perf-list-digest Thursday, May 13 1999 Volume 02 : Number 114



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - ADMIN: Off to Pigeon Forge
FTE Perf - RE: H-pipe or no H-pipe
Re: FTE Perf - RE: H-pipe or no H-pipe
FTE Perf - Re: H-pipe or no H-pipe
RE: FTE Perf - Borla exhaust system reverberating in cabin?
Re: FTE Perf - Re: H-pipe or no H-pipe
FTE Perf - solid roller cams
RE: FTE Perf - H-Pipe or No H-Pipe??
FTE Perf - ADMIN: FTE at the Supernationals
FTE Perf - Size Matters
FTE Perf - Correction: ADMIN: FTE at the Supernationals
RE: FTE Perf - solid roller cams
Re: FTE Perf - solid roller cams
Re: FTE Perf - solid roller cams
RE: FTE Perf - solid roller cams
FTE Perf - C6 2nd Gear Starts

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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 06:45:22 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE Perf - ADMIN: Off to Pigeon Forge

We're off to the 21st Annual F100 Supernationals in Pigeon
Forge, Tennessee. List make will be retrieved daily (bringing
the laptop) but questions to the admin or requests will not
be answered until Monday, May 17th unless its an emergency.

In addition to meeting many of the FTE's we're making this
a vacation for the wife and myself (grandmother is coming over
to watch the kids) so if anyone who shows up is willing to
watch the table for an hour or so it would really be appreciated.

We're bringing FTE t-shirts and window stickers with us in
case you want one. Also, if you've driven your Ford truck to
the show, please see us at the FTE / Georgia LoRider area --
we're giving away a free static window sticker to all FTEs
who drive their truck. Trucks with an FTE static sticker will
be judged for a "Best of Show" trophy that we're bringing
(its a nice trophy!). Any year/model is acceptable for
judging. Additionally, we're giving out free tickets to
FTE members -- there will be a "door prize" of a t-shirt,
window sticker, FTE email address and web space (email address
and web space will be for one year).

Lastly, we've been pretty slack with getting the prize packs
(a free t-shirt and email address for one year) to those who
submitted a design last fall. If you're one of the people
who submitted a design, please see us at the show or email
us your address (I know, I know... we asked for this before
but we lost the information).

See ya there, we're leaving now.....

Ken Payne
Admin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com




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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 05:38:01 -0700
From: "Dan Duke"
Subject: FTE Perf - RE: H-pipe or no H-pipe

I had a '69 Torino (that I really miss) that had the 351W-4V and 10.7:1 CR
and it came factory with an H-pipe. That car would run like a striped $$
ape too. I would put one in if I were you - I believe it has something to
do with scavenging exhaust gases effeciently because of the Fords
firing order. Plus it makes it sound sweet.

Hope it helps.

Dan Duke
'70 F-250 Camper Special




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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:31:02 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - RE: H-pipe or no H-pipe

>ape too. I would put one in if I were you - I believe it has something to
>do with scavenging exhaust gases effeciently because of the Fords
>firing order. Plus it makes it sound sweet.
>
It doesn't really matter that it's a Ford, all vehicles have firing orders,
hence pulses in the exhaust as each valve is opened and the exhaust forced
out, so the theory is that engines will perform better with an H or X pipe.
Supposedly an X is better because rather than just equalize the pressures,
it will also sync the pulses a bit and use the cross flow as sort of a
siphon to help pull the gasses down the other pipe ... I think Mac says
basically the same thing about their "power chamber" (www.macprod.com)

Anyone know the proper way to determine the exact location of these devices ?


Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/mustang.html
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:02:40 -0400
From: Bryan G Sheffler
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: H-pipe or no H-pipe

There are three ways of doing it. 1) There is actually a formula that
you can use to determine where to put the cross-over in the exhaust
system. A guy I know may have it, that's who I heard it from. I'll try
to see if he can did it up.
The next two are basically the same. You can either leave the exhaust
pipe bare, or put a streak of paint on the head pipes. These two require
that you run the engine. With the bare head pipes, you put the cross
over at the point the "bleu-ing" from the exhaust heat stops. With the
paint method, you put the cross over where the burned off paint stops.
Hope this helps.

