perf-list-digest Monday, January 18 1999 Volume 02 : Number 011



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
Re: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
Re: FTE Perf - re: FTE 80-96 - Steering wheel w/cruise
cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
Re: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
FTE Perf - giggle juice was:RE: cost of HP
RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
FTE Perf - cost of HP, PLD V2 #10
FTE Perf - Re: Cost of H.P.
RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP, PLD V2 #10
FTE Perf - Steering wheel with cruise
FTE Perf - Back Copy
Re: FTE Perf - Back Copy
FTE Perf - Re: Back Copy
FTE Perf - K & N filtercharger
Re: FTE Perf - Re: Cost of H.P.
FTE Perf - Bumper Dumper
FTE Perf - ADMIN: Web site updates

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Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:00:48 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

ok, i had a grasp on that aspect. but when a consumer looks at the
available products, what really happens?

example: swirl torque carb spacers. a 4 hole spacer with a small groove
that supposably increases mixture quality and therefore performance in the
low rpm ranges.

they even publish numbers for this $35+ aluminum part. but a standard 4
hole spacer that is plastic or phenolic or wood can be purchased for up to
$10 cheaper and provides a different and known benefit of insulating the
carb.

do we believe the advertised claims? how about mufflers. different
brands/prices/materials/designs. marketing has to play the biggest role in
the general consumers' choices. so what makes the difference?

why are people who many times don't know the difference between a
backpressure style and an interference style muffler able to make a choice
between the two? same price and performance range, but two different
approaches to the matter.

what is it in marketing, like ads, print, tv, or whatever, that sways
peoples judgement? we never can really know for sure what parts will do to
our trucks performance wise, so what is it that "makes" the choice for us?

if i said i have a $25 dollar part that installs in 10 minutes with no
special tools and will provide an increase of 5 hp with no losses, only
gains, weighs almost nothing, and may provide a 5-10 hp increase in an
engine that already produces 450 or more ponies, would anyone buy it?

or is it required to have some "proof"?? i rarely see proof in ads, and
what i do see i have a tendancy to disbelieve. i know how i make my
choices, but how about everyone else?

sleddog

- ----------
From: George[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:43 AM
To: Ford Truck Performance List (E-mail)
Subject: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Marketing. In every formal business plan you'll find a marketing budget. As
most business plans are structured to available capital, the marketing
budget must be capable of recovering administrative, manufacturing and
marketing costs and provide a return on the investment capital. What does
it take to make a 'high performance' article the best seller? There are
plenty of manufacturers out there, most with credentials from the early
days of hot rodding and state of the art CNC manufacturing equipment. I
doubt that many have the resources (budget) of an Edelbrock or K&N, which
allows them to advertise in virtually every enthusiast publication, achieve
application articles in those publications where they spend heavy
advertising gold, attend every trade/distributor show and maintain cost
effective manufacturing abilities to meet defined objectives. That's
traditional brand marketing.

New or innovative products are normally developed by individuals or well
capitalized development groups, sold through word of mouth, connections and
hustle until the product reaches a consistent level of acceptability and
then sold to or financed for market expansion by a company with the
resources to spend the big bucks. Investors in one form or another.

You need a product, proven benefits, some connections, lots of energy and
eventual access to money in order to seriously compete in the low margin
businesses. There are exceptions but not many. Sorry for the ramble.

George Miller


was wondering mostly about the way products are marketed and why people buy
one thing over another at the low price ranges. once over $3,000 or so, i
can understand it more - it makes more sense why one item is chosen over
the other.

sleddog


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:28:19 -0600
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

>do we believe the advertised claims? how about mufflers. different
>brands/prices/materials/designs. marketing has to play the biggest role in
>the general consumers' choices. so what makes the difference?
>
Here I think I can offer some insite. When I am looking for a muffler for
instance, I want a good sound, not much back pressure and a lifetime
warranty. Depending on the application I'm looking for those weigh
differently. But if its for a V8 like my car and truck, the sound and
warranty are big ones, don't wanna crappy sounding muffler that will never
rot out, but if its good sounding I dont' want to have to buy it again and
again (yes I keep my vehicles "too long"). When I'm looking for mufflers I
go by what I hear on other vehicles with similar outputs (compression
ratio, displacement, etc). I also have some basic understanding of flow
and air pressures (2 years as an aerospace eng. major will do that to a
person) so by looking at the diagrams, with a bit of cynic blended in, I
can get a pretty good idea how restrictive a muffler will be.


