, what kind do you recommend?
> Someone had mentioned 302 Cleveland heads before. I have never heard of
> these, if I need to get different heads does anyone have any
> recommendations?
> The next thing is the cam. I want a rough idle with a powerband 2,000 and
> 5,000. Any size and manufacturer suggestions?
> Finally, the intake and carb. What will be a good "middle-of-the-road"
> intake. And, what kind of carb and what CFM would be best?
>
> I guess over-all I would like about 400hp and need to know what kind of
> combination would give me that. Another thing I need to keep in mind is
that
> I am not wealthy. I am planning on trying to stay in at about $1,000.
Other
> than the machine work, I'll do everything else myself. This is my first
Ford
> motor rebuild, my dad has built a few, 360's, 390's, and 302's, but all I
> have done is few Chevy motors; 350's, 305's and a 327. I know its a lot of
> questions, but any help would be much appreciated. Thanks, and may all
your
> travels require four wheel drive and all your journeys be made in a blue
> oval. See Ya!




------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:54:29 GMT
Subject: Finally Finished

Yeah, right.  Well this stage is anyway.  This morning I drove my truck to work
with its 76 front axle and 78 steering system.

Yup, no more power assist with control valve, and no more drum brakes on the
front. (they're for sale though if anyone's interested :)

Dad and I spent Sat. and Sun. back at my place putting it all back together,
should take it in for an alignment sometime soon, but our "scientific" way of
measuring the toe lets it go straight down the road without touching the wheel.


I found Parts America had a bunch of the odd brake parts I needed, new bolts
for the caliper retainers and other small hardware for that, as well as an adapter
to get the rear brakes hooked up.

Learned a very important lesson about Craftsman ... ALWAYS check to be sure
the tool you've got is guaranteed forever, my torque wrench broke and they are
saying it only has a 90day warranty (its a year and a half or so) ... I'm going
to go through my files as I think mine's part number is slightly different which
might mean it is before this 90 day crap came about.  Not very happy at any
rate as I had to buy another one (much cheaper one this time that IS guaranteed
for life).

But I did learn a lot about the way all this goes together and its all fresh
in my head now, so if anyone has any questions on how that stuff goes together
I might be able to answer them :)

For those that are interested I started with a basically stock 74 chassis and
running gear (drum brakes and ram style steering)

I went to a 76 axle with 76 disc brakes, brake lines were from a 76, even got
the middle one from raebestoes if anyone needs the part number.  The steering
is all 78/9 setup, though the pressure hose is for a 76 as I have the old style
p/s pump.

The frame was drilled to accept the new box, and all new linkages/ball joints
etc. were put in ...

Look for updates in the next week or so to the web page as well, no pictures
unfortunately, but should have some info and can get plenty of "after" pics
to show how things were done :)

Its great to be driving my truck again though after 2+ months of watching it
sit while I worked on other things.
Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:49:13 GMT
Subject: Finally Finished II

heh, as Tony pointed out I forgot to give a review of how the thing drove after
all that work ... Its so normal I forgot to comment I think :)

Its great, no more wandering, at least not any more than any other truck with
wide tires, and the brakes actually feel pretty good, though I haven't gotten
on them really hard yet as I'd like to bed them in gently in hopes of preserving
the rotors, but the temptation is there to just wail on them and see what happens
before the need to do it arises, but I let one of my friends drive it who hasn't
driven it before and he thought it was really easy to drive now (auto tranny,
p/s, p/b).

2 thumbs up, but haven't totalled the bills up to see what the overall cost
was, but as i found out the front pretty much needed rebuilt anyway (bad joints
nearly everywhere in the old one)...

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

From: "Dave Resch" <Dave.Resch sybase.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:38:12 -0700
Subject: Re: What do I need?

>From: Jeff Miller <Baywatch13 excite.com>
>
>The first thing I want to do is make it a 400M.
>As far as I know I only have to change the
>crank. Is this the only difference in the two
>motors?

Yo Jeff:

To convert your 351M to a 400, you'll need the 400 crankshaft and pistons.

>Secondly, I want to bore the block .030
>over and raise the compression to
>about 10:1. In order to do this with stock
>heads do I need to get high dome
>pistons, and if so, what kind do you
>recommend?

