perf-list-digest Friday, April 9 1999 Volume 02 : Number 081



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - Re: FTE 61-79 - Help ARG!
FTE Perf - T C Bolts
Re: FTE Perf - T C Bolts
Re: FTE Perf - T C Bolts
Re: FTE Perf - T C Bolts
FTE Perf - V10 Ford?
RE: FTE Perf - engine swap
Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?
Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?
FTE Perf - Lifters, again
FTE Perf - Are these books worth buying?
Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?
Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?
FTE Perf - Push Rod vs. OHC
Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?
Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?

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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 08:45:46 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: FTE 61-79 - Help ARG!

>Can you go in through the starter hole with a 1/4 inch drive swivel and
>extension? Have someone hold the crank bolt.

Nope, on an FE the starter is way to far out to one side for that to
happen/work ...



larger box end wrench
and slip it over the end of the smaller one. Turn it so that the flat part
of the wrench goes against the smaller wrench and use it as an extension to
apply more leverage.

Done something similar a 9/16" wrench is the same size on the open end (or
close enough) as a 1/2" drive ratchet ... tried that, but the stupid
exhaust was still in the way!


Finally got everything apart last night though. A guy I work with was nice
enough to leave the computers alone for a night and help me with my truck.
I also bought a breaker bar (15") before heading home. When he got there
he would turn the crank a little at a time til the bolt just cleared the
plate on the driver's side, that would leave just enough space to put the
pull wrench on one side of the exhaust pipe, and next to the oil pan, and I
could get a bit of a turn to loosen the bolt, then use an open end/boxed
end to take it the rest of the way out. Once we got started it only took
10 minutes to get all 4 bolts out.

Then with a little stretching I took out all the tranny/engine bolts and
went to take the motor mount nuts off ... THERE WAS NOTHING HOLDING THE
MOUNTS TO THE STANCIONS!!! Neither of the mounts was hooked directly to
the frame. Anyway a little pullin and tuggin and it popped off its rest
and swung free!

Will update the rebuild page sometime in the next few days, in the mean
time I should go do some of the stuff that pays for the truck.

Laters, and thanks to everyone.

Bill (wish)
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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:30:23 -0400
From: am14 daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: FTE Perf - T C Bolts

William Hart writes: >>The problem seems to be that the oil pan is too close to
the fly wheel so I can't get a ratchet up there. Anyone have any tricks to
this ? I have a 9/16 open end/boxed end I can get on it, but I can't get
enough leverage to pull it loose.

Hey "Bill" !!! Welcome to the real world of mechanics. Yep !! A
socket/ratchet combo is worthless here. I use a really long box end Hex hand
wrench to break them loose while holding a 15/16" on the center bolt on the
front end of crankshaft, and a shorter (regular length) hand wrench to remove
them the rest of the way if I can't spin them off with fingers.

Hang in there. They're tough, but you can do it. Just don't "round off"any of
them.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:18:48 -0500
From: "C. K. Hartline"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - T C Bolts

Maybe I'm speaking from the 'Fool's Chair at the King's table" here but;
when I was growing up with my father who's a retired mechanic now. I seem
to remember every single toolbox we had, had a special piece of pipe. It
was either iron or steel so it wouldn't bend unless Hercules had ahold of it

outer space>. Dad would take a good sized hammer to one end and flatten it
out just a bit so that it would easily fit over the end of a wrench or a
rachet if necessary and kept it from slipping too much
was still available>. Voila!! Instant cheater bar. I still find myself
today when I work on my own vehicles anymore
otherwise> pulling out that little piece of pipe to help get something
loose. Might I remind you though that re-installing those bolts should
they require a 'torgue' of a certain poundage should warrant a torquing tool
of some sort. I would never recommend using a cheater 'pipe/bar' for
torquing a bolt down you could check. But this 'pipe' method has never
failed me yet.

Just my 2 cents again today,

C.K.

