perf-list-digest Saturday, May 15 1999 Volume 02 : Number 116



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

Re: FTE Perf - RE: H-pipe or no H-pipe
RE: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling
FTE Perf - FEar This FE
Re: FTE Perf - pvc
Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling
Re: FTE Perf - pvc
FTE Perf - Camshaft for 390 4bbl
Re: FTE Perf - Camshaft for 390 4bbl
Re: FTE Perf - Camshaft for 390 4bbl
Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling
Re: FTE Perf - pvc
Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling
Re: FTE Perf - Camshaft for 390 4bbl
Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling
FTE Perf - what's the small hole in 5.0L thermostat for
Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling
Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling
FTE Perf - PCV / Smoking

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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:19:07 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - RE: H-pipe or no H-pipe

>Actually if you study the cylinder numbering and the firing order it's
>pretty much the same between all the makes.

This is pretty much a function of the way the crank is laid out. Anyone
ever notice there are only 2 firing orders for a 4cyl ? 1342 and 1243 ...
the 6 has a couple more, and the 8 a couple more. Then when you factor in
the balancing (for a V design at least) there's only a couple of choices
that work very well. All because its a 4 stroke cycle.



>I like the Ford sound best, Mopar second and the others OK.
>
Ditto, though the GM V6 can sound pretty mean, I've never actually seen
them do much with that mean sound.




Just my 2cents

wish

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:31:30 -0700
From: "O'Connell, Dennis M"
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling

George,

Is it possible that at the higher RPM with the high flow water pump your
just pushing coolant through the radiator faster than it can cool? What's
it do at lower speeds under load with air, etc....? I've got a very similar
setup with my 429 and the only heating problem I had is when I had hairline
crack at the base of the radiator that was causing me to lose pressure.
Wouldn't happen at first or at low speeds, but after extended idle or load,
went up and wouldn't come down. Went on for months until the crack got big
enough to show some seepage. In the meantime, I went with flowkooler, water
wetter, six blade after market fan, shroud. My overheating occurred at any
time. And wasn't fixed until I redid the radiator.

As a side note, I have since replaced the flow kooler with an edlebrock pump
and it is even better.

I'd run mine up to see what happens, but to get to 2800 I would have to be
running about 80 or 85 MPH. Hard to do in this part of California unless
your a basketball or baseball star.

Dennis
55F100


> ----------
> From: George Miller[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
> Reply To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 6:17 PM
> To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling
>
> Normal surface street driving, under 2500rpm, shows 180-182 degrees on a
> mechanical gauge. No A/C running. At an extended 10 miles plus 2800rpm
> running session, 190-195. Newer 4-core, new cap/180 thermostat, six
> blade stock fan, oil cooler, 50/50 collant/water and hi-volume water
> pump. Mallory 9000 mechanical advance set for 24 degrees with 10 degrees
> at the crank. Headers.
>
> The plugs, Autolite 35s, are a consistent brown color with no trace of
> white. I went 4% richer on the Edelbrock 750 with no running temp change
> and very little plug color change.
>
> Am I still running too lean? Do I need to go to a hotter plug? Any
> suggestions would be appreciated before I go through the time and cost
> of having the distributor recurved, half a dozen sets of plug changes,
> rejetting the carb and consuming large quantities of my favorite
> beverage while staring at the engine.
>
> TIA
>
> George Miller
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>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:06:47 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: FTE Perf - FEar This FE

Well I told you guys I'd let you know when I got the pics all up on the
page. They're up there, not as many as I remember taking, but they should
give you an idea how things are going and looking ...

Last night I worked for a couple and a half hours and got a lot of stuff
done. The top of the motor is all buttoned up now, just brackets and
sensors left mostly, oh yeah and a fuel pump, I suppose I'll need that too
... :) Anyway things are going great on it, and with a lot of luck and a
little time, I hope to have the thing back on the road by next Thurs.
We'll see if things can possibly go that well.

But off to make a phone call to get the rest of the parts lined up.


Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:08:37 -0700
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - pvc

How would the oil in the top end be getting past the valve stem seals into
the comb. chamber? If the oil were getting sucked into the intake wouldn't
both banks of cyls. be smoking? I'm not familiar with the pcv routing on an
FE but maybe with a dual plane that's possible. It almost sounds like
busted rings but all on one bank? Sorry, more questions than answers but
that's a really weird problem. I think a wet/dry comp. test is in order.