>why are people who many times don't know the difference between a
>backpressure style and an interference style muffler able to make a choice
>between the two?

I think this comes down to well my friend has one that works for him, so it
must work for me ... not always the best approach, but if you've been
following your friend like that you probably have a similar vehicle.


>if i said i have a $25 dollar part that installs in 10 minutes with no
>special tools and will provide an increase of 5 hp with no losses, only
>gains, weighs almost nothing, and may provide a 5-10 hp increase in an
>engine that already produces 450 or more ponies, would anyone buy it?
>
>or is it required to have some "proof"?? i rarely see proof in ads, and
>what i do see i have a tendancy to disbelieve. i know how i make my
>choices, but how about everyone else?
>
This would excite me at first .. I mean if its really that easy, but the
cynic in me would quickly take over, I'd want to see how it was built, what
it claimed to do to increase the power, numbers would be nice, but the
theory has to hold up in my mind too .. sometimes the theory holds up and
doesn't work, sometimes the other way around, but if neither one does, it
should be pretty easy to spot based on a picture/diagram of the part ...



Just my 2cents

Bill

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Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:40:26 EST
From: CRGREENE1 AOL.COM
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - re: FTE 80-96 - Steering wheel w/cruise

Hey Chris,

Let me check out that "Grant wheel" also!

Thanks bud,
C.R.G ('92 F 250)
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Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:00:24 -0800
From: George
Subject: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Sleddog wrote:

what is it in marketing, like ads, print, tv, or whatever, that sways
peoples judgement? we never can really know for sure what parts will do to
our trucks performance wise, so what is it that "makes" the choice for us?

Don't remember the numbers but it's established that repetitious exposure
(by ads or displays) will brand a product in the mind of general consumers.
When they get ready to buy, their recall brings those images into place.
These lists are probably a poor sampling for advertising effectiveness as
most of us research or ask a list for experienced comments before
purchasing parts. Or most things.

if i said i have a $25 dollar part that installs in 10 minutes with no
special tools and will provide an increase of 5 hp with no losses, only
gains, weighs almost nothing, and may provide a 5-10 hp increase in an
engine that already produces 450 or more ponies, would anyone buy it?

At that HP level, I personally can't see the value of an additional 5-10HP.
If you were pitching say the rice burner crowd or another mass market of
initially low HP, it would be a different story.

or is it required to have some "proof"?? i rarely see proof in ads, and
what i do see i have a tendancy to disbelieve. i know how i make my
choices, but how about everyone else?

Advertising proof is pretty vague. Those who don't do the research purchase
on word-of-mouth advice, advertising exposure or impulse. I'm a
researcher, word of mouth from what I'd consider experienced users and
asking list advice type of buyer.

George Miller


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:38:46 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

if this topic is annoying anyone just say so, i'll take it off the lists...
Anyway...

uh, why wouldn't an additional increase of 5-10 be a of value for so low a
price?

the cost of power goes up exponetially as power goes up, so at such a low
price there would be no value? or is it that that is already enuff power?

for example, i have about 750 hp now. if i can add 5-10 for $25 (assuming
it works) that is pretty good as a larger cam for me would cost over $200
(roller) and give about 50hp increase at this point. the cheaper part
seems like a better or equal value for a lower price...(the ficticious
part). to get another 100hp i would need about $3,000 for more cubes.
that seems like very little value. (on the surface, but cubes add to the
whole curve, not just to the top.)

am i alone in the thinking of dollars/HP as a means of judging one upgrade
to another?? aside from the "proof" supplied by marketing and other
builders, friends, etc.

any thoughts?

sleddog

- ----------
From: George[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:00 PM
To: Ford Truck Performance List (E-mail)
Subject: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP


if i said i have a $25 dollar part that installs in 10 minutes with no
special tools and will provide an increase of 5 hp with no losses, only
gains, weighs almost nothing, and may provide a 5-10 hp increase in an
engine that already produces 450 or more ponies, would anyone buy it?