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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 13:09:21 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - T C Bolts

>Maybe I'm speaking from the 'Fool's Chair at the King's table" here but;
>when I was growing up with my father who's a retired mechanic now. I seem
>to remember every single toolbox we had, had a special piece of pipe.

Yeah I know the pipe method, but that only works if there's room for a
pipe! I didn't have room for a wrench hardly, much less a pipe too ... but
I did get it with the breaker bar, found a spot I hadn't tried yet that
worked, just to the driver's side of the oil pan.

I couldn't believe I had that much trouble, usually on the truck I have all
kinds of room to work on things, but the exhaust guy just ran it totally
wrong in my opinion and put it right where it would be in the way. With no
cats or anything, it was all one welded piece from the back of the manfiold
(already loose), down the side of the block, across between the oil pan and
bell housing, then back parallel to the pass. side exhaust .. til you get
behind the xfer case, at which point it would go back across to the
driver's side, and then straight back through the muffler to the rear of
the truck ... nice routing scheme huh ? He also thought that he couldn't
fit it next to the front drive shaft, which was the whole point of going
that goofy route, but the bend he has to go under the motor ... its banged
almost shut because the drive shaft banged it when the suspension bottomed
once ...
I'll have to get a picture of it next time I'm under there ...



Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/mustang.html
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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:06:17 -0400
From: Brad Smith
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - T C Bolts

At 12:30 PM 4/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>William Hart writes: >>The problem seems to be that the oil pan is too
close to
>the fly wheel so I can't get a ratchet up there. Anyone have any tricks to
>this ? I have a 9/16 open end/boxed end I can get on it, but I can't get
>enough leverage to pull it loose.
>
>Hey "Bill" !!! Welcome to the real world of mechanics. Yep !! A
>socket/ratchet combo is worthless here. I use a really long box end Hex hand
>wrench to break them loose while holding a 15/16" on the center bolt on the
>front end of crankshaft, and a shorter (regular length) hand wrench to remove
>them the rest of the way if I can't spin them off with fingers.
>
>Hang in there. They're tough, but you can do it. Just don't "round
off"any of
>them.
>
>Azie
>Ardmore, Al.
>
>
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>
>
I'm sure you probably know the two wrench trick, huh? If you can get the
box end of the wrench on the bolt, then you can take another wrench and
slip the box end over the forked end and then you have a 2X long wrench or
better.... You probably already knew this trick, but if you didn't, it
comes in handy quite often!

Good Luck! - BRAD

The two best times to go fishing are when it is raining, and when it is
not...
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 16:12:11 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?

I know there has been some talk about someone (I'm horrid with names, sorry
guys) putting a Modular V10 into a streetrod ... well I was jut at
www.streetrods.com, they committed the ultimate sin there, they put a DODGE
motor in a Cobra replica ... on the plus side its an 8L V10 ... they have
pics of building it and everything ... they might be a good contact for
info on this ... heck they may do it for you if you ask them nice (aka
writing a BIG check)


Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/mustang.html
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:46:17 -0500
From: "Baldwin, Dave (CPCP Design)"
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - engine swap

OK, I know this is a little late for a reply, but I found this old message
which is a request for ideas on how to pep up an Explorer.

Since I received this message, I have found out that BBK makes a bolt-on
supercharger system for the 4.0L V6! I think that this would be the perfect
way to pep up that bad boy. Comes with a module to program the computer
correctly, and uses the same supercharger unit as Ford used in production of
the T-bird 3.8 SC. I haven't seen one personally, but it sounds good.
Probably a lot more expensive than getting a 5.0 and dropping it in there,
but if you figure the cost of your time, it's probably a better deal.

The website is at:
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.bbk1.com/supercharging_x.html

Good luck, and if you go this route, be sure to let us know about it.

Oh. Almost forgot the disclaimer: no, it's not spam--I don't work for BBK,
know anyone who does, and haven't used their products. Might be garbage for
all I know. Just thought it looked interesting--and that someone out there
in list-land might want to know.

