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perf-list Digest Wed, 30 Aug 2000 Volume: 2000  Issue: 134

In This Issue:
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Re: [Re: Ignition options & also pinging]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hogan, Tom" <Tom.Hogan kla-tencor.com>
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:37:19 -0700


>
> The formula SV/CV+1=CR is only good if you have an RV type cam or can
> guarantee that bother valves are never open at the same time.
> My Ch# 350
> was running 12.3CR but with the cam I had, it would run on
> reg unlead. Most
> aftermarket cams will have both valves open to sweep out burnt gasses
> completely and therefore you loose compression but gain efficiency.
> Compression is a good place to start when figuring parts for
> a rebuild but
> you can go much higher than the regular limits with the right
> cam. Cylinder
> pressure is more the "tell tale" measurement that will
> determine output. I
> am rebuilding my Ch# 350 now and am going back down to
> 11.5:1 domed piston
> with a smaller cam(but not much) and I would assume my
> cylinder pressure
> will be about the same. If you have any question the cam
> manufacturer can
> clear up what an estimated CR would be for a particular cam.
>
> Jeff
>
<snip of previous posts>

Jeff,  You are referring to two different specifications.  The SV/CV+1=CR
referrs to static compression.  Static compression is solely determined by
the measurements of the engine in question to determine the swept and
compressed volumes.  You are correct in that it is a starting place and not
a tell all for how the engine will respond.  The compression ratio you are
referring to is the dynamic compression ratio which takes into account the
bleed off that the camshaft overlap will allow.

I have heard of using overlap to reduce an engines tendency to ping.  Here's
a question for you.  With increased overlap will there be more unburned
gasses going through the tailpipe making it more difficult to pass a siffer
test?

Tom H.

------------------------------

From: "Jeff Keahey" <Jeff airboatfanatics.com>
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:06:55 -0500

That would be my assumption but without an O2 sensor there is really not way
to know for sure. I have seen comments that the overlap will actually clean
up emissions but it just does not sound reasonable. I do know that the
overlap is not any help for low end power and makes getting off the line a
bit tedious from idle.

Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hogan, Tom" <Tom.Hogan kla-tencor.com>
To: <perf-list ford-trucks.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 11:37 AM
Subject: [perf-list] Re: Ignition options & also pinging


>
> >
> > The formula SV/CV+1=CR is only good if you have an RV type cam or can
> > guarantee that bother valves are never open at the same time.
> > My Ch# 350
> > was running 12.3CR but with the cam I had, it would run on
> > reg unlead. Most
> > aftermarket cams will have both valves open to sweep out burnt gasses
> > completely and therefore you loose compression but gain efficiency.
> > Compression is a good place to start when figuring parts for
> > a rebuild but
> > you can go much higher than the regular limits with the right
> > cam. Cylinder
> > pressure is more the "tell tale" measurement that will
> > determine output. I
> > am rebuilding my Ch# 350 now and am going back down to
> > 11.5:1 domed piston
> > with a smaller cam(but not much) and I would assume my
> > cylinder pressure
> > will be about the same. If you have any question the cam
> > manufacturer can
> > clear up what an estimated CR would be for a particular cam.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> <snip of previous posts>
>
> Jeff,  You are referring to two different specifications.  The SV/CV+1=CR
> referrs to static compression.  Static compression is solely determined by
> the measurements of the engine in question to determine the swept and
> compressed volumes.  You are correct in that it is a starting place and
not
> a tell all for how the engine will respond.  The compression ratio you are
> referring to is the dynamic compression ratio which takes into account the
> bleed off that the camshaft overlap will allow.
>
> I have heard of using overlap to reduce an engines tendency to ping.
Here's
> a question for you.  With increased overlap will there be more unburned
> gasses going through the tailpipe making it more difficult to pass a
siffer
> test?
>
> Tom H.
> =============================================================
> To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
> Please remove this footer when replying.
>
>


------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:09:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging

>Here's
>a question for you.  With increased overlap will there be more unburned
>gasses going through the tailpipe making it more difficult to pass a siffer

>test?
>

Yes, if you're subjected to them (fortunately I'm not yet).  The fix for this
is to really lean the motor out and get it good and warm before the tests ...
also putting cats in may help out ...