At that HP level, I personally can't see the value of an additional 5-10HP.
If you were pitching say the rice burner crowd or another mass market of
initially low HP, it would be a different story.



George Miller



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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:22:04 -0800
From: George
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Sleddog wrote

if this topic is annoying anyone just say so, i'll take it off the lists...
Anyway...

Didn't mean it as a flame; just pointing out that most list members aren't
typical parts consumers.

uh, why wouldn't an additional increase of 5-10 be a of value for so low a
price?

I'm not a racer and for street usage anything over 400HP doesn't mean
much. It'll already give plenty thrill factor and do the job. If I were a
racer, 5-10HP would be very important.

the cost of power goes up exponetially as power goes up, so at such a low
price there would be no value? or is it that that is already enuff power?

I think it goes back to the marketing thing. In my opinion, the initial
target consumers would be the racers. When a product saturates a market
like racers, and gets a rep, financing to introduce it to the wannabes,
where the money is, would be pretty easy to obtain. Those are the two
groups who truly gauge HP by $ investment.

for example, i have about 750 hp now. if i can add 5-10 for $25 (assuming
it works) that is pretty good as a larger cam for me would cost over $200
(roller) and give about 50hp increase at this point. the cheaper part
seems like a better or equal value for a lower price...(the ficticious
part). to get another 100hp i would need about $3,000 for more cubes.
that seems like very little value. (on the surface, but cubes add to the
whole curve, not just to the top.)

In your circumstance, wouldn't nitrous be more cost effective?

am i alone in the thinking of dollars/HP as a means of judging one upgrade
to another?? aside from the "proof" supplied by marketing and other
builders, friends, etc.

I think it's an excellent investment gauge. To elaborate on my prior
statement, I think the racer crowd would be the best starting point for any
new product. If that segment used it as a 'standard' item, the word of
mouth (testimonial) would provide the necessary means to introduce it to
the largest segment, the low HP mob. Like the racers, $ to HP is very
important to people running a mostly stock engine. To me, getting to
400-450HP is somewhat of a standardized $ to HP factor. The only variances
are what can I run used and who has the best prices on the new stuff.

George Miller


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:32:08 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

oh no way, i didn't take it as a flame at all! not a problem, just getting directly to the question - musta been too direct ;)

sleddog

- ----------
From: George[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 8:22 PM
To: Ford Truck Performance List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Sleddog wrote

if this topic is annoying anyone just say so, i'll take it off the lists...
Anyway...

Didn't mean it as a flame; just pointing out that most list members aren't
typical parts consumers.

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:36:47 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

can't run nitrous - against the rules! but i would like to give it a try
sometime, like right before i have a new engine to got into the truck! a
nice 250-300 hp shot would sure wake the beast within!! nitrous is IMO the
best bang for the buck going as long as the bottom end is ready for it ;)

BTW, at least one person is "cheating" with it on a small block chevy.

sleddog

- ----------
From: George[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 8:22 PM
To: Ford Truck Performance List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Sleddog wrote


for example, i have about 750 hp now. if i can add 5-10 for $25 (assuming
it works) that is pretty good as a larger cam for me would cost over $200
(roller) and give about 50hp increase at this point. the cheaper part
seems like a better or equal value for a lower price...(the ficticious
part). to get another 100hp i would need about $3,000 for more cubes.
that seems like very little value. (on the surface, but cubes add to the
whole curve, not just to the top.)

In your circumstance, wouldn't nitrous be more cost effective?