Dave Baldwin
Dallas, TX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Metalsped AOL.COM [mailto:Metalsped AOL.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 3:49 PM
> To: offroad-list ford-trucks.com; perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE Perf - engine swap
>
>
> A buddy of mine was wondering if he could swap a 5.0 into a
> 91 FORD EXPLORER
> XLT 4X4? The stock engine just doesn't cut it. He has a 4"
> suspension lift,
> Flowmaster exh, 32x11.50x15 Mickey Thompson tires on alum
> rims, Bushwacker
> Extenda flares,and Hella driving lights. If he could get a
> hi-po 5 liter into
> this thing, he would be very happy. Any ideas are welcome.
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info
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>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 18:45:19 -0400
From: Garr&Pam
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?

William S Hart wrote:
>
> I know there has been some talk about someone (I'm horrid with names, sorry
> guys) putting a Modular V10 into a streetrod ... well I was jut at
> www.streetrods.com, they committed the ultimate sin there, they put a DODGE
> motor in a Cobra replica ... on the plus side its an 8L V10 ... they have
> pics of building it and everything ... they might be a good contact for
> info on this ... heck they may do it for you if you ask them nice (aka
> writing a BIG check)
>
If there was motor form another manufacturer that would be ideal to use
it would be that torque monster form the Mopar guys, I hate to say this
but Fords new OHC designs just aren't making the grade against the
competition...
Ford 6.8L V-10 275 hp
Dodge 8.0L V-10 300-450hp(depends wether its a truck or a viper) the key
is the torque from just off idle is over 400 ft lbs and never falls
below this number! I bet it will be a long time before we see a OHC
motor do that!
Chris
94 Lightning #381
NLOC #238
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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 17:07:58 -0700
From: "Rob Bryan"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?

Chris,

Strangely enough, EVERY SINGLE TEST I've seen that has placed the Dodge 8.0
against the Ford 6.8 has concluded that the Ford is faster, both loaded and
unloaded. EVERY ONE! And that is with 1200cc less displacement and a "lower
power rating".

And when it comes to Dodge's V8 gas engines, turn out the lights! Check
these chassis dyno figures out from truck trend:

Chevy 5.3L, OHV, 3.73
r/min hp ft/lb
3000 123 214
3500 145 217
4000 169 220
4500 182 212
5000 178 188

MFR rating 270 5000, 315 4000

Dodge 5.9, OHV, 3.92
r/min hp ft/lb
3000 143 249
3500 171 257
4000 190 250
4500 194 228
5000 176 187

MFR rating 245 4000, 335 3200

Ford 5.4, SOHC, 3.55
r/min hp ft/lb
3000 159 280
3500 184 277
4000 207 269
4500 206 240
5000 167 176

MFR rating 260 4500, 345 2300

Strange. OHC is putting MORE _torque_ to the ground...at a LOWER r/min, with
TALLER gears than either of the pushrod engines.

Isn't it about time you realize that OHC is not that bad? Also, FWIW, the
5.4 is the ONLY _truck_ engine ever named to the Wards 10 best engines list.
Not the pushrod Mopar nor any pushrod GM Vortec. Their words were (and this
is from memory, but you can read the article on their website) "overhead-cam
truck motors work".

Rob

> If there was motor form another manufacturer that would be ideal to use
> it would be that torque monster form the Mopar guys, I hate to say this
> but Fords new OHC designs just aren't making the grade against the
> competition...
> Ford 6.8L V-10 275 hp
> Dodge 8.0L V-10 300-450hp(depends wether its a truck or a viper) the key
> is the torque from just off idle is over 400 ft lbs and never falls
> below this number! I bet it will be a long time before we see a OHC
> motor do that!
> Chris
> 94 Lightning #381
> NLOC #238
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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 18:39:42 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: FTE Perf - Lifters, again

Having been through the first round of converting early 429/460
non-adjustable rocker arms to adjustble with allen head lock nuts, I'm
hooked on the benefits of accurate lifter preload. As sleddog said,
hydralic lifters do cover up bad cams. They also cover up good ones
using non-adjustable rocker arms.

