perf-list-digest Saturday, January 16 1999 Volume 02 : Number 010



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - for sale, dead 85 f150
FTE Perf - cost of HP
FTE Perf - Re: 5.0 Rangers in California?
Re: FTE Perf - cost of HP
Re: FTE Perf - cost of HP
Re: FTE Perf - cost of HP
RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
FTE Perf - Pulling Tires?
RE: FTE Perf - Pulling Tires?
FTE Perf - cost of HP
FTE Perf - re: FTE 80-96 - Steering wheel w/cruise
RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP
FTE Perf - cost of HP
FTE Perf - Re: FTE 80-96 - Help me please!

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Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:17:52 -0600
From: "Ralph Ward"
Subject: FTE Perf - for sale, dead 85 f150

Hope I am not violating the charter...but here goes...
I have an '85 F150, 351 HO with C6, Holley 4bbl. Lousy body (super-cab, long
bed) good rear end, new brakes/master cylinder/timing gears/chain/new water
pump/new 235/15 on rear. Unfortunately I "blew up" the engine. May have
overeved. It overheated, but was an emergency, and I had to keep driving for
6 miles, It now sounds like a coffee can full of bolts being rattled, been
sitting for 2 months. I do not have the time, inclination or funds to work
on it anymore. Probably needs to be towed, since I have the intake manifold
halfway off, is in the Fort Worth, TX area. Reasonable offers considered.
or even unreasonable!
Ralph Ward

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Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:14:30 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: FTE Perf - cost of HP

hello all,

i was just wondering to myuself, so i thought i'd get some other opinions
about the expected cost of performance...

how much would one expect to get from-

under $25

$25-$50

$50-$100

$100-$500

$500-?????

i know that the lower the starting level of performance the more gains seen
per dollar, but assuming an "average" starting performance level.

oh, and what is expected as far as proof that a product works in the
marketing sence, or is that irrelevant? word of mouth? store parts dude
recommendations?

any thoughts?

sleddog

ps-i was thinking about how certain products are marketed that *most
likely* don't do anything, or others that have stiff competition yet sell
well without marketing hype. and the price difference between very
similiar items and how they work, or if one at te same price works so much
better...

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Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:55:44 -0800
From: Vogt Family
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: 5.0 Rangers in California?

On Wed, 13 Jan 99 17:22:58 PST, don neomagic.com (Donald Paauw) wrote:
> >
> Is there a way to find out the allowable emissions for a given vehicle
> type and year? (Other than getting a smog test & seeing the printout).
>
> Also, the stock dual cats & mufflers from the '89 donor Mustang won't
> fit in my '88 4x4 unless I do some very wierd interleaving of pipes.
> My plan is to go to a 3" single system with a huge cat & a stainless
> steel motorhome muffler if it will fit (I like a quiet ride). I'm hoping
> this will be cleaner than the original and a single 3" system should
> have better flow than a twin 2" but not as much a a twin 2.5". As far
> as exhaust dynamics, I don't know what effects I'm causing but I'm pretty
> much constrained by the available space. Any comments would be appreciated.

Not much I can do for you there, you are going to have to find the
nearest Referee station and "ask the man". Don't leave any of it to
guesswork, I'd hate to see you get a nice build finished and then not be
able to drive it. You only have to go through this once, after you get
the sticker you can have it smogged anyplace.

Birken
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Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:33:18 -0600
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - cost of HP

>how much would one expect to get from-
>
>under $25
>
Initially some big power can be gained through SOME of these upgrades, but
generally I expect a little better power, but more like better efficiency,
cleaner running or neater looking ...

>$25-$50
>
Big power again from base, but moderate (to about 5hp) for an average
vehicle ... some better increases in efficiencies mostly, maybe a little
better note or throttle response....

>$50-$100
>
better increases in hp no matter what the base is .. probably in the 5-10,
maybe more.

>$100-$500
>
Some much better notes from the exhaust as power increases are quite
dramatic ... especially for older engines.


>$500-?????
>
Well if I'm spending that much can I expect a double in power ? :) J/K
but major power increases.


>oh, and what is expected as far as proof that a product works in the
>marketing sence, or is that irrelevant? word of mouth? store parts dude
>recommendations?
>
That's a good question, and I've kind of wondered how others judged this
stuff. For it to sell me, well people who have tried it have to swear by
it (not just idiots either, but that's a judgement call on your part :)
also usually helps if the person telling me it works has some prior
knowledge or experience with other products. A 16yr old kid isn't going to
convince me that the product works unless he really knows what he's talkin
about and has lived race cars his whole life, even then its shady. On the
other side an older guy who's been workin on engines for quite some time
(like my g.f.'s dad), I'll take what he has to say pretty seriously.
Obviously this isn't quite right, but usually works around here.

>any thoughts?
>
Just thinkin that generally the appearance of technology in the part will
sell people on it. It is also more expensive (generally) to upgrade a new
"high tech" engine or an old out of production engine, than the more common
5.0's and other things that seem to grow on trees (my 4.6 mustang vs. 390
truck are more expensive it seems like). But also that if a part can pull
off the image of high technology design, then people will tend to think its
better. No dissin on anyone who may have come to that conclusion before, I
know I have, but still its just something people don't think about all the
time.