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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:41:29 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

oh yeh, used is great! almost my whole truck is used with the exception of
the rotating assembly (bottom end) and a tach and some misc items. used is
*most* often a better value than new with hard parts like heads, blocks,
crank, and bolt on parts like covers, carbs, headers, etc.

the whole thing really amazes me as far as the marketing goes, like
splitfire plug wires, slick 50, prolong, swirl torque plates, mufflers in
general, etc.

sleddog

- ----------
From: George[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 8:22 PM
To: Ford Truck Performance List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP


I think it's an excellent investment gauge. To elaborate on my prior
statement, I think the racer crowd would be the best starting point for any
new product. If that segment used it as a 'standard' item, the word of
mouth (testimonial) would provide the necessary means to introduce it to
the largest segment, the low HP mob. Like the racers, $ to HP is very
important to people running a mostly stock engine. To me, getting to
400-450HP is somewhat of a standardized $ to HP factor. The only variances
are what can I run used and who has the best prices on the new stuff.

George Miller




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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:12:01 -0500
From: Garr&Pam
Subject: Re: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Sleddog wrote:
>
> ok, i had a grasp on that aspect. but when a consumer looks at the
> available products, what really happens?
>
> example: swirl torque carb spacers. a 4 hole spacer with a small groove
> that supposably increases mixture quality and therefore performance in the
> low rpm ranges.
>
> they even publish numbers for this $35+ aluminum part. but a standard 4
> hole spacer that is plastic or phenolic or wood can be purchased for up to
> $10 cheaper and provides a different and known benefit of insulating the
> carb.
>
> do we believe the advertised claims? how about mufflers. different
> brands/prices/materials/designs. marketing has to play the biggest role in
> the general consumers' choices. so what makes the difference?
>
> why are people who many times don't know the difference between a
> backpressure style and an interference style muffler able to make a choice
> between the two? same price and performance range, but two different
> approaches to the matter.
>
> what is it in marketing, like ads, print, tv, or whatever, that sways
> peoples judgement? we never can really know for sure what parts will do to
> our trucks performance wise, so what is it that "makes" the choice for us?
>
> if i said i have a $25 dollar part that installs in 10 minutes with no
> special tools and will provide an increase of 5 hp with no losses, only
> gains, weighs almost nothing, and may provide a 5-10 hp increase in an
> engine that already produces 450 or more ponies, would anyone buy it?
>
> or is it required to have some "proof"?? i rarely see proof in ads, and
> what i do see i have a tendancy to disbelieve. i know how i make my
> choices, but how about everyone else?
>
> sleddog
>
> ----------
> From: George[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:43 AM
> To: Ford Truck Performance List (E-mail)
> Subject: FTE Perf - cost of HP
>
> Marketing. In every formal business plan you'll find a marketing budget. As
> most business plans are structured to available capital, the marketing
> budget must be capable of recovering administrative, manufacturing and
> marketing costs and provide a return on the investment capital. What does
> it take to make a 'high performance' article the best seller? There are
> plenty of manufacturers out there, most with credentials from the early
> days of hot rodding and state of the art CNC manufacturing equipment. I
> doubt that many have the resources (budget) of an Edelbrock or K&N, which
> allows them to advertise in virtually every enthusiast publication, achieve
> application articles in those publications where they spend heavy
> advertising gold, attend every trade/distributor show and maintain cost
> effective manufacturing abilities to meet defined objectives. That's
> traditional brand marketing.
>
> New or innovative products are normally developed by individuals or well
> capitalized development groups, sold through word of mouth, connections and
> hustle until the product reaches a consistent level of acceptability and
> then sold to or financed for market expansion by a company with the
> resources to spend the big bucks. Investors in one form or another.
>
> You need a product, proven benefits, some connections, lots of energy and
> eventual access to money in order to seriously compete in the low margin
> businesses. There are exceptions but not many. Sorry for the ramble.
>
> George Miller
>
> was wondering mostly about the way products are marketed and why people buy
> one thing over another at the low price ranges. once over $3,000 or so, i
> can understand it more - it makes more sense why one item is chosen over
> the other.
>
> sleddog
>
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>
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

