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Subject: perf-list-digest V2 #232
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perf-list-digest Saturday, September 11 1999 Volume 02 : Number 232



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - "Chevy" Transmission Fluid
Re: FTE Perf - "Chevy" Transmission Fluid
FTE Perf - Prices
Re: FTE Perf - Prices
RE: FTE Perf - splitfire spark plugs
FTE Perf - Spark Plugs
RE: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs
RE: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs
RE: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs
Re: FTE Perf - Prices
Re: FTE Perf - Prices
RE: FTE Perf - Prices
RE: FTE Perf - Prices
Re: FTE Perf - Prices
FTE Perf - Blasphemy
Re: FTE Perf - Sad Ford Aftermarket
FTE Perf - dentifying Ford 460 and C6
FTE Perf - Feinstein-Gorton amendment (CAFE standards)

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:12:29 -0400
From: The Neighbors
Subject: FTE Perf - "Chevy" Transmission Fluid

Thankfully, many other manufactureres, even FORD have used Dexron
transmission fluid in their transmissions, so we don't have to feel like
we're ruining a prefectly good Ford by pouring some Dexron into the
engine!!! (There's your Jab, Mr. Ash!! :-) ) Seriously, it's not a bad
way to clean an engine, though I would suggest running the engine for
even longer than 10 miles.
I'm remonded of a time my dad had me get a can of oil out of the back
of our '57 Ford station wagon. He was quite annoyed with me because I
handed him transmission fluid. Since that's all there was, and the car
NEEDED some oil at that point, he muttered "Oh, well, I guess the engine
could use some cleaning anyway." As I remember, it was a few hundred
miles before Dad changed oil next.
- --
Don Neighbors
'54 F250 Named Grover

"Any dropped tool or part will automatically fall into the most
innaccesible part of the vehicle."

grover ford-trucks.com
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:03:12 EDT
From: "Gerald Ash"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - "Chevy" Transmission Fluid

Thanks, I just didn't want him/her/them to use the Ford type II as it has
no or little cleaning power. The Dextron is high detergent and works best
in high pressure such as a lifter. To all have a good weekend.


- ----Original Message Follows----
From: The Neighbors
Reply-To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
To: FTE Performance
Subject: FTE Perf - "Chevy" Transmission Fluid
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:12:29 -0400
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Thankfully, many other manufactureres, even FORD have used Dexron
transmission fluid in their transmissions, so we don't have to feel like
we're ruining a prefectly good Ford by pouring some Dexron into the
engine!!! (There's your Jab, Mr. Ash!! :-) ) Seriously, it's not a bad
way to clean an engine, though I would suggest running the engine for
even longer than 10 miles.
I'm remonded of a time my dad had me get a can of oil out of the back
of our '57 Ford station wagon. He was quite annoyed with me because I
handed him transmission fluid. Since that's all there was, and the car
NEEDED some oil at that point, he muttered "Oh, well, I guess the engine
could use some cleaning anyway." As I remember, it was a few hundred
miles before Dad changed oil next.
- --
Don Neighbors
'54 F250 Named Grover

"Any dropped tool or part will automatically fall into the most
innaccesible part of the vehicle."

grover ford-trucks.com
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:08:54 -0400
From: am14 daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Prices

Gotta put in my $.02 here.

It is a fact that parts for Fords are higher than Chebby. Consider this.
Seldom do you see cam and lifter damage in Fords. I've used the same set of
lifters in FE's in a half dozen different blocks and probably 2ce as many cams.
I'v personally never had but one cam to wear the lobe off, and that was my fault
- - not the cams. You try that in a Chevy. I've seen them wear out cams and
lifters in less than 50,000 miles. A Ford block will most always get
150,000+miles with out being bored.(and I've got 3 with much more than that with
no overbore needed yet) Will a Chebby??? Not that I've seen. Cylinder wear
is a problem with them. Take your Chebby to the local garage and have them
figure an overhaul job. I'll bet you that they figure a new cam and lifters and
possibly overbore and new pistons. Take your old worn out Ford in to the same
garage, and they will figure it without the cam and lifters and without
overboring. Now you talk about production Volume. That will surely increase
GM's as well as aftermarket production volumes. Prices are almost always tied
to volume in some way to amoratize(?) tooling. The more volume, the less the
price - to a point.
I'll pay a bit more and be happy that I won't have to redo it in the next couple
of years.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:58:53 EDT
From: "Gerald Ash"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Prices