I don't recommend going over 9.5:1 on compression.  You can use 351C pistons in
the 400, and you can get domed 351C pistons.  If you use 351C pistons, you have
to bush the upper end of the M-block connecting rods to fit the slightly smaller
351C wrist pins (about $100 at a machine shop).

>Someone had mentioned 302 Cleveland
>heads before. I have never heard of
>these, if I need to get different heads
>does anyone have any recommendations?

The 302C heads are Australian Cleveland heads.  They have a 58cc combustion
chamber.  With stock-type (i.e., low compression) 400 pistons, the 302C heads
will raise your compression ratio to 10:1.  Flat-top 400 pistons with the 302C
heads will give you about 10.9:1 CR.  You can get 302C heads for about
$300-400/pair, then add another $150-200 to have them checked and prepped.

>The next thing is the cam. I want a rough idle
>with a powerband 2,000 and 5,000. Any size
>and manufacturer suggestions?

You can achieve near your 400 hp objective without what I would call a "rough"
idle.  I would look for something around 210-215 degrees intake and 215-220
degrees exhaust duration, both 0.050" lift, total lift about 0.520", and lobe
separation around 110-112 degrees.

>Finally, the intake and carb. What will be a
>good "middle-of-the-road" intake.

Both Edelbrock and Weiand make decent manifolds for the M-block, in both EGR and
non-EGR configurations.

>And, what kind of carb and what CFM would
>be best?

To calculate the cfm required for an engine, use the formula:

CFM = CID x RPM x VE 3464

where CFM is cubic feet per minute, CID is cubic inch displacement, RPM is
engine speed in revolutions per minute, and VE is volumetric efficiency.

Using the formula and assuming 100% volumetric efficiency, a 400 engine at 5000
rpm produces 577.37 cubic feet per minute of air flow.  A 600-650 cfm carburetor
should be adequate.

>I guess over-all I would like about 400hp
>and need to know what kind of combination
>would give me that. Another thing I need
>to keep in mind is that I am not wealthy. I
>am planning on trying to stay in at about
>$1,000. Other than the machine work,
>I'll do everything else myself.

There is no way you'll get 400 hp for $1K, even at wholesale prices.  A more
realistic budget for your objective is about $3500, assuming you do most of the
assembly yourself.  Machine work alone will cost you $350-$400.  What's left
will barely get you a stock-type rebuild and maybe 200-225 hp if you're careful.

Good luck.

Dave R (M-block devotee)



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:09:21 -0500
From: Ken Payne <kpayne ford-trucks.com>
Subject: ADMIN: FTE server downtime

Sometime in the next 48 hours, Ford Truck Enthusiasts will
complete it's move to its new server.

After the move, the message boards and mailing lists on
the old server will be disabled and DNS records will be
updated to point to the new server.

The new server will be immediately active.  However, DNS
records take time to propagate across the Internet.  Your
hosting company may take 8-72 hours before it points to
the new server.  Until your host's DNS gets the changes,
you will not be able to send email to our lists nor will
you be able to use the message boards.  You will, however,
continue to receive list mail correctly.

Your patience in this matter is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ken Payne
Admin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts






------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:44:14 -0800 (PST)
From: shane san miguel <v8pinto yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What do I need?

--- Jeff Miller <Baywatch13 excite.com> wrote:
> Alright folks, I 've got a few questions I hope yawl can help me
> with. I had
> planned on swapping out the 351M in my Bronco for a 460 or a 429 (I
> like
> "big" motors!), but all of the motors I have found in my price range
> have
> been junk. So, after talking to my father, who drives the Bronco as
> much or
> more than I do, we have decided to just build-up the 351M.
<SNIP>

Well this may sound a bit cryptic...  But if you follow my advice,
you'll find alllll the information you'll ever want about the 400M
engines.

I have unsubscribed from the mailing lists for a while (except this
one) but there is a man named Dave Williams on the Fordnatics list that
can help you out.  He just built up a 400M for a Pantera that you
wouldn't believe.  Go to www.listquest.com and check out the Fordnatics
archives for one of his posts.  His website will be in the message body
and he has a ton of info on just about anything Ford that you may want.
He's always talked about the possibilities of the Midland series
motors and is quite an accomplished machinist.  Check it out, it will
be well worth your time, you can tell him I sent you if you want but
you don't need to.  He's pretty open to questions.