Bryan
>
>Anyone know the proper way to determine the exact location of these
>devices ?
>
>
>Just my 2cents
>
>wish
>
>Links
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
>'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
>'96 Mustang GT
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/mustang.html
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:10:52 -0700
From: "Andrew Chung"
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Borla exhaust system reverberating in cabin?

Thanks for all the information that has flown back and forth. At least now
I'm more well informed as to what my options are and the possible pros/cons
for each method. I'm going to have to wait for either method until I get
more money in my budget for car mods. I'm leaning toward trying the dynamat
first, since that could lower the noise of the entire vehicle, and because I
don't have to hack up the Borla. I'm personally not concerned with the
noise of the exhaust with the windows rolled down because the wind noise
itself masks out the exhaust going 60+ MPH. With all the talk about the
sound transferring into the cabin, I'm thinking that the dynamat might help,
if it can lower the noise/change the tone then the the noise may not reverb
in the cabin anymore. Seems to make sense to me.

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-perf-list ford-trucks.com
[mailto:owner-perf-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of FLR150 AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 14:35
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Borla exhaust system reverberating in cabin?


In a message dated 5/11/99 9:53:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wish iastate.edu
writes:


the goal would be to kill the harmonic rather than just Band-Aid over it
...
>>

Gents,
I was offering a viable opinion and a variable for which the guy could make
his decision. I personally would not want to hack up my $600 exhaust system
and pay MORE labor to try to cover the exhaust note I bought it for in the
first place. I have installed the single in/dual out Flowmaster on my truck.
The reverb effect is only really noticeable at lower speeds, hence lower
tones. And since the actual muffler itself is placed right under the rear of
the Supercab, it does reverb a bit under the back seat. I can live with it.
And regarding transfer function, it is basically as you stated Wish, except
that when I did the trunk and interior of my car in Dynamat, I could not
hear
my loud (read custom header, freeflow cat, 3" pipe out to a Supertrapp)
exhaust on my grand am. Yes I could hear it with the windows down (DUH) but
my driving was done with the windows up since I wore a suit to work...and
the
heat in Daytona beach would stain a nice dress shirt with your sweat in a
matter of minutes. Enough of this bantering,
Later,
Wayne Foy
'94 Flareside SC
"Hazardous Material"
Wayne's Flareside
and Ford Page (Page 1)

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:24:39 -0500
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re: H-pipe or no H-pipe

>There are three ways of doing it. 1) There is actually a formula that
>you can use to determine where to put the cross-over in the exhaust
>system. A guy I know may have it, that's who I heard it from. I'll try
>to see if he can did it up.

Hey, I'd love to at least give this a shot, nothin like 2 or 3 methods to
get you a good estimate.

>The next two are basically the same. You can either leave the exhaust
>pipe bare, or put a streak of paint on the head pipes. These two require
>that you run the engine. With the bare head pipes, you put the cross
>over at the point the "bleu-ing" from the exhaust heat stops. With the
>paint method, you put the cross over where the burned off paint stops.
>Hope this helps.
>
So since my exhaust has been on the truck for a while I can figure it out
by where the discolorations stop ? I assume that'll change when I put the
headers on though, so I'll wait for that, that's why it'd be nice to use
the formula to get a guess in at least.


Just my 2cents

wish

Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/mustang.html
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:55:52 EDT
From: Bogginf350 AOL.COM
Subject: FTE Perf - solid roller cams

ok, i have recently built a 460... 12.1 kieth black pistons... dooe-r 1971
scj heads. stainless undercut valves. a cam motions .695 .645 lift soild
roller cam. along with k-motion valve springs... the roller rockers and
etc... this is the second lower end i have built for this engine, last year..
the motor had little to no oil pressure... and as you can guess it came apart
at about 7200rpm`s at the end of the mud-drag pit... ive talked to some
people about the upper end lube for this motor because i need some sort of
restriction to hold that oil pressure to the lower end. Ive thought of using
the roller cam bearings offerd by motorsport for the 385 series big block to
increase oil pressure. as they work off splash lube only.. can anyone help me
with my oiling problems...?
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:58:46 -0700
From: "O'Connell, Dennis M"
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - H-Pipe or No H-Pipe??