Out of curiosity, I replaced two of the rocker arm stock lock nuts that
took 1.5 turns to seat on the stud shoulder and measured the lifter
preload. .057. The other at one turn was .040. Ford spec is .020 to
.060. As mentioned in a prior post, I noticed a big operating difference
using the lockers with achieving what would be equal preload on all
lifters.

My question is, how much preload would be ideal? I've looked at info
stating .010 - .030 (solid lifter clearances) and wondered if somebody
who's gone through this might have some suggestions.

TIA

George Miller
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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:38:11 -0500
From: "Brett L. Habben"
Subject: FTE Perf - Are these books worth buying?

Folks,
Classic Motorbooks has some books on sale I am thinking of buying. Have
any of you seen these books and can tell me if they are worth buying?
Here are the titles:
American Automobile Paint Code Interchange Manual 1945-1995, 160 pgs.
Rod Powell's Flame Paint Techniques, 128 pgs.
Barris Kustom Techniques of the 50's: Flames, Scallops, Paneling, and
Striping, 128 pgs.
Thanks,
Brett
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:52:49 -0500
From: "C. K. Hartline"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?

Well since this one is about me, I suppose I should clear it up.

I have a 1941 Ford Deluxe Tudor Sedan. I want to put a Triton V-10 under
the hood with either 4 wheel drive or All-Wheel drive. What my problem
centers on is whether to buy a truck frame and 'adjust' it to the car's
body, or build a frame and then add the drive train
especially for the car and the engine>...still not really positive how the
cheapest and best way to accomplish this is, but I'm working on it. The
main thing is that the car needs to be self contained. I have a rare muscle
disease and I can't be getting out in bad weather to lock in hubs on the
front end. So I want either the Full time 4 wheel or a push button on the
dash. Like I said, it's just gonna take time.

On the side, my 83 Chevy van just bit the dust...they put a new carb on it,
and swore up and down it just idled rough, though I kept telling them there
was a vacumn leak. They kept adjusting the transmission 'vacumn advance?'
and now suddenly, they find the vacumn leak and the transmission won't
upshift anymore...it might also be pointed out that the transmission fluid
now has stuff suspended in it, despite changing it twice including the
converter. It's stuff like this that puts the ol' 41 on hold just a tad bit
longer. And though as a mechanic's son, I don't like to point fingers, I
really felt like the mechanic's on this one didn't know their hiney from a
hole in the ground. If I could still work on 'em, I'd have found the leak
myself and maybe saved myself the aggravation of a transmission rebuild.
Then again, it may have just been time for it anyway. Gut says no though.


The basis for using a Triton V-10 is because, well...it gripes me when all
these fellas take these pretty Fords and shove cheap Chevy stuff under them.
I've been told over and over and over, there's just more chevy stuff out
there and it's cheaper. I want my old Ford to be all Ford. Otherwise how
come Ford isn't buying V-10's from Dodge and V-8's from Chevy to put in
their vehicles from the factory? I think in the long run, it'll be more
appreciated by folks who view the car that I kept it all Ford. Ultimately
I'd like to paint the car white and put black/chrome-lipped rims on it with
Ford moons, and call it a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing...the 41 has those two
lower grills that kinda give the front end that 'nose' look....

C.K.
Saint Louis, Missouri
cakid stlmo.com
ca-kid swbell.net


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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:08:03 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?

What about F250 4x4 with a 460? The '41 is near to my heart. A coupe was
my first hot rod. A 3/8 x 3/8 flathead that could and did tear up
transmissions within a closed driveline. No matter what
engine/frame/driveline you decide on, that'll be a nice ride.

