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perf-list Digest Thu, 14 Sep 2000 Volume: 2000  Issue: 143

In This Issue:
Re: OK Engine Gurus...
Re: Electric Water Pumps
Re: Hydrogen power for anyone
Re: Electric Water Pumps
Re: Electric Water Pumps
Re: Electric Water Pumps
Re: Hydrogen power for anyone
Re: Hydrogen power for anyone
Re: Electric Water Pumps
Re: Electric Water Pumps
Re: Electric Water Pumps
Subscription to forum at http://www.ford-trucks.com/cgi-bi
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Re: Electric Water Pumps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:55:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: shane san miguel <v8pinto yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OK Engine Gurus...

I just did a stock install.  What I did is:

Got motor to TDC on balancer, confirmed by checking
piston height with wooden dowel.  Made sure it was
power cycle by pulling valve cover.
Installed distributor where I wanted it.

PULLED COIL WIRE AND PUT IN WORK BENCH

Made spark tester using coil wire and old spark plug.
Connect a jumper wire (alligator clips or whatever you
have) from ground to outside of spark plug.  Install
other end in Distributor cap

Turned ignition on and rotated distributor back and
forth (very small motions here) and watched for spark.


Turned motor by hand until balancer read 8 degrees
BTDC.

Rotated distributor again and watched for spark.  Lock
distributor down when you get it to where it 'just'
sparks.

Remove coil wire from bench and re-install.

Start her up and verify ignition timing with gun.

Shane
55 F100 5.0
15.51 87
289 Pinto

--- Kevin Kemmerer <kevkem epix.net> wrote:
> Step one:  Take a deep breath.
>
> Steo two:  Smack the guy who took it out without
> marking the rotor
> direction!
>
> Steps three to five:
> Then, find TDC on the number 1 piston where both
> valves are closed (take
> the valve cover off of course.)  You could find that
> using your finger over
> the plug hole too sometimes, instead of pulling a
> valve cover.
>
> Line up the rotor, to about the number one cylinder
> plug wire post on the
> cap.  Now, timing would be very retarded here, so
> make sure you left enough
> room for the assembly to be rotated for proper
> timing.  You can get closer
> to correct timing, using the damper marks if you
> want to.  I would start at
> like 15 or so degrees before TDC.  From there, once
> it is running you
> should be able to time it closer by ear, or right on
> using a light.
>
> This is the way I would so it, if anyone has a
> better way, speak up!
>
> Kevin
>
> ----------
> From: Bill Beyer[SMTP:bbeyer99 home.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 4:34 PM
> To: Performance List
> Subject: [perf-list] OK Engine Gurus...
>
> I'm helping my neighbor swap the engine in his
> pickup. Unfortunately I got
> there a little late and one of his buddies had
> pulled the distributor
> without making any marks on ANYTHING. I know how to
> install a distributor
> but how the !#$% do I figure out where to set the
> thing initially? Anybody?
>
> BTW this is electronic ignition.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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------------------------------

From: "John Webster" <jwebster tnt21.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pumps
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 07:05:36 -0400


I wish I could give a better explanation, but; the best I can come up with is that a mechanical pump is running all the time. The faster you go the faster you pump whereas the electric pump takes out the thermostat and varies the DC supply to the pump varying actual engine coolant temp. Your honkin down the road with a copious amount of air through the rad you don't need much pumping to cool the motor, hence less work more HP using the electric. What is good is in stop and go traffic and off-road when your motor is getting hot and water flow is at its minimum with a mechanical pump, the electric will keep increasing output until the preset temp is reached, because in traffic you don't care is you lose that extra 25HP you only want to see that temp gauge pegged at 160/170/180 or wherever you set it. The last point is that the controller will run the pump for a while when you shut down, cooling the motor evenly instead of leaving hot spots. No I'm not a sales rep, just think its a great idea!

John
'77 F150 4X4 460/C6/4:11's/33's

>I understand but have a question.  I have always
>questioned this.  I don't know what particular law it
>is but one law of physics is that energy cannot be
>created or destroyed, it just changes to something
>else.  So, knowing that.  Let's step through it.

>A mechanical water pump has drag applied to it by
>moving through water.  That drag is lost HP from the
>crankshaft, through the belts.

>The pumping action of the water still has to come from
>somewhere (the physics part).  So we go to an electric
>pump.