Bill,

Just had new exhaust put on my 429, flowmasters got to loud. My muffler guy
put in a crossover (H pipe?) and indicated it would give me more horsepower.
He was talking 10 to 12 HP with the new mufflers and pipe. It does seem to
run better at low RPM. I have comp headers with a very short 2 1/2'
exhaust. Tips come out in front of the rear wheels ala Nascar.

Dennis
55F100

> ----------
> From: Bill[SMTP:gypsybilll yahoo.com]
> Reply To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 8:24 AM
> To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: FTE Perf - H-Pipe or No H-Pipe??
>
>
> In the on going saga of my engine swap, I am having an entirely new
> exhaust system built (manifolds to tail pipe tips). Going to go at
> least 2.5 inches all the way on the duals... anyone have any
> comments/suggestions on having a H-pipe added between the exhaust
> pipes? Doesnt cost me anymore to have it done while the system is
> being built.. just dont know if it is necessary or provides any benefit
> for the 351W.. had it done on a 64 thunderbird (390 of course) because
> the old system had one and had read a thread on a vintage t-bird list
> that I subscribed to as being necessary to get the most out of the
> system..
>
> Also, I have a set of shorty headers (Hedman) that I still cant decide
> on using... have to get them ceramic coated to keep down the underhood
> heat... otherwise, I am using stock manifolds off a 69 mustand mach I
> (351W 4V engine). Just not sure if I want to put up with the typical
> header problems.. any comments??
>
> If all the parts arrive in time, work begins this weekend...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill in Texas
> '64 F100 Shortbox (351W/C4)
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> > == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:17:09 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE Perf - ADMIN: FTE at the Supernationals

Hi gang! Just wanted anyone who's attending the Supernationals
to know that we're at the Days Inn, room 208 (you'll see an
FTE window sticker on the hotel room window). Stop by for your
free door prize ticket and a window sticker for your truck (if
you brought it to the show).

Ken Payne
FTE Admin

PS - Keith and Deacon, wish you were here!!

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Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:38:34 CDT
From: "PitStop Performance"
Subject: FTE Perf - Size Matters

>
>>It is 964 cubic inches. It is 5 feet long, 3-1/2 feet wide, and
4-1/2
>>feet tall. It weighs almost 3000 lbs dry. Ford truck content: it
would
>>not fit under the hood of any Ford truck.
>>

Hmmm, but you might be able to fit it in the bed (with a topper).
hehehe.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:03:07 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE Perf - Correction: ADMIN: FTE at the Supernationals

Woops! I meant room 205! Not 208 (luckily, 208 is another
FTE's room).

Ken

Ken Payne wrote:
>
> Hi gang! Just wanted anyone who's attending the Supernationals
> to know that we're at the Days Inn, room 208 (you'll see an
> FTE window sticker on the hotel room window). Stop by for your
> free door prize ticket and a window sticker for your truck (if
> you brought it to the show).
>
> Ken Payne
> FTE Admin
>
> PS - Keith and Deacon, wish you were here!!
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:44:10 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - solid roller cams

Sounds like a nice motor.

The block needs to be restricted. using the roller bearings will not solve
the oil loss to the top end. You need to restrict it to the cam, lifters
and heads. even with the roller bearings, you need to do the restriction
as far as i remember. This is a complete teardown and alot of expensive
machining to a stock block. If you are interested in doing it call
someplace like engine systems.

770.491.0583

They can do the machine work, or tell yu what needs to ben done. i'd tell
you, but i do not want to leave anything out, forget anything.

You also may want to consider tighter bottom end tolerances. Is it a stick
or you run an auto? an auto can get by with less side rod clearance. I
run a cam similiar in size, also k-motion springs (btw-make sure you got
good temp before blasting the throttle or they may break) and have turned
those rpms without any problems so far. my block has no restriction done
to it. oil pressure, when hot is very low. so far i have not been able to
get time to read the gauge when twisting its tail on the track though - no
time. i run oliver steel rods, offset crank, and blue thunder heads, 1225
dominator.

if you are running full groove bearings, consider the use of half groove or
3/4 groove.

are you running a stock crank? stroked at all? what kind of rods?