George Miller

"C. K. Hartline" wrote:
>
> Well since this one is about me, I suppose I should clear it up.
>
> I have a 1941 Ford Deluxe Tudor Sedan. I want to put a Triton V-10 under
> the hood with either 4 wheel drive or All-Wheel drive. What my problem
> centers on is whether to buy a truck frame and 'adjust' it to the car's
> body, or build a frame and then add the drive train
> especially for the car and the engine>...still not really positive how the
> cheapest and best way to accomplish this is, but I'm working on it. The
> main thing is that the car needs to be self contained. I have a rare muscle
> disease and I can't be getting out in bad weather to lock in hubs on the
> front end. So I want either the Full time 4 wheel or a push button on the
> dash. Like I said, it's just gonna take time.
>
> On the side, my 83 Chevy van just bit the dust...they put a new carb on it,
> and swore up and down it just idled rough, though I kept telling them there
> was a vacumn leak. They kept adjusting the transmission 'vacumn advance?'
> and now suddenly, they find the vacumn leak and the transmission won't
> upshift anymore...it might also be pointed out that the transmission fluid
> now has stuff suspended in it, despite changing it twice including the
> converter. It's stuff like this that puts the ol' 41 on hold just a tad bit
> longer. And though as a mechanic's son, I don't like to point fingers, I
> really felt like the mechanic's on this one didn't know their hiney from a
> hole in the ground. If I could still work on 'em, I'd have found the leak
> myself and maybe saved myself the aggravation of a transmission rebuild.
> Then again, it may have just been time for it anyway. Gut says no though.
>
> The basis for using a Triton V-10 is because, well...it gripes me when all
> these fellas take these pretty Fords and shove cheap Chevy stuff under them.
> I've been told over and over and over, there's just more chevy stuff out
> there and it's cheaper. I want my old Ford to be all Ford. Otherwise how
> come Ford isn't buying V-10's from Dodge and V-8's from Chevy to put in
> their vehicles from the factory? I think in the long run, it'll be more
> appreciated by folks who view the car that I kept it all Ford. Ultimately
> I'd like to paint the car white and put black/chrome-lipped rims on it with
> Ford moons, and call it a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing...the 41 has those two
> lower grills that kinda give the front end that 'nose' look....
>
> C.K.
> Saint Louis, Missouri
> cakid stlmo.com
> ca-kid swbell.net
>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 22:21:49 -0400
From: Brad Smith
Subject: FTE Perf - Push Rod vs. OHC

What basis do the guys who say the OHC motors do not produce the torque of
a push rod motor stand on? Granted, I am sure that we are all more
familiar with push rod motors, and maybe even a little resistant to these
modular OHC engines, but what makes some of you guys feel so strongly about
the push rod motors? I don't see how you can technically explain your
reasoning... You get torque from the stroke, and if the cams are doing
their job of getting the valves open, and more effeciently at that, how can
you say the motors aren't capable of producing the torque? I understand
what the numbers indicate, but I say to hell with numbers, that's what this
list is about anyway isn't it? Pushing those numbers and making them what
we want them to be, or at least what is possible... Overall, I feel the OHC
motors are as capable, if not more so than the push rod motors of making
the power.. Any discussion is welcome. Maybe I am overlooking some things,
and I would really like to hear others opinions (with backing)...

Brad
78 F150 4X4 429


The two best times to go fishing are when it is raining, and when it is
not...
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:54:43 -0500
From: "C. K. Hartline"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?

George,
Yeah originally I was planning on putting a 460 in it and if I can't get
the triton v-10 worked out, will go back to as plan 'b'. But I think a v-10
in a classy old car like this will be so gorgeous and talk about an exhaust
melody...I think the real jaw dropper will be when they see all 4 tires
pullin' the old Ford... 41 was the year my Dad was born, and his
first rod was a 40 Chevy coupe...which he sorta kinda wanted me to locate,
but I saw this old gal and fell in love with her lines...I think when she's
done, the old man will really get soft on her just as much as if she was his
own.

C.K.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 21:45:20 -0700
From: William Street
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - V10 Ford?

Garr&Pam wrote:

> William S Hart wrote:
> >
> > I know there has been some talk about someone (I'm horrid with names, sorry
> > [snipped]
> If there was motor form another manufacturer that would be ideal to use....


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