>The pumping action still requires the same amount of
>force, it's just coming from the alternator now.  The
>electric pump draws from the battery which is charged
>by the alternator which is connected to the crank.  So
>still a HP loss.

>So which one is better, draws less HP, the generation
>of electricity or mechanical pump losses?

>Always wanted to know that...

"The Ponderer"




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:06:48 -0400
From: Thomas Teixeira <tjt world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen power for anyone

At 10:46 PM 9/13/2000 -0400, JUMPINFORD aol.com wrote:
>I found this website, thought you might be interested.  I was curious, so I
>started digging around and low and behold, the rumor is true.  With a lil
>work, we can all drive around, filling up with tap water!  I had really been
>considering Propane due to the cost of gas.  Well this system uses a lot of
>the same stuff, but also tells you how to make the hydrogen generator.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is. Yes, you could probably convert an
engine to run on hydrogen gas. Yes, you could use electrolysis to separate
water into hydrogen and oxygen. But you will use more energy in the
electrolysis than you get back by burning the hydrogen afterwards.

But if it DID work, you could improve the performance by collecting the
oxygen and inject that into the air stream along with the hydrogen. :-)



Tom Teixeira mailto:tjt world.std.com
1935 Ford Pickup (flathead
V8) http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://world.std.com/~tjt



------------------------------

From: "Jeff AirboatFanatics.com" <Jeff airboatfanatics.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pumps
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:42:53 -0500

What are the flow rates of a mechanical vs an electric? If these are so good
why are they not stock on new cars and trucks. Can they move the water
needed in a towing situation when pressure is high? The numbers given at
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.summitracing.com shows them to be low flowing and low pressure
which does not seem adequate for a heat sensitive V8. Just a thought but if
you are racing or running hard on the streets you would want the extra flow.
For the drag racers that run a quarter then let it cool down this may be
fine but for a street driven auto if you are running hard you are generating
alot of heat that a mechanical can deal with because as heat goes up so does
flow.

I hate to be the skeptic but cooling is very important and I would not want
to be the guinea pig to try it and loose. An engines cooling needs change
every mile you drive and overdoing it with a mechanical is fine with me. If
I lived in a high traffic area the extra cooling at idle would be good but
If I am stopped on the highway it is just to wait for someone livestock to
get out of the way. Also they seem to have a limited functional lifetime
before seals start to wear out which is another cause for concern. Just my
$.02! no fact just opinions and assumptions, correct me if I am wrong.

Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Webster" <jwebster tnt21.com>
To: "perf-list" <perf-list ford-trucks.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 6:05 AM
Subject: [perf-list] Re: Electric Water Pumps


>
> I wish I could give a better explanation, but; the best I can come up with
is that a mechanical pump is running all the time. The faster you go the
faster you pump whereas the electric pump takes out the thermostat and
varies the DC supply to the pump varying actual engine coolant temp. Your
honkin down the road with a copious amount of air through the rad you don't
need much pumping to cool the motor, hence less work more HP using the
electric. What is good is in stop and go traffic and off-road when your
motor is getting hot and water flow is at its minimum with a mechanical
pump, the electric will keep increasing output until the preset temp is
reached, because in traffic you don't care is you lose that extra 25HP you
only want to see that temp gauge pegged at 160/170/180 or wherever you set
it. The last point is that the controller will run the pump for a while when
you shut down, cooling the motor evenly instead of leaving hot spots. No I'm
not a sales rep, just think its!
>  a great idea!
>
>  John
> '77 F150 4X4 460/C6/4:11's/33's
>
> >I understand but have a question.  I have always
> >questioned this.  I don't know what particular law it
> >is but one law of physics is that energy cannot be
> >created or destroyed, it just changes to something
> >else.  So, knowing that.  Let's step through it.
>
> >A mechanical water pump has drag applied to it by
> >moving through water.  That drag is lost HP from the
> >crankshaft, through the belts.
>
> >The pumping action of the water still has to come from
> >somewhere (the physics part).  So we go to an electric
> >pump.
>
> >The pumping action still requires the same amount of
> >force, it's just coming from the alternator now.  The
> >electric pump draws from the battery which is charged
> >by the alternator which is connected to the crank.  So
> >still a HP loss.
>
> >So which one is better, draws less HP, the generation
> >of electricity or mechanical pump losses?
>
> >Always wanted to know that...
>
> "The Ponderer"
>
>
>
> =============================================================
> To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
> Please remove this footer when replying.
>
>


------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:29:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pumps

>What I
>liked is that for me an electric fan was a big amp draw and I'm still not
>convinced it would do as well as my stainless flex fan. The electric water

>pump though only draws 7.5 amps tops and frees up alot more HP.