Or it is that they get a good product and stick with it.
Like the 350, been here forever and will stay.
289,302,5.0 now the 4.6L whats the deal FORD get some valves and put into
the head and get real, leave the blocks and bolt patterns alone. I have and
continue to keep Fords, in fact I am now purchasing a NEW MERCURY MARQUIS,
so for you FORD folks that want to defend them then tell it like it is.
Slower, more expensive,the engine is to slow and weak too wear out
it's the body and ride we love. If we could order Fords like a Freightligner
or PeterBuilt then we "most of us" would have a 350 or 454 chevy engine, C6
Ford trans, and a 9" Ford rear. And for that die hard 6 in line crowd it
would be the dodge slant 6 so they wouldn't have to stop by every junk yard
in the state hunting manifolds that hadn't cracked.


- ----Original Message Follows----
From: am14 daimlerchrysler.com
Reply-To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
To: Perf-list Ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Prices
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:08:54 -0400
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Gotta put in my $.02 here.

It is a fact that parts for Fords are higher than Chebby. Consider this.
Seldom do you see cam and lifter damage in Fords. I've used the same set of
lifters in FE's in a half dozen different blocks and probably 2ce as many
cams.
I'v personally never had but one cam to wear the lobe off, and that was my
fault
- - not the cams. You try that in a Chevy. I've seen them wear out cams and
lifters in less than 50,000 miles. A Ford block will most always get
150,000+miles with out being bored.(and I've got 3 with much more than that
with
no overbore needed yet) Will a Chebby??? Not that I've seen. Cylinder
wear
is a problem with them. Take your Chebby to the local garage and have them
figure an overhaul job. I'll bet you that they figure a new cam and lifters
and
possibly overbore and new pistons. Take your old worn out Ford in to the
same
garage, and they will figure it without the cam and lifters and without
overboring. Now you talk about production Volume. That will surely
increase
GM's as well as aftermarket production volumes. Prices are almost always
tied
to volume in some way to amoratize(?) tooling. The more volume, the less
the
price - to a point.
I'll pay a bit more and be happy that I won't have to redo it in the next
couple
of years.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:11:56 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - splitfire spark plugs

This is called side gapping. Has been done for years by racers, and in
fact the champion plugs i use in my puller come side gapped from the
factory.

It works well, but normally, they need more attention than other plugs.
they will change gap more, and are more sensitive to heat range i feel.
The electrode sometimes erodes faster too under harsher conditions.

kevin

- ----------
From: David Claflin[SMTP:davida cybertron.com]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 9:57 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - splitfire spark plugs

I used to work at an Autozone part-time, and I always wondered what would
make normally sane people pay $40.00 for a set of spark plugs. After
comparing a splitfire to a motorcraft plug; I noticed the ground electrode
on the splitfires only went halfway over the center electrode. Being a
somewhat clever type I figured I could do the same with a die-grinder and
a
regular set of autolites. I shaved off about half of the ground electrode
so
the center electrode was unshrouded, exposing more of the spark to the
air-fuel mixture. The result was a noticeable improvement in throttle
response and stronger pull in all the gears, plus the mileage went up. The
good part was it didn't cost me $40.00. Now I do this on every plug
change,
even in my bride's Aerostar.
Super Dave

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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:48:00 -0500
From: Mike Morton
Subject: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs

I was just in our local parts store and they have a display of spark plugs
supposedly showing which one are better. They have Autolites, Champions, and
Bosch. The better ones had platinum for both electrodes. The one they say is
the best is a Bosch. They said that the gap on the platinum plugs won't wear
and that has been my experience with Bosch and Autolite platinums. 70,000
miles and the gap hasn't changed more then .002. The thing that caught my
attention was the plug they said was the best one. It was a Bosch and it has
electrodes around the center one. Has anyone ever seen these and would they
work better? Kind of reminds me of back when I was 16 and bought some Spark
Injectors from JC Whitney. Didn't know any better and thought they would
help the car run better. A mechanic at the local FORD dealer said not to use
them as they would burn too hot of a spark and tend to burn pistons and
valves. Any and all opinions are greatly appreciated.
Mike Morton
55 F100/460
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:55:34 -0500
From: Mike Morton
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs

Correction: Should have been the best one had 4 electrodes around the center
one.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Morton [SMTP:mmorto woodward.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 11:48 AM
> To: 'perf-list'
> Subject: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs
>
> I was just in our local parts store and they have a display of spark plugs
> supposedly showing which one are better. They have Autolites, Champions,
> and
> Bosch. The better ones had platinum for both electrodes. The one they say
> is
> the best is a Bosch. They said that the gap on the platinum plugs won't
> wear
> and that has been my experience with Bosch and Autolite platinums. 70,000
> miles and the gap hasn't changed more then .002. The thing that caught my
> attention was the plug they said was the best one. It was a Bosch and it
> has
> electrodes around the center one. Has anyone ever seen these and would
> they
> work better? Kind of reminds me of back when I was 16 and bought some
> Spark
> Injectors from JC Whitney. Didn't know any better and thought they would
> help the car run better. A mechanic at the local FORD dealer said not to
> use
> them as they would burn too hot of a spark and tend to burn pistons and
> valves. Any and all opinions are greatly appreciated.
> Mike Morton
> 55 F100/460
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:09:12 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs

There have been a multitude of spark plug designs. Some are for very
specific engine needs. I have a sample of a plug here, that has a complete
circle of side electrodes around the center one. Very old, and basically
an example that shows that there really isn't much new in spark plug design
over the last 20 years or so, only in marketing.

That does't mean some arn't better than others though. Anyway, i have also
found different engines prefer different plugs sometimes, and i have a
friend that is involved in road racing (all engines/chassis are same for
all teams) where their engines are sealed, and they are not allowed to open
them up. They find power, just by changing the things bolted to the cases.
Like spark plugs. Over 5 hp can be gained through finding the right plug.
Most people don't have the luxury of dyno's and dozens of plug types, etc.

Lately, except in my puller, i treat plugs like gas. i buy what there is
in stock that fits - use em up, and get new ones when i need to. Brand or
style doesn't matter. the bosch plugs in my daily driver now, are no
better then the ones that it came with from the factory. but no worse
either. cost a few more bucks though - especially since i need 10 of them.

ok, i'll stop rambling now.

kevin

- ----------
From: Mike Morton[SMTP:mmorto woodward.com]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 12:48 PM
To: 'perf-list'
Subject: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs

I was just in our local parts store and they have a display of spark plugs
supposedly showing which one are better. They have Autolites, Champions,
and
Bosch. The better ones had platinum for both electrodes. The one they say
is
the best is a Bosch. They said that the gap on the platinum plugs won't
wear
and that has been my experience with Bosch and Autolite platinums. 70,000
miles and the gap hasn't changed more then .002. The thing that caught my
attention was the plug they said was the best one. It was a Bosch and it
has
electrodes around the center one. Has anyone ever seen these and would they
work better? Kind of reminds me of back when I was 16 and bought some Spark
Injectors from JC Whitney. Didn't know any better and thought they would
help the car run better. A mechanic at the local FORD dealer said not to
use
them as they would burn too hot of a spark and tend to burn pistons and
valves. Any and all opinions are greatly appreciated.
Mike Morton
55 F100/460
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:16:37 -0400
From: Brad DeFore
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs

I've used the Bosch Plats (Aerostar, F150 5.8) since they came out and have
been pleased with them. I've seen these plugs advertised (multi grounds
around the center) but as yet haven't been able to get my hands on a set
for either vehicle. Maybe these folks around here will start carrying them
soon, I'm just prepping myself for the prices. The Aerostar has 158,000,
still starts on the 2'nd turn and has great pickup for a 3.0 van. I like
the extended changing interval because it's such a bitch to get to the back
2 plugs, but still change them at 30,000 intervals. Whenever I find a set
for it I'll probably install them just to check it out. They'll go in my
truck first though!