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets"

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sleddog
To: 'perf-list ford-trucks.com'
Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - pvc


>sounds to me like the problem is less a matter of too much vacuum, but
>rather that there is too much accumilation of oil in the top end of the
>engine. why though, i couldn't say having only limited FE experience with
>their aweful oiling system. another possibility would be that you have the
>vacuum routed the wrong why, or that you are getting severe blowby around
>the rings. how's the oil look? give it a compression test and see how
>that looks too.



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:42:02 -0500
From: "Robert F. Davis"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling

At 06:17 PM 05/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Normal surface street driving, under 2500rpm, shows 180-182 degrees on a
>mechanical gauge. No A/C running. At an extended 10 miles plus 2800rpm
>running session, 190-195. Newer 4-core, new cap/180 thermostat, six
>blade stock fan, oil cooler, 50/50 collant/water and hi-volume water
>pump. Mallory 9000 mechanical advance set for 24 degrees with 10 degrees
>at the crank. Headers.
>
>The plugs, Autolite 35s, are a consistent brown color with no trace of
>white. I went 4% richer on the Edelbrock 750 with no running temp change
>and very little plug color change.
>
>Am I still running too lean? Do I need to go to a hotter plug? Any
>suggestions would be appreciated before I go through the time and cost
>of having the distributor recurved, half a dozen sets of plug changes,
>rejetting the carb and consuming large quantities of my favorite
>beverage while staring at the engine.
>
>TIA
>
>George Miller
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>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:51:32 -0500
From: "Robert F. Davis"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - pvc

At 04:48 PM 05/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
> Hello there,I just put in a performance 390 in my 72 F-100. When I
>reached around the 500 mile mark, the motor started smoking out of the
>passenger side. I pulled the plugs on the passenger bank and all were oil
>soaked and carbon build up. The shop that built it, says that I have too
>much vaccum in the pvc. They said that I'm sucking oil out of the valve
>cover, into the carb, in the intake then back into the head. They told me
>to restrict the vaccum in the pvc line. So I did and still smoking. I have
>never heard of this kind of problem before. The cam wasn't supposed to
>operate my power brakes...but it does. It's a Lunati cam..duration .050
>is 230 gross duration is 292 gross lift is.544 lobe separation is 109. I
>have an Edlebrock Perfprmer RPM intake (dual plane) Hope someone out there
>can help! Thanks for your time.
>
>
> Corbin
> 72 F-100 390

Corbin,
I think somebody's yankin your timing chain about too much vacuum !!The PCV
valve restricts air flow from the valve cover to the intake. be sure you
have the correct PCV valve as they are flow rated for engine cid's.
I assume you have a PCV valve in the end of the hose that goes to your
valve cover. If not that could be your problem.
If it's only the cylinders on one side that really rules out the PVC system
since it feeds both plenum chambers equally. I'd look for an intake gasket
problem (not sealing on the pushrod chamber side) or maybe all the valve
seals are missing on one side. I have seen people forget to put them on
both heads.
"Beater" Bob

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:31:38 -0700
From: "Danger"
Subject: FTE Perf - Camshaft for 390 4bbl

Is this a good cam for a new 390 with hydraulic lifters/non adjustable
rockers(balanced and .030 over) 4bbl with 600 CFM
vacuum secondary Holley (#1850) in a 69 F250 CS 4x2 auto trans with 10:1
flat top pistons, heads with 68.1-71.1 CCV (C8AE H), 4/11 rear and dual
exhaust?

Competition Cam #33-222-3 (Ford 390-428)
Grind # FB 260H-10 High Energy
Gross valve Lift: .484 in, .484 ex
Duration at .006 tappet lift: 260 deg in, 260 deg ex
Duration at .050: 212 deg in, 212 deg ex
Lobe lift: .2795 in, .2795 ex
Lobe separation: 110 deg

at .006 intake: 24 deg BTDC open, 56 deg ABDC close
at .006 exhaust: 64 deg BBDC open, 16 deg ATDC close
Specifications are for cam installed at 110 degrees intake center line

Is this a good overall combination for power and reliability?

What kind of horsepower/torque could be expected?

Should a standard oil pump be used, or a high volume?

The auto trans was recently rebuilt for a 360, will a change/adjustment be
needed due to more power being applied?

BTW:) The truck must be able to pass emissions, get the holeshot in rush
hour (while empty), and pull a very long and very steep climb with a camper
and trailer.