I usually ask the Lightning list what they recommend and have experience
with and go by that for my Lightning upgrades!
Chris

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:48:39 -0800
From: George
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

can't run nitrous - against the rules! but i would like to give it a try
sometime, like right before i have a new engine to got into the truck! a
nice 250-300 hp shot would sure wake the beast within!! nitrous is IMO the
best bang for the buck going as long as the bottom end is ready for it ;)

I agree. Makes me wonder how a 75-150 shot on a mostly stock 460 would
compare cost wise to the traditional 400-450HP street build. With a final
C/R of under 10.0:1 on iron heads, forged pistons and an ignition system
with auto-advance retardation, one would be in for about the same as a set
of aluminum heads.

BTW, at least one person is "cheating" with it on a small block chevy.

I've seen ads the for the 'snake' cylinders. Mounted on the frame with
connections coming from the back of the engine would make it low profile.
You guys know what you're doing, so it must be a giggle to watch a small
block chevy produce 150HP over what it's capable of in a carb only
configuration.

George Miller


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Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:20:34 -0800
From: George
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

the whole thing really amazes me as far as the marketing goes, like
splitfire plug wires, slick 50, prolong, swirl torque plates, mufflers in
general, etc.

sleddog

It has to do with the HP per $ you're talking about. When you impose low
end cost vague or implied product benefits on minds unfamiliar with the
technical side of auto engine performance, enough advertising bucks will
make them believe anything
What does work best; the Quaker States or bulk dino oil? I've watched a
name brand anti-freeze production line where the only differences between
the TV advertised product and the bulk was color, container and price. A
large segment of the public demands branded products. The Ford Ranger is
largely Mazda engineering and production parts but most owners would think
you were nuts if you explained it to them. And on and on.

George Miller


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:04:40 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: FTE Perf - giggle juice was:RE: cost of HP

a good stock 460, with at least a minimum of larger ex valve and porting
and of course a solid bottom end i think could take a good 200hp shot,
putting it at about 500 hp. if the kit itself cost 1,000 bucks even, it is
alot more hp/buck than heads, intake, roller cam, etc. and it will still
be streetable and reliable when not under the bottle. without the exhaust
work, i think a 100 hp shot would be pushing the limits of the exhaust port
a bit - and the heat may then cause some problems in that area.

when done right, imo the bottle is always cheaper. in fact there is a
puller who used to take junkyard bottom ends of 460's and put his good
heads/intake/carb/headers on them and a nitrous kit hidden. ran them until
they blew and then did it again. a couple of pulls on each and then BOOM!
flames out the radiater and everything.

the SB chevy that runs it (and denies it of course) can't compete with the
other hot small blocks - a few dodges and one chevy. so even with the n
itrous, he ain't winning. amazing how it bogs mid track and then comes on
real hard :)

a current hot SB around here in pulling will be making about 550-600 hp on
a single 4bbl. but then again, they are running at least 400 cubes
usually. i only know of one smaller that is competitive - 340cid.

a hot BB is running at least 800 or so on a single 4bbl. mine ain't hot
yet at 750 or so ;)

the most competitive trucks are running around 600 cubes. i hope to be
competitive with only 521 now. i got my work cut out for me. i have many
times thought about the juice as an easy way to get more power.

i know of many ways to hid it so it will NEVER be found. a 200 shot would
not hurt my bottom end except the cylinder walls are very thin and with the
concrete in the water jacketing it gets real hot real fast, but i have
considered it. well, i consider it alot, but i really want to win with a
smaller and cheaper motor without cheating at all. hell, right now even my
weelbase is legal - and many others are not.

now i am rambling again...

sleddog

- ----------
From: George[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:48 PM
To: Ford Truck Performance List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

I agree. Makes me wonder how a 75-150 shot on a mostly stock 460 would
compare cost wise to the traditional 400-450HP street build. With a final
C/R of under 10.0:1 on iron heads, forged pistons and an ignition system
with auto-advance retardation, one would be in for about the same as a set
of aluminum heads.