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

From: "Jeff Keahey" <Jeff airboatfanatics.com>
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:22:42 -0500

You must have a race engine that requires more spark than your average build
up. I should have said that the aftermarket ignitions are good for some
engines, Blown, high compression, nitrous, and any engine that may see a
volumetric efficiency of 100 or better. For the average truck, car, and some
mild street engines a stock ignition is fine and will not be bested by much
if any by aftermarket. When you get into multiple spark ignition you are
limiting your full spark potential by breaking it up into 2+ small sparks
where 1 big spark is enough also with the advertising propaganda the
aftermarket coil makers put out selling higher voltages as better you just
need to know that if you have 100,000 volt coil you engine will never see
40,000 volts. Another exception is the magneto ignition which can make real
results for high performance engines but is generally so overpriced there
are cheaper horses elsewhere. Basically once you have a fire you can keep
sparking but it does no good and all you ignition does is start a fire. The
key is more about how far can it throw its spark(but that is another story).

Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hogan, Tom" <Tom.Hogan kla-tencor.com>
To: <perf-list ford-trucks.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 11:37 AM
Subject: [perf-list] Re: Ignition options & also pinging


>
> >
> > The formula SV/CV+1=CR is only good if you have an RV type cam or can
> > guarantee that bother valves are never open at the same time.
> > My Ch# 350
> > was running 12.3CR but with the cam I had, it would run on
> > reg unlead. Most
> > aftermarket cams will have both valves open to sweep out burnt gasses
> > completely and therefore you loose compression but gain efficiency.
> > Compression is a good place to start when figuring parts for
> > a rebuild but
> > you can go much higher than the regular limits with the right
> > cam. Cylinder
> > pressure is more the "tell tale" measurement that will
> > determine output. I
> > am rebuilding my Ch# 350 now and am going back down to
> > 11.5:1 domed piston
> > with a smaller cam(but not much) and I would assume my
> > cylinder pressure
> > will be about the same. If you have any question the cam
> > manufacturer can
> > clear up what an estimated CR would be for a particular cam.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> <snip of previous posts>
>
> Jeff,  You are referring to two different specifications.  The SV/CV+1=CR
> referrs to static compression.  Static compression is solely determined by
> the measurements of the engine in question to determine the swept and
> compressed volumes.  You are correct in that it is a starting place and
not
> a tell all for how the engine will respond.  The compression ratio you are
> referring to is the dynamic compression ratio which takes into account the
> bleed off that the camshaft overlap will allow.
>
> I have heard of using overlap to reduce an engines tendency to ping.
Here's
> a question for you.  With increased overlap will there be more unburned
> gasses going through the tailpipe making it more difficult to pass a
siffer
> test?
>
> Tom H.
> =============================================================
> To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
> Please remove this footer when replying.
>
>


------------------------------

From: FLR150 aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:26:03 EDT
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging

In a message dated 8/30/00 1:19:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Jeff airboatfanatics.com writes:

<< You must have a race engine that requires more spark than your average
build
up. >>

Jeff,
NO, I don't have a specially built race motor. I have a 1994 5.0 roller
cammed STOCK motor. It has a few add ons, but the bottom end of the motor has
never been touched, that is until I threw a rod 2 weeks ago.
I put 1993 Cobra GT40 heads on it, slapped an E303 cam in it. If you want the
total specs on it go to my website listed in my signature.
BUT, the MSD 6AL was one of the first pieces I bought for my motor. It helped
it idle smoother and gave me better gas mileage. You may know about boats,
but when it comes to 5.0L performance in the F150 trucks, ask anyone on this
list, If it can be done or tried, I have done it and let others know about
it.


Later,
Wayne Foy
NLOC #484
94 Flareside SC
#2 Top Truck
Atlanta GA
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://members.aol.com/flr150/index.html
ICQ#58060858

------------------------------

From: "Jeff Keahey" <Jeff airboatfanatics.com>
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 14:34:51 -0500


Well I apologize I did not realize which list I was on when replying. When comparing an aftermarket ignition to a stock Chevy HEI you will be hard pressed to justify the expense.

Ford ignition have always had the least amount of dwell time and when teamed with an underpowered coil you will have problems. But a high powered coil can overcome the short spark duration of the stock ford ignition.

