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perf-list-digest Sunday, September 12 1999 Volume 02 : Number 233



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

Re: FTE Perf - Feinstein-Gorton amendment (CAFE standards)
FTE Perf - RE: prices
Re: FTE Perf - dentifying Ford 460 and C6
Re: FTE Perf - dentifying Ford 460 and C6
FTE Perf - you are giving me a headache
Re: FTE Perf - Prices
Re: FTE Perf - Prices
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Prices
Re: Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Prices
RE: FTE Perf - you are giving me a headache

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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:38:04 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Feinstein-Gorton amendment (CAFE standards)

Thanks for the heads-up. I emailed my state senators and
representatives. What some people may not realize is that the majority
of this type of legislation is prompted by populous states after larger
shares of the federal highway trust (trust - ha ha) funds. EPA
compliance to DOT vehicle emission legislation is used as one of the
yardsticks when the politicians divide those tax revenues. Anyone who
has followed Diane Feinstein's political path realizes that she probably
doesn't know a Ford Truck from a giraffe. The more rice burners and
Escorts that Califorians drive means more more money for that state's
coffers. And that type of success (?) provides additional political
action committee donation money from highway contractors to start the
next round of legislation to eliminate our freedoms of choice.

George Miller

Paul M Radecki wrote:
>
> It is time for the annual attempt by certain politicians to limit
> the manufacture of trucks. Senators Feinstein (D,CA) and Gorton (R,WA)
> have introduced an amendment to the FY2000 Transportation Appropriations
> bill which would allow the DOT to raise Corporate Average Fuel Economy
> (CAFE) standards for light trucks. CAFE standards are designed to limit
> the number of trucks and SUVs automakers can sell, which in turn causes
> prices to inflate. Ford must make a huge profit on every Expedition they
> sell because they are practically giving away Escorts in order to meet
> their mandated Corporate Average Fuel Economy. This is why you can no
> longer buy an inexpensive new truck.
> If you don't want the Government deciding what kind of vehicle you
> are allowed to drive, you can find your Senators' email addresses here:
> http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.earthlaw.org/Activist/senatadd.htm
>
> If you want some interesting reading, check out the July 2, 1999
> issue of USA Today (pg B1). In an article entitled "Deaths by the
> Gallon", USA Today concluded that CAFE standards have cost 46,000
> American lives since 1975 - lives that would have been saved by larger,
> heavier vehicles. It also debunks several myths concerning truck safety.
> For example, in 1997 there were 12,144 people killed in small cars.
> Only 136 of them died in collisions with "killer" SUVs. Most (56%) died
> in one-car crashes or collisions with other small cars, both cases in
> which large vehicles are safer. You can view the whole Special Report
> online at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://archives.usatoday.com (it'll cost you a buck) or at your
> local library.
>
> lordjanusz juno.com
> Ford truck loving Libertarian
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Get the Internet just the way you want it.
> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 09:47:42 -0500
From: Paul M Radecki
Subject: FTE Perf - RE: prices

Gerald Ash wrote:

>>Or it is that they [GM] get a good product and stick with it.
>> Like the 350, been here forever and will stay.

I see you haven't yet checked out the new GM pickups. The 350 is no
longer available.

lordjanusz juno.com
'94 F150
'73 F100
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:55:11 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - dentifying Ford 460 and C6

Look on the ledge of a cylinder head above the exhaust ports, right next
to where the valve cover rests, and see if there isn't a casting number.
That will give you the year of head manufacture. D4VE would be a '77
head. The block casting number is on the rear of the block under the
right hand cylinder head.

George Miller

Lookn4iron AOL.COM wrote:
>
> I am working on a 1939 Ford C.O.E.. It is a project vehicle purchased
> in its current condition. It has an engine which the seller identified
> as a Lincoln 460. I have examined it closely and can find no embossed
> numbers. The valve covers have a lot of stickers on them but the one I
> understand is most likely to identify its vintage is missing a portion
> that might identify it.
>
> 1. My MOTOR manuals seem to rely on knowing the vehicle from which it
> was removed. Can anyone point me to a reference that will help me
> identify the engine year and type?.
>
> 2. I similarly would like to know year and model of the "C6"
> transmission so I can consult a parts manual to see if a
> "nosepiece" without the yoke is available.
>
> In the event someone on the list has a reference that would ID it, I
> have quoted below the marks, label etc. that are visible.
>
> ENGINE: Among those stickers remaining are one stating "KH 460", the C
> is punched then " 2 3" then below that "23" and the rest is gone. I
> understand this sticker contains the required information to ID it but
> it is incomplete. It also bears sticker stating "Ford Motor Co
> Vehicle Emission Control Info Sticker (Brown lettering on white on the
> left valve cover, " Maint. Sched. B", D7VE9C485-FA Z-311..vehicle
> conforms for 1977 model year new vehicles," The intake manifold has
> what appears to be a small embossed plates which between the Screw head
> reads "6M21". I guess I can infer that it is newer than 1976 from the
> emissions sticker but i would like a more accurate identification if
> possible.
>
> TRANSMISSION: The seller said that the engine C6 combo was removed from
> a International truck. The C6 does not look like others I have seen.
> It It bears the digits "FoMoCo 9Z561027 on the rear end of the casting
> just before the tail piece which does not have a slip joint but has a
> yoke for a universal joint. The larger embossed digits, "51S" appears
> at the top of the housing for the torque converter.
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 13:45:59 -0500
From: "Robert F. Davis"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - dentifying Ford 460 and C6