Danger
danger csolutions.net
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.csolutions.net/danger


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:39:28 EDT
From: Bogginf350 AOL.COM
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Camshaft for 390 4bbl

have you thought of running a cam thats ground advanced for more low end
torque and throttle response
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:21:38 -0700
From: "Danger"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Camshaft for 390 4bbl

> have you thought of running a cam thats ground advanced for more low end
> torque and throttle response

...........

I honesty don't know much about camshaft design. The cam specs may as well
be in greek, because I don't understand them. I am building a 390 4bbl with
all new parts and would like advice on chosing a camshaft which is more
aggresive than stock. Although most of the time I'll be driving around town
without a load, when I put a camper on top of the truck and a trailer behind
it and climb a long steep grade, I need an engine that can pull hard.

What would be the best cam for a WOT climb with heavy load?

Danger
danger csolutions.net



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:28:48 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling

"O'Connell, Dennis M" wrote:
>
> George,
>
> Is it possible that at the higher RPM with the high flow water pump your
> just pushing coolant through the radiator faster than it can cool? What's
> it do at lower speeds under load with air, etc....?

It's right at 180-183 w/air. Same thing if I stand on it. The 183 is the
thermostat lag and it always comes right back down. This weekend I'll go
up on jetting and metering rods until I get a darker brown color on the
plugs and see if that changes anything.

I've got a very similar setup with my 429 and the only heating problem
I had is when I had hairline crack at the base of the radiator that was
causing me to lose pressure. Wouldn't happen at first or at low speeds,
but after extended idle or load, went up and wouldn't come down. Went on
for months until the crack got big enough to show some seepage. In the
meantime, I went with flowkooler, water wetter, six blade after market
fan, shroud. My overheating occurred at any time. And wasn't fixed
until I redid the radiator.

I'm not losing any coolant and the radiator is a fairly new 4-core.

> As a side note, I have since replaced the flow kooler with an edlebrock pump and it is even better.

This is a Weiand, about the same flow specs.

> I'd run mine up to see what happens, but to get to 2800 I would have to be running about 80 or 85 MPH. Hard to do in this part of California unless your a basketball or baseball star.

2800 is about 70mph for me, a real irritant with the higher temps as
that's about normal city freeway speed here.

This all started when I went to adjustible rocker arms and 'woke' up the
cam with precise lifter preload. Big difference in smoothness and
performance. That's what makes me suspect I'm still too lean on the
carb.

Thanks for the info.

George Miller

> Dennis
> 55F100
>
> > ----------
> > From: George Miller[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
> > Reply To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 6:17 PM
> > To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> > Subject: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling
> >
> > Normal surface street driving, under 2500rpm, shows 180-182 degrees on a
> > mechanical gauge. No A/C running. At an extended 10 miles plus 2800rpm
> > running session, 190-195. Newer 4-core, new cap/180 thermostat, six
> > blade stock fan, oil cooler, 50/50 collant/water and hi-volume water
> > pump. Mallory 9000 mechanical advance set for 24 degrees with 10 degrees
> > at the crank. Headers.
> >
> > The plugs, Autolite 35s, are a consistent brown color with no trace of
> > white. I went 4% richer on the Edelbrock 750 with no running temp change
> > and very little plug color change.
> >
> > Am I still running too lean? Do I need to go to a hotter plug? Any
> > suggestions would be appreciated before I go through the time and cost
> > of having the distributor recurved, half a dozen sets of plug changes,
> > rejetting the carb and consuming large quantities of my favorite
> > beverage while staring at the engine.
> >
> > TIA
> >
> > George Miller
> > == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
> >
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:23:48 -0400
From: Tim Turner
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - pvc

Neil Johnson wrote:
>
> Hello there,I just put in a performance 390 in my 72 F-100. When I
> reached around the 500 mile mark, the motor started smoking out of the
> passenger side. I pulled the plugs on the passenger bank and all were oil
> soaked and carbon build up.

What did the drivers side plugs look like?

> The shop that built it, says that I have too much vaccum in the pvc.

Huh? Unless it's the wrong one or the guts have come out of it it's
designed for a good 20"+ and with a larger cam you'll have less vacuum
than a stock engine...

> They said that I'm sucking oil out of the valve
> cover, into the carb, in the intake then back into the head.

Once it's in the intake that's it.. it's getting burned and the only
contact it has with the head is by going through the intake port and
valve. Depending on the location of the vacuum source for the PCV and
the manifold type it ought to be doing it to all cylinders or to the 2
inner cylinders on one side and the 2 outer cylinders on the other side.