One trick you may look into in the future is to put a Chrysler module on a Ford and see what happens. Again I WAS not attempting to offend you but to help someone else out with a more reasonable priced alternative to aftermarket ignition. My point was basically that you do not have to go out and buy a fancy ignition system to get better performance and people that do "generally" are disappointed. There are much cheaper horses to be found. The job of an ignition system is light the fuel in the cylinder and it is not so hard to do that it should cost much money.(excluding high RPM operation again)

I wonder what would have happened if you added the higher voltage coil before the MSD 6 Series Ignition Controls
if you would have spent the money and as for the plugs if you went a stage warmer you may have eliminated the carbon. Just a thought.

> NO, I don't have a specially built race motor. I have a 1994 5.0 roller
> cammed STOCK motor. It has a few add ons, but the bottom end of the motor has
> never been touched

You can drastically change an engine with heads and a cam including compression, flow, heat range, cooling etc

> BUT, the MSD 6AL was one of the first pieces I bought for my motor. It helped
> it idle smoother and gave me better gas mileage.

According to your webpage the higher flowing GT40 Iron heads and an E303 cam/lifter set came before the ignition!!!!!!!!! Which makes me wonder if the cam and heads created a problem for the older ignition that was fixed by the coil not the ignition. With more air and fuel it would take more to start a sufficient fire.
see for yourself http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://members.aol.com/flr150/mods.html
#3 new heads and cam
#5 MSD ignition and new higher voltage coil at same time

>You may know about boats,
>but when it comes to 5.0L performance in the F150 trucks, ask anyone on this
>list, If it can be done or tried, I have done it and let others know about
>it.


I do know airboats and because they run automotive engines and cooling systems they are very painfully similar to cars just easier to work on, but also I do not represent myself as an authority just a guy offering another view point as most (but not all) of my experience is with Chevy v8 engines.


Jeff


------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 19:54:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging

>Well I apologize I did not realize which list I was on when replying. When comparing
an aftermarket ignition to a stock Chevy HEI you will be hard pressed to justify
the expense.
>

Sounds like someone's gonna have to watch their step with swear words like that
!  It'll be a cold COLD day when I put a Chevy HEI system on any of my Fords...


> I wonder what would have happened if you added the higher voltage coil before
the MSD 6 Series Ignition Controls
> if you would have spent the money and as for the plugs if you went a stage
warmer you may have eliminated the carbon. Just a thought.
>

I'm curious as to what you'd suggest I do then, I've got an FE runnin points
still, also got a Duraspark distributor sitting in the garage, but the wiring
harness (engine side) is kind of toasty, was thinking of getting Ford's high
performance wiring kit for this system and fitting a strongish coil with a Crane
or MSD system ..

>> NO, I don't have a specially built race motor. I have a 1994 5.0 roller

>> cammed STOCK motor. It has a few add ons, but the bottom end of the motor
has
>> never been touched
>
>You can drastically change an engine with heads and a cam including compression,
flow, heat range, cooling etc
>

But his motor isn't that different from a Cobra motor which would've come with
the same components that his truck had on it (within reason obviously the computers
are different)

>I do know airboats and because they run automotive engines and cooling systems
they are very painfully similar to cars just easier to work on, but also I do
not represent myself as an authority just a guy offering another view point
as most (but not all) of my experience is with Chevy v8 engines.
>

What works for one side of the street may not always be the best option for
the other side ... but offering other options is always good to be sure people
are aware of them.

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

From: Eric Sneed <ESneed REIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 14:18:28 -0700

Newsflash: Ch**y's HEI ignition is vastly superior to the Poorly engineered
TFI that ford pushed for 15 years or so. California Courts have called for a
recall of up to 2 million Ford vehicles between the years of the mid 80's to
the mid 90's. Don't misunderstand me I like my Ford very much, but to pledge
blind allegiance to any manuf is ridicules. My opinion has been that I will
buy the best product regardless of who makes it.

My 2 cents

Eric

------------------------------

From: "wish" <wish ford-trucks.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:38:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging



>Newsflash: Ch**y's HEI ignition is vastly superior to the Poorly engineered

>TFI that ford pushed for 15 years or so.

Re-read my post, I said I wouldn't put it on a FORD, if I'm going to all of
the trouble of swapping to an HEI, might as well go MSD or one of the other
aftermarket's, I've worked on J**ps and know what a headache mixing and matching
parts can create even at a factory level.

>California Courts have called for a
>recall of up to 2 million Ford vehicles between the years of the mid 80's to

>the mid 90's.