At 12:00 AM 09/11/1999 EDT, you wrote:
>
>I am working on a 1939 Ford C.O.E.. It is a project vehicle purchased
>in its current condition. It has an engine which the seller identified
>as a Lincoln 460. I have examined it closely and can find no embossed
>numbers. The valve covers have a lot of stickers on them but the one I
>understand is most likely to identify its vintage is missing a portion
>that might identify it.
>
>1. My MOTOR manuals seem to rely on knowing the vehicle from which it
>was removed. Can anyone point me to a reference that will help me
>identify the engine year and type?.
>
>2. I similarly would like to know year and model of the "C6"
>transmission so I can consult a parts manual to see if a
>"nosepiece" without the yoke is available.
>
>In the event someone on the list has a reference that would ID it, I
>have quoted below the marks, label etc. that are visible.
>
>ENGINE: Among those stickers remaining are one stating "KH 460", the C
>is punched then " 2 3" then below that "23" and the rest is gone. I
>understand this sticker contains the required information to ID it but
>it is incomplete. It also bears sticker stating "Ford Motor Co
>Vehicle Emission Control Info Sticker (Brown lettering on white on the
>left valve cover, " Maint. Sched. B", D7VE9C485-FA Z-311..vehicle
>conforms for 1977 model year new vehicles," The intake manifold has
>what appears to be a small embossed plates which between the Screw head
>reads "6M21". I guess I can infer that it is newer than 1976 from the
>emissions sticker but i would like a more accurate identification if
>possible.
>
>TRANSMISSION: The seller said that the engine C6 combo was removed from
>a International truck. The C6 does not look like others I have seen.
>It It bears the digits "FoMoCo 9Z561027 on the rear end of the casting
>just before the tail piece which does not have a slip joint but has a
>yoke for a universal joint. The larger embossed digits, "51S" appears
>at the top of the housing for the torque converter.
>== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
Hey,
"MOST", but not all, truck C6's came w/the bolt on yoke. This was because
of the use of the 2-piece driveshaft w/the slip yoke in the middle the
carrier bearing. A great number of these had cast iron tail housings. They
can ALL be converted to a slip joint yoke the trans by changing the
output shaft w/corresponding tail housing (there are several lengths).
There are no differences in the rear of the C6 case. They are all
basically the same regardless of what engine they came with. In other words
parts from a 390 C6 will fit in a 429/460 C6. Be aware that there are
variations in parts from year to year, as well as different hp versions. As
far as I can find there are probably only 4 different C6 cases.
#1 is the old FE series case (round bell housing pattern)
#2 is the 429/460 series (these have 5 distinctive ribs on top (front to
rear))
#3 is the 351M/400 series (same bolt pattern as #2, but NO ribs on top)
#4 is the 302/351W series in the SB bolt pattern
There were 2 or 3 different cases early on for Lincoln 430's, but these are
rare.
If you need them I can email digital photos to you.
Hope this helps,

"Beater" Bob Davis
'56 F100 Panel w/460/C6
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:58:44 -0700
From: "J.S.H."
Subject: FTE Perf - you are giving me a headache

>or PeterBuilt then we "most of us" would have a 350 or 454 chevy


That is a h*ll of a assumtion that most of the people on a Ford
truck list would rather have a ch*vy engine in thier truck.
I would rather set fire to my Ford than taint it's pedigree
with a bowtie engine.
I really don't care that a Ford cost a little more to fix up.
You get what you pay for.
Remember this list's moto
"Tried,True and FORD Blue"
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:33:22
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Prices

>>
>
>I also have to add that my old slow and weak 460 whomped all over a 454 SS a
>few weeks ago. And Im pushin a LOT more weight.

I agree here .. many racers use chevy engines (they're lighter, cheaper),
but when they go to and from the races, their tow their chevy's with a ford
truck!

I'm amazed how my 22 year old 351M pulls the 5500lbs bronco plus two people
and a sh#tload of stuff up the hills. But it doesn't burn rubber. Just a
big, steady running truck engine. I'd love to have a 460 though :)


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:26:15
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Prices

>people that LIKE their Fords. So we pay more for Ford stuff. Id rather pay
>a lil more for parts, then pay less money more frequently for some chevy
part
>that just keeps going out on me. Again, man I say, I hope you were kidding.