BTW, at least one person is "cheating" with it on a small block chevy.

I've seen ads the for the 'snake' cylinders. Mounted on the frame with
connections coming from the back of the engine would make it low profile.
You guys know what you're doing, so it must be a giggle to watch a small
block chevy produce 150HP over what it's capable of in a carb only
configuration.

George Miller


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:19:07 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

i do agree. which makes me think. on products that function in ways
beyond my complete understanding or experiences, would i fall into the same
trap? for example TK-7 fuel additive (david vizard claims benefits that i
cannot prove or even fully understand the chemistry behind). how about the
benefits of a hotter spark? can't tell if i need more spark energy than i
already have so...it is just guess work at this point. i suppose at some
point we all fall into the trap of marketing hype and magazine "articles"
that are really just advertisements for some company.

this may help explain why some high dollar engines with all the right parts
can't compete with some lowbuck, all used parts, "can't believe it even
runs" engines that reach the winners circle. i always liked it when the
underdog wins - especially when it's me!

sleddog

- ----------
From: George[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 11:20 PM
To: Ford Truck Performance List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: cost of HP more ramblings was RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

It has to do with the HP per $ you're talking about. When you impose low
end cost vague or implied product benefits on minds unfamiliar with the
technical side of auto engine performance, enough advertising bucks will
make them believe anything
What does work best; the Quaker States or bulk dino oil? I've watched a
name brand anti-freeze production line where the only differences between
the TV advertised product and the bulk was color, container and price. A
large segment of the public demands branded products. The Ford Ranger is
largely Mazda engineering and production parts but most owners would think
you were nuts if you explained it to them. And on and on.

George Miller





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Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:40:36 GMT
From: cdailey newsguy.com (Chad Dailey)
Subject: FTE Perf - cost of HP, PLD V2 #10

>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:33:18 -0600
>From: William S Hart
>Subject: Re: FTE Perf - cost of HP
>
>>how much would one expect to get from-
>>
>>under $25
>>
>Initially some big power can be gained through SOME of these upgrades, =
but
>generally I expect a little better power, but more like better =
efficiency,
>cleaner running or neater looking ...

I gotta agree with Bill here. Mostly efficiency related stuff falls
in this category.

>>$25-$50
>>
>Big power again from base, but moderate (to about 5hp) for an average
>vehicle ... some better increases in efficiencies mostly, maybe a little
>better note or throttle response....

Same here, I at least would expect very crisp throttle response
(especially off idle), definitely a marked increase in the cleanliness
of the engine internally.

>>$50-$100
>>
>better increases in hp no matter what the base is .. probably in the =
5-10,
>maybe more.

I'd have a little higher expectations here. Improvement should be
noticeable across the operating range of the engine, and my butt ought
to tighten a little bit under acceleration.

>>$100-$500
>>
>Some much better notes from the exhaust as power increases are quite
>dramatic ... especially for older engines.

Agreed again, but my expectations are pretty high for this kind of
cash layout. When I start to drop this kind of dough, I want RESULTS.
If someone else is sitting in the car/truck, they ought to say "Wow!
What did yo do to this thing?" I really shop around a lot when I'm
carrying Ben Franklin around with me. Mileage becomes less of a
consideration, and performance takes a front seat. =20

>>$500-?????
>>
>Well if I'm spending that much can I expect a double in power ? :) J/K
>but major power increases.

At this price level, I either expect tremendous increases in power
(75HP minimum) or bulletproof parts that will survive any amount of
abuse I can deliver, for an extended period of time.

>>oh, and what is expected as far as proof that a product works in the=20
>>marketing sence, or is that irrelevant? word of mouth? store parts =
dude=20
>>recommendations?