Okay, ignoring all the worries about overheating and power saving and such,
wouldn't you still need an electric fan with an elec. water pump ?   I mean
you can't exactly use the motor to spin the fan anymore .... not to mention
re-routing belts might become an issue as the wrap may get too much angle on
things like the alternator with its small pulley ... though with an AIR pump
it may not be an issue.


> I wrote to
>the manufacturer in Australia with questions and had a reply the same day.

>You can mail him at dcfans daviescraig.com.au or go to the web site
>www.daviescraig.com.au.
>    Just thought I'd pass this on as food for thought and opinions.


Wow, that's great, you hardly ever hear of customer service like that.  If Wrenchead
would have responded like that then I wouldn't be cancelling my order today.


Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 07:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: shane san miguel <v8pinto yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pumps

> I lived in a high traffic area the extra cooling at
> idle would be good but
> If I am stopped on the highway it is just to wait

I work at Intel and 3,500 people arrive and depart
every day at the exact same time.  Yesterday my Pinto
got up to 235 sitting in traffic.  I would have loved
the electric pump at that point.  (actually I would
have preferred a beer)

> get out of the way. Also they seem to have a limited
> functional lifetime
> before seals start to wear out which is another
> cause for concern. Just my

This is what I have seen.  Every one of the ads I have
seen for them say "for drag racing use only".

> The faster you go the
> faster you pump whereas the electric pump takes out
> the thermostat and
> varies the DC supply to the pump varying actual

I see....  So the pump isn't running at 100% output
100% of the time.  So that's where you can 'conserve'
energy.  I get it now.  There actually is a HP gain
over the mechanical then because the electric pump can
be 'slowed down' which takes less energy.

Got it.

Shane
55 F100 5.0
15.51 87
289 Pinto

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:16:26 -0500
From: Mike Schwall <mschwall fordfan.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen power for anyone

At 08:06 AM 9/14/00 , you wrote:
>At 10:46 PM 9/13/2000 -0400, JUMPINFORD aol.com wrote:
>>I found this website, thought you might be interested.  I was curious, so I
>>started digging around and low and behold, the rumor is true.  With a lil
>>work, we can all drive around, filling up with tap water!  I had really been
>>considering Propane due to the cost of gas.  Well this system uses a lot of
>>the same stuff, but also tells you how to make the hydrogen generator.
>
>If it sounds too good to be true, it is. Yes, you could probably convert
>an engine to run on hydrogen gas. Yes, you could use electrolysis to
>separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. But you will use more energy in
>the electrolysis than you get back by burning the hydrogen afterwards.
>
>But if it DID work, you could improve the performance by collecting the
>oxygen and inject that into the air stream along with the hydrogen. :-)
>
>
>
>Tom Teixeira                            mailto:tjt world.std.com


If yer goin to use the oxygen too, might as well take the tranny out, yank
the crank, rods, and pistons out, seal the bottoms of the cylinders, yank
the exhaust valves out, remove the muffler, aim the tail pipes just right
and turn 'er into a jet engine. ;-)

Mike


------------------------------

From: "O'Connell, Dennis M" <DMO1 pge.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen power for anyone
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:28:36 -0700

All right!!!  More power.

Dennis
55F100

> ----------
> From: Mike Schwall[SMTP:mschwall fordfan.com]
> Reply To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 8:16 AM
> To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: [perf-list] Re: Hydrogen power for anyone
>
>
>
>
> If yer goin to use the oxygen too, might as well take the tranny out, yank
>
> the crank, rods, and pistons out, seal the bottoms of the cylinders, yank
> the exhaust valves out, remove the muffler, aim the tail pipes just right
> and turn 'er into a jet engine. ;-)
>
> Mike
>
> =============================================================
> To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
> Please remove this footer when replying.
>

------------------------------

From: "John Webster" <jwebster tnt21.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pumps
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:08:41 -0400


<What are the flow rates of a mechanical vs an electric? If these are so good
<why are they not stock on new cars and trucks.