GM may not make their stuff as good as ford, but they're not THAT bad...


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:39:48 -0400
From: Brett ITT 41
Subject: Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Prices

>
>
> Yeah, my cousin use to have a F350 4x4 with a 460 a few years ago. He's a
> pipe fitter, and It was a total work horse of a truck. He could spank a 454
> SS sport truck every time. As a matter of fact I remember reading a Road
> and Track or Motor Trend or something that actually put these trucks up
> against each other and proved the little theory. I imagine GM was quite
> embarrassed. I can only imagine the commercials that Ford will come out
> with to compare the Excursion and that mini van GM calls the Suburban.
> Hehe....

O.K. Just for some info no flaming needed.

The 454 SS ch*vy is purposely de-tuned by GM at the factory. What! you
say. Yes, GM is very protective of their flagship power status with the
corvette. It is corporate policy that no GM vehicle will have a higher
horsepower engine than the current model vette. Think about it, a
factory 454 with only 200 odd horses while a corvette w/a 350 is putting
out close to 300. You must also consider the govt. regs regarding
building a truck. Mileage being the most difficult to overcome. You are
aware of the gas guzzler tax aren't you. Vette buyers don't care about
the extra tax but truck buyers will. Just my 2/100 worth.

Brett ITT 41
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 06:14:11 GMT
From: "Gerald Ash"
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Prices

Thanks Bret,

In 1973 I purchased a new Chevy C20 3/4 ton truck with a big block 400 which
was a 402 cu in engine/turbo 400 transmission, 8 lug wheels, 16 inch tires
and it pulled and outrun every Ford/chevy/dodge car or truck in the county.
If I could find one that is restorable I would do so in a heart beat. There
is nothing like just plain horsepower at your disposal.

Now I have a 390 in my 1978 Ford pickup. It is a great motor and hard
pulling motor but I really doubt that it would do what that Chevy did. I
would like to build a stump pulling, hill climbing, tire burning horsepower
deamon out of this 390 but I haven't had anyone but William guide me in the
direction of FE power.

I don't mind being roasted, in fact I like it. In South Ga. where I am the
Fords work as woods trucks or town trucks as the Chevy trucks body will not
hold up in the woods, but in the fields, the Chevy is two to three to one.
Why, 1. You don't have to purchase land to turn it around. 2.The rear wheels
stay on the ground or have more traction in the sand. 3. The dist. is in
the rear and hitting mud puddles don't drown them out as often.

Now it's my guess that when we get to the gates of Heaven there will be all
breeds of trucks taking us up to the BBQ in the sky. Now to tell the truth
if a Chevy, Dodge, or even Toyota pulls up and St. Peter says load up I will
be in the back. I own the truck, Ford has never sent me a check,what is
good is good and what isn't so good just isn't so good no matter which hood
emblem is stuck on the front.

My old grand daddy told me years ago to keep my mouth shut and I might learn
something. Kinda wish I had done so now but it has been fun!

To all have a good weekend,
GA

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 02:53:01 -0400
From: Greg Carter
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - you are giving me a headache

Unfortunately its a lot more and there is no good reason. Ford's in general
aren't any 'better' than Chev's, and in fact share a lot of the key
driveline components in trucks. For every "My dad's F-250 went 600 000
miles without a rebuild" you can find someone to say the same thing about a
Chev.

Take a browse through the GM performance catalogue, then take a look through
the SVO catalogue. I can't even find a bare cast head for 200 bucks in the
Ford, I can find complete assemblies for 200 in the GM one. Have you priced
out gears or a locker for the Ford 10.25, now compare to it to the cost for
a GM 14 bolt.

It's blind brand loyalty that the marketing dweebs love. Hey why sell a
GT-40 head, based on a 10 year old design, for 200 when they can get 500
just because its Ford. We are not talking state of the are here. Its a
complete money grab, to think otherwise is naive.

I like having fun with the GM Ford rivalry but get ripped off isn't fun.

Greg Carter
1991 F-250 - Dana 60 conversion
1968 Mustang Fastback warmed over 289
1968 Mustang Coupe 289 stock


> ----------
> From: J.S.H.[SMTP:F428 ford-trucks.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 1999 2:58 PM
> To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE Perf - you are giving me a headache
>
> >or PeterBuilt then we "most of us" would have a 350 or 454 chevy
>
>
> That is a h*ll of a assumtion that most of the people on a Ford
> truck list would rather have a ch*vy engine in thier truck.
> I would rather set fire to my Ford than taint it's pedigree
> with a bowtie engine.
> I really don't care that a Ford cost a little more to fix up.....


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