That's kind of tough to quantify. For less than $75, I'm willing to
experiment a little on my own. Taking the advice of a magazine or ad
can sway me in this price range. Parts monkeys can sometime do this,
but usually they don't even know how to suggestive sell. I'm willing
to play a bit. Racers are usually the best source for unknown, el
cheapo mods that really work. For more dough, I really start to ask
questions. I ask racers that have used the product in question, or
call the manufacturer directly. Places like Summit are a pretty
decent source, but they are trying to sell product, therefore a bit
suspect. I also find that certain combinations work best, and some
don't work at all. The IC engine is a complex *system*, and it is
rare when one variable dramatically affects output. Plugging info
into programs like Quarter Jr. is nice when the dollar outlay is
significant.

>That's a good question, and I've kind of wondered how others judged this
>stuff. For it to sell me, well people who have tried it have to swear =
by
>it (not just idiots either, but that's a judgement call on your part :)
>also usually helps if the person telling me it works has some prior
>knowledge or experience with other products. A 16yr old kid isn't going=
to
>convince me that the product works unless he really knows what he's =
talkin
>about and has lived race cars his whole life, even then its shady. On =
the
>other side an older guy who's been workin on engines for quite some time
>(like my g.f.'s dad), I'll take what he has to say pretty seriously.
>Obviously this isn't quite right, but usually works around here.

Second this one, too.

>>any thoughts?
>>
>Just thinkin that generally the appearance of technology in the part =
will
>sell people on it. It is also more expensive (generally) to upgrade a =
new
>"high tech" engine or an old out of production engine, than the more =
common
>5.0's and other things that seem to grow on trees (my 4.6 mustang vs. =
390
>truck are more expensive it seems like). But also that if a part can =
pull
>off the image of high technology design, then people will tend to think =
its
>better. No dissin on anyone who may have come to that conclusion =
before, I
>know I have, but still its just something people don't think about all =
the
>time.

This is true for *some* people. This tends to go away after you have
been burned on advice a couple of times after dropping big dough.

>>ps-i was thinking about how certain products are marketed that *most=20
>>likely* don't do anything, or others that have stiff competition yet =
sell=20
>>well without marketing hype. and the price difference between very=20
>>similiar items and how they work, or if one at te same price works so =
much=20
>>better...
>>
>good question, always wondered this, but never knew how to go about it =
...
>lemme know what deep secrets are revealed about the human pysche ...

Me too. Kinda weird how it works. I think it really depends on your
expectations and knowledge.

Chad
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Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:05:59 -0700
From: "Gary Gadwa"
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: Cost of H.P.

Speaking of Cost of horse power gains, I've done all the standard stuff to
my highly modified 1991 351. Outside of a Supercharger or Turbo-charger that
is!!!
My Question is: has anyone on the list upgraded their 351 intake
manifold to the Edelbrock Performer part#3881???
This Plenum Unit for fuel injected models is a little spendy at
$499.00!!!

Any expierences, comments or reported performance gains would be
appreciated.

Gary Gadwa
Stanley, Idaho
1991 F-250 HD 351 Supercab 4x4
1996 Explorer
1931 Model A Victoria

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Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:45:49 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP, PLD V2 #10

good point about it being money paid for power OR bulletproofing. my
oliver rods are an example of this - no power gains really (other than
being long), but the extra cash was for the abuse they would take over the
long haul. some told me i was a little crazy spending the extra $$, but
everyone agreed that they are the best, or at least one of the top 3 best
without going titanium or some other exotica.

but for parts that are not highly stressed, where failure is not really a
problem or not expected to ever happen, the performance gain is the only
consideration. and on the other hand for things like gears, the quality of
the parts is important - a gear set from one company isn't going to give an
increased performnce, but it may last alot longer.

as for programs like quarter jr - the output is not acceptibly precise to
spend money based on the programs output IMHO. other info is still needed.
i use desktop dyno for quicky calculations, and also engine analyzer for
more in depth calculations. although they generally agree, analyzer
*appears* more accurate and consistant (it is a very old version though).
both programs have shown power decreases with huge cams that friends have
shown really work well on the track, better than the programs showed.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Chad Dailey[SMTP:cdailey newsguy.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 11:40 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - cost of HP, PLD V2 #10

- ---major snippage follows----

>>$500-?????
>>
>Well if I'm spending that much can I expect a double in power ? :) J/K
>but major power increases.