> They told me to restrict the vaccum in the pvc line.

Never heard of doing that!

> have an Edlebrock Perfprmer RPM intake (dual plane) Hope someone out there
> can help! Thanks for your time.
>

As sleddog suggested, do a dry and wet compression test and let us know
what you come up with.

Tim Turner/Manic Mechanic
Custer Auto Repair
Wilmington NC USA
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:32:57 -0400
From: Tim Turner
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling

George Miller wrote:
>
> Normal surface street driving, under 2500rpm, shows 180-182 degrees on a
> mechanical gauge. No A/C running. At an extended 10 miles plus 2800rpm
> running session, 190-195. Newer 4-core, new cap/180 thermostat, six
> blade stock fan, oil cooler, 50/50 collant/water

I wouldn't be too concerned about it being 10-15 above the thermostat
rating. With a good cap and a 50/50 mix the boiling point should be
over 230.

> suggestions would be appreciated before I go through the time and cost
> of



> consuming large quantities of my favorite beverage while staring at the engine.

Funny.. I do that while staring at the computer monitor. ;-)

Tim
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:34:02 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Camshaft for 390 4bbl

You might consider your required MPH at WOT for how long on the climb to
help determine what torque/rpm range cam could do the job.

George Miller

Danger wrote:
>
> > have you thought of running a cam thats ground advanced for more low end
> > torque and throttle response
>
> ...........
>
> I honesty don't know much about camshaft design. The cam specs may as well
> be in greek, because I don't understand them. I am building a 390 4bbl with
> all new parts and would like advice on chosing a camshaft which is more
> aggresive than stock. Although most of the time I'll be driving around town
> without a load, when I put a camper on top of the truck and a trailer behind
> it and climb a long steep grade, I need an engine that can pull hard.
>
> What would be the best cam for a WOT climb with heavy load?
>
> Danger
> danger csolutions.net
>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:08:33 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling

Tim Turner wrote:
>
> George Miller wrote:
> >
> > Normal surface street driving, under 2500rpm, shows 180-182 degrees on a
> > mechanical gauge. No A/C running. At an extended 10 miles plus 2800rpm
> > running session, 190-195. Newer 4-core, new cap/180 thermostat, six
> > blade stock fan, oil cooler, 50/50 collant/water
>
> I wouldn't be too concerned about it being 10-15 above the thermostat
> rating. With a good cap and a 50/50 mix the boiling point should be
> over 230.
>
> > suggestions would be appreciated before I go through the time and cost
> > of
>
>
>
> > consuming large quantities of my favorite beverage while staring at the engine.
>
> Funny.. I do that while staring at the computer monitor. ;-)
>
> Tim

210-220 block degrees is a desired range to produce max HP for track
racing engines with consistent hot oil and high RPMs. I'm after as close
to the 180 degree thermostat design of the 385 series as I can get. I
realize the cam, headers and lack of vacuum advance have increased the
HP (heat) but compensated for that by upgrading the radiator, water pump
and adding oil/trans coolers. I was shocked when I discovered the
electric fans of modern, energy efficient engines have a 225 degree
thermostat. That heat efficiency also reduces engine component service
spans. I'm still after 180 degrees. I've set 185 as an outside,
acceptable default and hope I don't have to settle for the
default.
George Miller
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 99 19:35:05 PDT
From: don neomagic.com (Donald Paauw)
Subject: FTE Perf - what's the small hole in 5.0L thermostat for

My Haynes manual shows a small hole in the plate of the
thermostat & emphasizes that it must be oriented so that
the hole is on the upper side. I bought a replacement &
couldn't find any hole. I went ahead & put it in and every-
thing seems to be working. So what's the small hole in the
stock thermostat for & what am I risking?

- -- Don
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:16:32 -0400
From: Tim Turner
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling

George Miller wrote:
>

Just off hand; do you still have the fan shroud in place?

Tim
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 20:07:28 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 460 Cooling

Tim Turner wrote:
>
> George Miller wrote:
> >
>
> Just off hand; do you still have the fan shroud in place?

Yes.

>
> Tim
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:43:02 -0700
From: "Steven Salas"
Subject: FTE Perf - PCV / Smoking

In regards to your smoking problem you mentioned that you pulled plugs on
the passenger side of the engine and that they were oily, did you pull only
the passenger side? If only the plugs on the passenger side are oily, I....

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