Shane
55 F100 5.0
15.51 87
289 Pinto


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://shopping.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

From: "Bill Beyer" <bbeyer pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: What do I need?
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:55:52 -0800

It's not a 400M dammit! It's a 400...and there's no such thing as a "Midland
series" either!

/// Friends help you move...Real friends help you move bodies \\

----- Original Message -----
From: "shane san miguel" <v8pinto yahoo.com>
To: <perf-list ford-trucks.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 4:44 PM
Subject: [perf-list] Re: What do I need?


>
> Well this may sound a bit cryptic...  But if you follow my advice,
> you'll find alllll the information you'll ever want about the 400M
> engines.
>
> I have unsubscribed from the mailing lists for a while (except this
> one) but there is a man named Dave Williams on the Fordnatics list that
> can help you out.  He just built up a 400M for a Pantera that you
> wouldn't believe.  Go to www.listquest.com and check out the Fordnatics
> archives for one of his posts.  His website will be in the message body
> and he has a ton of info on just about anything Ford that you may want.
>  He's always talked about the possibilities of the Midland series
> motors and is quite an accomplished machinist.  Check it out, it will
> be well worth your time, you can tell him I sent you if you want but
> you don't need to.  He's pretty open to questions.
>




------------------------------

From: "George Davila" <mega55 lv.rmci.net>
Subject: Re: What do I need?
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:34:28 -0800

The Fordnatics archive has been frozen since a change of servers. I'd
suggest you consider joining the list and post your questions. Dave Williams
and other list members have the knowledge and experience to answer in one or
two posts. No digest, traffic seems to be 30/day plus. Mostly self-moderated
posts about Ford Engines and Cars for street, road racing and strip very
high performance.. Lots of Mustang traffic, serious engine and suspension
changes, but all the answers for any Ford engine fangle are within the
membership. Dave Williams's idea of the perfect from the factory SUV is a
1970 SCJ Ranchero with a camper shell.

George

-----Original Message-----
From: perf-list-bounce ford-trucks.com
[mailto:perf-list-bounce ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of shane san miguel
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 4:44 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: [perf-list] Re: What do I need?

--- Jeff Miller <Baywatch13 excite.com> wrote:
> Alright folks, I 've got a few questions I hope yawl can help me
> with. I had
> planned on swapping out the 351M in my Bronco for a 460 or a 429 (I
> like
> "big" motors!), but all of the motors I have found in my price range
> have
> been junk. So, after talking to my father, who drives the Bronco as
> much or
> more than I do, we have decided to just build-up the 351M.
<SNIP>

Well this may sound a bit cryptic...  But if you follow my advice,
you'll find alllll the information you'll ever want about the 400M
engines.

I have unsubscribed from the mailing lists for a while (except this
one) but there is a man named Dave Williams on the Fordnatics list that
can help you out.  He just built up a 400M for a Pantera that you
wouldn't believe.  Go to www.listquest.com and check out the Fordnatics
archives for one of his posts.  His website will be in the message body
and he has a ton of info on just about anything Ford that you may want.
He's always talked about the possibilities of the Midland series
motors and is quite an accomplished machinist.  Check it out, it will
be well worth your time, you can tell him I sent you if you want but
you don't need to.  He's pretty open to questions.

Shane
55 F100 5.0
15.51 87
289 Pinto





------------------------------

From: "Randy Collins" <rcollins micron.net>
Subject: Re: What do I need?
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:09:29 -0700

George,

I lurk (and on rare occasions post) on the  Ford truck 61-79, Ford Truck
Performance, Ford Truck Off Road list and Fordnatics.  I second your
comments on Dave Williams wisdom.  I often skip through posts...but I always
read what Dave has to say.

Randy Collins
Die Hard Ford Lover!

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Davila" <mega55 lv.rmci.net>
Dave Williams's idea of the perfect from the factory SUV is a
> 1970 SCJ Ranchero with a camper shell.
>
> George

>



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:14:14 -0500
From: Ken Payne <kpayne ford-trucks.com>
Subject: ADMIN: Lists going down

FTE Lists are going down immediately for server change-over.

Ken Payne
Admin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:16:11 -0500
From: Ken Payne <kpayne ford-trucks.com>
Subject: ADMIN: Test of new list server


If you're receiving this email your subscription to
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