At this price level, I either expect tremendous increases in power
(75HP minimum) or bulletproof parts that will survive any amount of
abuse I can deliver, for an extended period of time.

>>oh, and what is expected as far as proof that a product works in the
>>marketing sence, or is that irrelevant? word of mouth? store parts dude
>>recommendations?

That's kind of tough to quantify. For less than $75, I'm willing to
experiment a little on my own. Taking the advice of a magazine or ad
can sway me in this price range. Parts monkeys can sometime do this,
but usually they don't even know how to suggestive sell. I'm willing
to play a bit. Racers are usually the best source for unknown, el
cheapo mods that really work. For more dough, I really start to ask
questions. I ask racers that have used the product in question, or
call the manufacturer directly. Places like Summit are a pretty
decent source, but they are trying to sell product, therefore a bit
suspect. I also find that certain combinations work best, and some
don't work at all. The IC engine is a complex *system*, and it is
rare when one variable dramatically affects output. Plugging info
into programs like Quarter Jr. is nice when the dollar outlay is
significant.


Chad




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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:06:31 -0800
From: Chris Bradley
Subject: FTE Perf - Steering wheel with cruise

For anyone who has been looking for, or enquiring into an aftermarket
steering wheel for the Ford's with cruise control..........
here you go. A picture is now on my registry. It is a Grant, leather
wrapped, 13", with the cruise buttons on it. Bolts right on, made just
for the Fords. Enjoy.

- --
Chris B
'85 XLT
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=134


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Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:07:42 -0800
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - Back Copy

Some weeks ago I posted a blip on the long rod-V-short rod.
Unfortunately I just crashed and lost my copy.
I checked the w/site but that archive is not up yet.
Would someone please send me a copy if you have it.
Thanks
Muel

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Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:21:38 -0800
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Back Copy

Muel,

I found 2 posts from early December I had saved. I just sent them to you.
It's all I have on the long rods subject.

Bill B.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Samuel
To: A Perf-List
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 12:11 PM
Subject: FTE Perf - Back Copy


>Some weeks ago I posted a blip on the long rod-V-short rod.
>Unfortunately I just crashed and lost my copy.
>I checked the w/site but that archive is not up yet.
>Would someone please send me a copy if you have it.
>Thanks
>Muel


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Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:24:50 -0800
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: Back Copy

Well that was quick and thanks to Bill I have the copy that I was looking
for.
Thanks Bill and to any one else that went looking.
Muel


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Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:47:08 -0800
From: Chris Bradley
Subject: FTE Perf - K & N filtercharger

For those who have been enquiring into the K & N filtercharger for their
Bronco's, I have put a picture of mine on my registry. I got the intake
hose (tbi to filter) and the washer/rad overflow bottle off of a 87+
Bronco. I also ran a cold air intake hose from the factory spot beside
the radiator to run underneath the filtercharger. The only problem with
the filtercharger is that you can really hear the whistle coming from
the TBI (2000-2500 rpm). Haven't quite figured out a solution to this
yet..........the stereo seems to cover it up most of the time. Has
anybody had this problem, and ahve they figured out how to stop the
whistling.

ps there is a side view of the Grant wheel also

- --
Chris B
'85 XLT
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=134


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Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:38:51 -0500
From: Garr&Pam
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re: Cost of H.P.

Gary Gadwa wrote:
>
> Speaking of Cost of horse power gains, I've done all the standard stuff to
> my highly modified 1991 351. Outside of a Supercharger or Turbo-charger that
> is!!!
> My Question is: has anyone on the list upgraded their 351 intake
> manifold to the Edelbrock Performer part#3881???
> This Plenum Unit for fuel injected models is a little spendy at
> $499.00!!!
>
> Any expierences, comments or reported performance gains would be
> appreciated.
>
> Gary Gadwa....


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