"90" F150 4x4 5.8
Brad DeFore
BDeFore ComputerLogic.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morton [SMTP:mmorto woodward.com]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 12:48 PM
To: 'perf-list'
Subject: FTE Perf - Spark Plugs

I was just in our local parts store and they have a display of spark plugs
supposedly showing which one are better. They have Autolites, Champions,
and
Bosch. The better ones had platinum for both electrodes. The one they say
is
the best is a Bosch. They said that the gap on the platinum plugs won't
wear
and that has been my experience with Bosch and Autolite platinums. 70,000
miles and the gap hasn't changed more then .002. The thing that caught my
attention was the plug they said was the best one. It was a Bosch and it
has
electrodes around the center one. Has anyone ever seen these and would they
work better? Kind of reminds me of back when I was 16 and bought some Spark
Injectors from JC Whitney. Didn't know any better and thought they would
help the car run better. A mechanic at the local FORD dealer said not to
use
them as they would burn too hot of a spark and tend to burn pistons and
valves. Any and all opinions are greatly appreciated.
Mike Morton
55 F100/460
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:31:21 EDT
From: JUMPINFORD AOL.COM
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Prices

In a message dated 9/10/99 5:59:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ga1998 hotmail.com writes:


or PeterBuilt then we "most of us" would have a 350 or 454 chevy engine, C6
Ford trans, and a 9" Ford rear. And for that die hard 6 in line crowd it
would be the dodge slant 6 so they wouldn't have to stop by every junk yard
in the state hunting manifolds that hadn't cracked. >>

Man I hope you were kidding. If I could order fords like you can order
Freightliners, I would order EXACTLY what I have. And as far as the slant
six comment, your just plain nuts. Id never trade down. That goes for the
350 and 454 stuff too. I dont think your on the right list man, this is for
people that LIKE their Fords. So we pay more for Ford stuff. Id rather pay
a lil more for parts, then pay less money more frequently for some chevy part
that just keeps going out on me. Again, man I say, I hope you were kidding.

Darrell Duggan
74 f-350 "Tweety"
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:32:57 EDT
From: JUMPINFORD AOL.COM
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Prices

In a message dated 9/10/99 5:59:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ga1998 hotmail.com writes:

>

I also have to add that my old slow and weak 460 whomped all over a 454 SS a
few weeks ago. And Im pushin a LOT more weight.

Darrell Duggan
74 F-350 "Tweety"
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:18:22 -0500
From: jmann living.com
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Prices

Yeah, my cousin use to have a F350 4x4 with a 460 a few years ago. He's a
pipe fitter, and It was a total work horse of a truck. He could spank a 454
SS sport truck every time. As a matter of fact I remember reading a Road
and Track or Motor Trend or something that actually put these trucks up
against each other and proved the little theory. I imagine GM was quite
embarrassed. I can only imagine the commercials that Ford will come out
with to compare the Excursion and that mini van GM calls the Suburban.
Hehe....

Oh, now my cousin drives a 98 F350 Crew cab 4x4 V10. I swear the kid is
nuts.



- -----Original Message-----
From: JUMPINFORD AOL.COM [mailto:JUMPINFORD AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 7:33 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Prices

In a message dated 9/10/99 5:59:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ga1998 hotmail.com writes:

>

I also have to add that my old slow and weak 460 whomped all over a 454 SS a

few weeks ago. And Im pushin a LOT more weight.

Darrell Duggan
74 F-350 "Tweety"
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:21:16 -0500
From: jmann living.com
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Prices

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, isn't the Ford pickup the #1 selling vehicle in
the world? Or at least it use to be.


- -----Original Message-----
From: JUMPINFORD AOL.COM [mailto:JUMPINFORD AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 7:31 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Prices

In a message dated 9/10/99 5:59:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ga1998 hotmail.com writes:


or PeterBuilt then we "most of us" would have a 350 or 454 chevy engine, C6

Ford trans, and a 9" Ford rear. And for that die hard 6 in line crowd it
would be the dodge slant 6 so they wouldn't have to stop by every junk yard

in the state hunting manifolds that hadn't cracked. >>

Man I hope you were kidding. If I could order fords like you can order
Freightliners, I would order EXACTLY what I have. And as far as the slant
six comment, your just plain nuts. Id never trade down. That goes for the
350 and 454 stuff too. I dont think your on the right list man, this is for

people that LIKE their Fords. So we pay more for Ford stuff. Id rather pay

a lil more for parts, then pay less money more frequently for some chevy
part
that just keeps going out on me. Again, man I say, I hope you were kidding.