Don't even start me on the California Courts ... I live in a completely different
world around here so about 90% of what they think they deserve/need makes no
sense to my way of thinking.

> Don't misunderstand me I like my Ford very much, but to pledge
>blind allegiance to any manuf is ridicules. My opinion has been that I will

>buy the best product regardless of who makes it.
>

That's one approach, I'm a big Ford fan, mostly 'cause its what my mom and her
family are used to, and Dad even switched over a bit (a 93 Lightning is his
daily driver now) ... I know Fords, I understand them pretty well, so I'll stick
with what I know.  I'm sure lots of people love a good deal on a 'vette, and
I probably wouldn't turn one down, but I'll always own a Ford I'm sure.

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

------------------------------

From: Eric Sneed <ESneed REIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ignition options & also pinging
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:58:40 -0700

Fair enough wish, As far as the Kalifornia courts are concerned I am just
reporting what was said on the radio, I am willing to bet that we are very
similar in our political opinion of the Socialist state of Kalifornia.

Have a great day

Confederately yours

Eric S

-----Original Message-----
From: wish [SMTP:wish ford-trucks.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 2:39 PM
To: 'perf-list ford-trucks.com'
Subject: [perf-list] Re: Ignition options & also pinging



>Newsflash: Ch**y's HEI ignition is vastly superior to the Poorly
engineered

>TFI that ford pushed for 15 years or so.

Re-read my post, I said I wouldn't put it on a FORD, if I'm going to
all of
the trouble of swapping to an HEI, might as well go MSD or one of
the other
aftermarket's, I've worked on J**ps and know what a headache mixing
and matching
parts can create even at a factory level.

>California Courts have called for a
>recall of up to 2 million Ford vehicles between the years of the
mid 80's to

>the mid 90's.

Don't even start me on the California Courts ... I live in a
completely different
world around here so about 90% of what they think they deserve/need
makes no
sense to my way of thinking.

> Don't misunderstand me I like my Ford very much, but to pledge
>blind allegiance to any manuf is ridicules. My opinion has been
that I will

>buy the best product regardless of who makes it.
>

That's one approach, I'm a big Ford fan, mostly 'cause its what my
mom and her
family are used to, and Dad even switched over a bit (a 93 Lightning
is his
daily driver now) ... I know Fords, I understand them pretty well,
so I'll stick
with what I know.  I'm sure lots of people love a good deal on a
'vette, and
I probably wouldn't turn one down, but I'll always own a Ford I'm
sure.

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4   6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com
=============================================================
To  unsubscribe:   www.ford-trucks.com/mailinglist.html#item3
Please remove this footer when replying.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 00 19:45:46 EDT
From: Tim Turner <ManicMechanicNC netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Ignition options & also pinging]

Eric Sneed <ESneed REIL.COM> wrote:
> Newsflash: Ch**y's HEI ignition is vastly superior to the Poorly engineered
> TFI that ford pushed for 15 years or so.

Having done engine control work for the last 15 years or so I'd have to
strongly disagree.  GM's pick-up coil design that the wires would break from
flexing by the vacuum advance, the ESC they put on the trucks for a few years
that when it went bad would drop the timing 20 Degrees or kill the ignition,
coil blasting through the rotor, and of course module failure.  Don't get me
started on the newer designs...  ;-)  (Distributor behind the water pump??
Thanks GM...)

> California Courts have called for a
> recall of up to 2 million Ford vehicles between the years of the mid 80's
to
> the mid 90's.

I just laughed when I heard that on the news...   I hope CA plans on recalling
all the Distributorless Ignition GM V-6s and quad-4s as well.  They seem just
as failure prone and cost 2-3X as much as the TFI.  If I kept all the ignition
modules I've replaced I'd have a BUNCH of Ford & GM,  a handful of Mopars and
a variety of others. (Including a Land Rover!)  CA certainly ought to look at
Honda for it's well known distributor seizing problem when not well
maintained, or ideally EVERY vehicle ever made with a timing belt since they
can suddenly stop running also.

> Don't misunderstand me I like my Ford very much, but to pledge
> blind allegiance to any manuf is ridicules.

But quite common among Ford & Chevy owners...

> My opinion has been that I will
> buy the best product regardless of who makes it.

Or price, or country of origin, (for replacement parts cost/availability), or
other factors that people may use in their own personal yardstick?  I'll look
in FoMoCo's line-up first; *IF* nothing suits then I might look to other ....


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