Sleddog

- ----------
From: Bogginf350 AOL.COM[SMTP:Bogginf350 AOL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 12:55 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - solid roller cams

ok, i have recently built a 460... 12.1 kieth black pistons... dooe-r 1971
scj heads. stainless undercut valves. a cam motions .695 .645 lift soild
roller cam. along with k-motion valve springs... the roller rockers and
etc... this is the second lower end i have built for this engine, last
year..
the motor had little to no oil pressure... and as you can guess it came
apart
at about 7200rpm`s at the end of the mud-drag pit... ive talked to some
people about the upper end lube for this motor because i need some sort of
restriction to hold that oil pressure to the lower end. Ive thought of
using
the roller cam bearings offerd by motorsport for the 385 series big block
to
increase oil pressure. as they work off splash lube only.. can anyone help
me
with my oiling problems...?
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:49:39 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - solid roller cams

I can't help you but there are a couple of list members and contributors
on fordnatics who build the 385 series for competition usage. They talk
about bronze bushed lifter bores and other methods of protecting the
bottom end from oil depravation.

George Miller

Bogginf350 AOL.COM wrote:
>
> ok, i have recently built a 460... 12.1 kieth black pistons... dooe-r 1971
> scj heads. stainless undercut valves. a cam motions .695 .645 lift soild
> roller cam. along with k-motion valve springs... the roller rockers and
> etc... this is the second lower end i have built for this engine, last year..
> the motor had little to no oil pressure... and as you can guess it came apart
> at about 7200rpm`s at the end of the mud-drag pit... ive talked to some
> people about the upper end lube for this motor because i need some sort of
> restriction to hold that oil pressure to the lower end. Ive thought of using
> the roller cam bearings offerd by motorsport for the 385 series big block to
> increase oil pressure. as they work off splash lube only.. can anyone help me
> with my oiling problems...?
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:48:22 EDT
From: Bogginf350 AOL.COM
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - solid roller cams

i talked to runion engines in decatur il, they actually built a big block 4.5
bore and 4.5 stroke which i think was a 572ci... and it had the same
problems. they said the roller bearings solved the prob? oil pressure went to
95lbs hot? ill try to see whats going on..... i run just a stock crank, cj
rods(football head) bolts with the small shoulder) and its all balanced.I
just run federal mogul stock style bearings
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:15:44 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - solid roller cams

stock rods? oh boy. stock rods at over 7000 rpms. most likely bursts
past that pretty far yet with a roller cam the size you said. Stock rods
were not meant to take that kind of rpm. i don't care what you do to them
as far as polishing them or whatever.

They are a heavy rod, and not that strong for that kind of power potential
and engine speed. something is bound to happen. Yes, you need oil, but
all the oilling system work you want to do isn't worth a damn if the rod
can't take it.

What exactly happened to your bottom end? busted parts? holes in the block
and pan? or less, like spun bearings or seized parts? if you have broken
parts, i would look to things like a rod failure or bolt failure before
thinking it is an oiling problem. also, stock style, as in OEM replacement
bearings are no good. at least run clevette/michigan 77.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Bogginf350 AOL.COM[SMTP:Bogginf350 AOL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 10:48 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - solid roller cams

i talked to runion engines in decatur il, they actually built a big block
4.5
bore and 4.5 stroke which i think was a 572ci... and it had the same
problems. they said the roller bearings solved the prob? oil pressure went
to
95lbs hot? ill try to see whats going on..... i run just a stock crank, cj
rods(football head) bolts with the small shoulder) and its all balanced.I
just run federal mogul stock style bearings
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:52:48 -0700
From: Vogt Family
Subject: FTE Perf - C6 2nd Gear Starts

Today after changing the fluid and filter on my transmission ('86 F-250
Diesel, C6) blowing out the coolers with 35 psi air, replacing the....


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