Darrell Duggan
74 f-350 "Tweety"
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:22:19 -0700
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Prices

#1 selling light truck...still.

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets"

- -----Original Message-----
From: jmann living.com
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Prices


>Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, isn't the Ford pickup the #1 selling vehicle in
>the world? Or at least it use to be.



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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:24:13 -0700
From: "J.S.H."
Subject: FTE Perf - Blasphemy

>good set of performance heads from Chev

There's two words that don't belong in the same sentence.
good and ch*v
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:11:10 EDT
From: WJeff43 AOL.COM
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Sad Ford Aftermarket

I remember about a year or so ago, Hot Rod magazine budget $5000 or so per
engine, one Chevy and one Ford, to see who could make the most horsepower for
the budget amount. Chevy won. It seems to be a fairly well known that
horsepower is less expensive with Chevy. Fords run forever, though. Bill
Jeffreys
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:00:57 EDT
From: Lookn4iron AOL.COM
Subject: FTE Perf - dentifying Ford 460 and C6

I am working on a 1939 Ford C.O.E.. It is a project vehicle purchased
in its current condition. It has an engine which the seller identified
as a Lincoln 460. I have examined it closely and can find no embossed
numbers. The valve covers have a lot of stickers on them but the one I
understand is most likely to identify its vintage is missing a portion
that might identify it.

1. My MOTOR manuals seem to rely on knowing the vehicle from which it
was removed. Can anyone point me to a reference that will help me
identify the engine year and type?.

2. I similarly would like to know year and model of the "C6"
transmission so I can consult a parts manual to see if a
"nosepiece" without the yoke is available.

In the event someone on the list has a reference that would ID it, I
have quoted below the marks, label etc. that are visible.

ENGINE: Among those stickers remaining are one stating "KH 460", the C
is punched then " 2 3" then below that "23" and the rest is gone. I
understand this sticker contains the required information to ID it but
it is incomplete. It also bears sticker stating "Ford Motor Co
Vehicle Emission Control Info Sticker (Brown lettering on white on the
left valve cover, " Maint. Sched. B", D7VE9C485-FA Z-311..vehicle
conforms for 1977 model year new vehicles," The intake manifold has
what appears to be a small embossed plates which between the Screw head
reads "6M21". I guess I can infer that it is newer than 1976 from the
emissions sticker but i would like a more accurate identification if
possible.

TRANSMISSION: The seller said that the engine C6 combo was removed from
a International truck. The C6 does not look like others I have seen.
It It bears the digits "FoMoCo 9Z561027 on the rear end of the casting
just before the tail piece which does not have a slip joint but has a
yoke for a universal joint. The larger embossed digits, "51S" appears
at the top of the housing for the torque converter.
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:06:11 -0500
From: Paul M Radecki
Subject: FTE Perf - Feinstein-Gorton amendment (CAFE standards)

It is time for the annual attempt by certain politicians to limit
the manufacture of trucks. Senators Feinstein (D,CA) and Gorton (R,WA)
have introduced an amendment to the FY2000 Transportation Appropriations
bill which would allow the DOT to raise Corporate Average Fuel Economy
(CAFE) standards for light trucks. CAFE standards are designed to limit
the number of trucks and SUVs automakers can sell, which in turn causes
prices to inflate. Ford must make a huge profit on every Expedition they
sell because they are practically giving away Escorts in order to meet
their mandated Corporate Average Fuel Economy. This is why you can no
longer buy an inexpensive new truck.
If you don't want the Government deciding what kind of vehicle you
are allowed to drive, you can find your Senators' email addresses here:
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.earthlaw.org/Activist/senatadd.htm

If you want some interesting reading, check out the July 2, 1999
issue of USA Today (pg B1). In an article entitled "Deaths by the
Gallon", USA Today concluded that CAFE standards have cost 46,000
American lives since 1975 - lives that would have been saved by larger,
heavier vehicles. It also debunks several myths concerning truck safety.....


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