You will eventually see these on new cars, as we soon move to the 42volt system on new vehicles almost everything will be tied to a microprocessor to optimize vehicle performance and emissions. Remember that every component on a car is priced closely and what seems a simple changeover in a pump is a large outlay for the design change/ warranty and core cost. Guess who eats that higher cost.

<Can they move the water
<needed in a towing situation when pressure is high?

The flow rates given for the pump I brought up are 80L/min compared to a maximum of up to or over 240L/min for a mechanical. This may seem that the mechanical is better but in fact after a certain flow rate their is no gain in the extra flow just excess power put into turning the pump impeller. You can only dissipate so much heat through the radiator.

<The numbers given at
<http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.summitracing.com shows them to be low flowing and low pressure
<which does not seem adequate for a heat sensitive V8. Just a thought but if
<you are racing or running hard on the streets you would want the extra flow.
<For the drag racers that run a quarter then let it cool down this may be
<fine but for a street driven auto if you are running hard you are generating
<alot of heat that a mechanical can deal with because as heat goes up so does
<flow.

Again you can pump the life out of the coolant but the rad determines just how much heat you can get rid of and this is a function of rad size and airflow. Therefore once you reach an optimum flow for your coolant its the size of your rad and the speed and size of your fan that determine how much heat you can get rid of. The pumps Summit carries are mostly designed for drag racing, just to keep the motor cool to the line and after the run. The pump I'm referring to was designed for everyday driving.

<I hate to be the skeptic but cooling is very important and I would not want
<to be the guinea pig to try it and loose. An engines cooling needs change
<every mile you drive and overdoing it with a mechanical is fine with me. If
<I lived in a high traffic area the extra cooling at idle would be good but
<If I am stopped on the highway it is just to wait for someone livestock to
<get out of the way. Also they seem to have a limited functional lifetime
<before seals start to wear out which is another cause for concern. Just my
<$.02! no fact just opinions and assumptions, correct me if I am wrong.

Again at higher speeds any pump can do the job, its the sitting in traffic or lugging off road ect., that's hell on your cooling system. That's where the electric is giving full load and flow unlike the mechanical which is loafing at this point.


------------------------------

From: "John Webster" <jwebster tnt21.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pumps
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:11:35 -0400

<What are the flow rates of a mechanical vs an electric? If these are so
good
<why are they not stock on new cars and trucks.

You will eventually see these on new cars, as we soon move to the 42volt
system on new vehicles almost everything will be tied to a microprocessor to
optimize vehicle performance and emissions. Remember that every component on
a car is priced closely and what seems a simple changeover in a pump is a
large outlay for the design change/ warranty and core cost. Guess who eats
that higher cost.

<Can they move the water
<needed in a towing situation when pressure is high?

The flow rates given for the pump I brought up are 80L/min compared to a
maximum of up to or over 240L/min for a mechanical. This may seem that the
mechanical is better but in fact after a certain flow rate their is no gain
in the extra flow just excess power put into turning the pump impeller. You
can only dissipate so much heat through the radiator.

<The numbers given at
<http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.summitracing.com shows them to be low flowing and low pressure
<which does not seem adequate for a heat sensitive V8. Just a thought but if
<you are racing or running hard on the streets you would want the extra
flow.
<For the drag racers that run a quarter then let it cool down this may be
<fine but for a street driven auto if you are running hard you are
generating
<alot of heat that a mechanical can deal with because as heat goes up so
does
<flow.

Again you can pump the life out of the coolant but the rad determines just
how much heat you can get rid of and this is a function of rad size and
airflow. Therefore once you reach an optimum flow for your coolant its the
size of your rad and the speed and size of your fan that determine how much
heat you can get rid of. The pumps Summit carries are mostly designed for
drag racing, just to keep the motor cool to the line and after the run. The
pump I'm referring to was designed for everyday driving.

<I hate to be the skeptic but cooling is very important and I would not want
<to be the guinea pig to try it and loose. An engines cooling needs change
<every mile you drive and overdoing it with a mechanical is fine with me. If
<I lived in a high traffic area the extra cooling at idle would be good but
<If I am stopped on the highway it is just to wait for someone livestock to
<get out of the way. Also they seem to have a limited functional lifetime
<before seals start to wear out which is another cause for concern. Just my
<$.02! no fact just opinions and assumptions, correct me if I am wrong.

Again at higher speeds any pump can do the job, its the sitting in traffic
or lugging off road ect., that's hell on your cooling system. That's where
the electric is giving full load and flow unlike the mechanical which is
loafing at this point.



------------------------------

From: "John Webster" <jwebster tnt21.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pumps
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:18:24 -0400

An electric fan is nice in that you again get the high flow at low engine
speeds, but with a good fan, rad and clean cooling system you should be
alright. As far as the belt goes, yes you re-route if your set-up allows,
for me I'm going to pull the impeller off the water pump so the shaft spins
freely thus allowing my use of the same pulley and fan.

<Okay, ignoring all the worries about overheating and power saving and such,
<wouldn't you still need an electric fan with an elec. water pump ?   I mean
<you can't exactly use the motor to spin the fan anymore .... not to mention
<re-routing belts might become an issue as the wrap may get too much angle
on
<things like the alternator with its small pulley ... though with an AIR
pump
<it may not be an issue.

John
'77 F150 4X4 460/C6/4:11's/33's



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:07:27 -0400
From: admin ford-trucks.com
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"RE: 302 to 351 engine swap in a 91 F150"
Posted by hotrodford_88 on 09/14/2000 19:49:03
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID18/129.html#1

"RE: 351W Block w/302 Heads"
Posted by RAILMAN on 09/14/2000 22:47:30
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID18/125.html#3



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:08:22 -0400
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Subject: Subscription to forum at http://www.ford-trucks.com/cgi-bi


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Messages posted in Inline Six
===========================================================
"RE: carbs"
Posted by rlbertrand on 09/13/2000 11:00:12
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/105.html#9

"Exhaust Question"
Posted by trvaughn on 09/13/2000 13:09:19
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/126.html#0

"RE: Thermostat"
Posted by fordsrus on 09/13/2000 15:38:49
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/124.html#3

"RE: A little black smoke, kinda wierd..."
Posted by 82F100SWB on 09/13/2000 16:03:07
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/118.html#5

"RE: Thermostat"
Posted by hotrodford_88 on 09/13/2000 18:56:32
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/124.html#4

"223 Rebuild?"
Posted by jasper on 09/13/2000 23:01:09
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/127.html#0

"RE: Thermostat"
Posted by Paul on 09/14/2000 00:21:41
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/124.html#5

"RE: Exhaust Question"
Posted by Paul on 09/14/2000 00:31:36
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/126.html#1

"RE: Exhaust Question"
Posted by trvaughn on 09/14/2000 12:51:02
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/126.html#2

"RE: Exhaust Question"
Posted by Paul on 09/14/2000 13:20:30
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/126.html#3

"RE: Exhaust Question"
Posted by trvaughn on 09/14/2000 17:00:24
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/126.html#4

"RE: 1986 F150"
Posted by gary_p on 09/14/2000 20:32:54
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID9/125.html#2

Messages posted in 385 Series - 370/385/429/460 big blocks
===========================================================
"RE: Early 460 - Nylon timing gear?"
Posted by Torky on 09/14/2000 00:20:40
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID11/88.html#2

Messages posted in 351M/400
===========================================================
"RE: 351M W/2v Motorcraft Carb."
Posted by mrmartygr on 09/13/2000 23:11:52
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID12/73.html#2

"RE: Oil Consumption"
Posted by Superdave on 09/14/2000 03:41:44
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID12/11.html#11

"RE: 351M W/2v Motorcraft Carb."
Posted by nitro94 on 09/14/2000 23:12:11
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID12/73.html#3

Messages posted in 4.6/5.4L Modular V8
===========================================================
"RE: Need to know about the 4.6 and the 5.4...."
Posted by mtnbiker on 09/14/2000 19:15:06
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID14/11.html#1

Messages posted in 221/260/289/302/351w V8
===========================================================
"302 to 351 engine swap in a 91 F150"
Posted by dstrech on 09/14/2000 16:44:23
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID18/129.html#0

"RE: 302 to 351 engine swap in a 91 F150"
Posted by hotrodford_88 on 09/14/2000 19:49:03
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID18/129.html#1

"RE: 351W Block w/302 Heads"
Posted by RAILMAN on 09/14/2000 22:47:30
http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID18/125.html#3



------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:58:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pumps ....


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