>ps-i was thinking about how certain products are marketed that *most
>likely* don't do anything, or others that have stiff competition yet sell
>well without marketing hype. and the price difference between very
>similiar items and how they work, or if one at te same price works so much
>better...
>
good question, always wondered this, but never knew how to go about it ...
lemme know what deep secrets are revealed about the human pysche ...

Bill
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Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:12:27 -0500
From: Garr&Pam
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Sleddog wrote:
>
> hello all,
>
> i was just wondering to myuself, so i thought i'd get some other opinions
> about the expected cost of performance...
>
> how much would one expect to get from-
>
> under $25

2-3hp K&N air filter
>
> $25-$50

Maybe a couple from a good set of plugs like NGK...or a tornado((hehe))

>
> $50-$100

new coil(MSD), high flow muffler, synthetics...oil, trans fluid, rear
differential 2-5hp
>
> $100-$500

comuter chip burned on a dyno(no mail order junk)5-10hp cat back exhaust
5-10 maybe more depending on application, off road h or x pipe 10 to 15,
new injectors with better spray pattern(or performance carb for you non
EFI guys) new ignition system maybe 10hp, bigger throttle bodies 5hp
intake spacer 2-3hp, roller rockers 10-15hp, cam hp ratings will very
greatly depending on cam choice.
>
> $500-?????

Supercharger(Eaton and Whipplecharger gets my vote, but the fastest
Lightnings Vortechs...the two I mentioned don't make a kit for the
Lightning though) again will vary greatly depending on application and
manufacturer, ported and polished heads depends on how much porting you
do! Stroker kit, nitrous, there are alot of things you can do with no
limit on the money! Turbine engines.....I can hear Tim Allen now!!
>
> i know that the lower the starting level of performance the more gains seen
> per dollar, but assuming an "average" starting performance level.
>
> oh, and what is expected as far as proof that a product works in the
> marketing sence, or is that irrelevant? word of mouth? store parts dude
> recommendations?
>
> any thoughts?
>
> sleddog
>
> ps-i was thinking about how certain products are marketed that *most
> likely* don't do anything, or others that have stiff competition yet sell
> well without marketing hype. and the price difference between very
> similiar items and how they work, or if one at te same price works so much
> better...

Chris
94 Lightning #381
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:04:22 -0500
From: Tim Turner
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Just toughts/opinions of course..

Sleddog wrote:
>
> hello all,
>
> i was just wondering to myuself, so i thought i'd get some other opinions
> about the expected cost of performance...
>
> how much would one expect to get from-
>
> under $25 $100-$500

Nothing really 'noticeable'; some gains in MPG or a few ticks of the
watch but nothing that would throw you into the seat like an old
big-block.

> $500-?????

Mostly ???? :-) Every gain is worthwhile, but also has it's price; not
only $$ but longevity of the engine. I'm debating some mods during the
rebuild of my tired 2.8 and still undecided how far to go.

> oh, and what is expected as far as proof that a product works in the
> marketing sence, or is that irrelevant? word of mouth? store parts dude
> recommendations?

Ouch.. probably racers for *real* information; I know people that
condemn product X and people that swear by it. Ask 10 people what the
best oil is and you'll probably get 8 conflicting answers; so too will
performance part questions. Go with what's working for the circle you
hang with, but dont be afraid to experiment! :-)

TT
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:16:17 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

bill,

i think you have revealed some of those deep secrets in your post...thanks for the reply

sleddog

- ----------
From: William S Hart[SMTP:wish iastate.edu]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 5:33 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - cost of HP


>ps-i was thinking about how certain products are marketed that *most
>likely* don't do anything, or others that have stiff competition yet sell
>well without marketing hype. and the price difference between very
>similiar items and how they work, or if one at te same price works so much
>better...
>
good question, always wondered this, but never knew how to go about it ...
lemme know what deep secrets are revealed about the human pysche ...

Bill



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 05:22:22 PST
From: "Doug Ridder"
Subject: FTE Perf - Pulling Tires?

I have a longshot question that you all may be able to help me with. I =
am looking for a new set of tires for my modified pulling truck -- you =
know something that will give me an unfair but legal advantage! We are =
currently allowed to run a bared style tire like the goodyear terra tire =
or the Firestone 23 degree and we can modify the tread pattern as much =
as we want. The only real limits as they are stated in the rules are no =
larger than 31 x 15.5 x 15 and we are not allowed to run the custom manuf=
actured puling tires like the Dick Cepek giant puller or a Chevron.

I am looking for anything that is not a custom pulling tire that is close=
to the maximum tire tire size. It could be anything from a racing slick=
to some kind of construction type tire to what ever the minds can think =
of. I will custom cut a lug pattern to suit what I want, as long as ther=
e is a good thick carcus on the tire to cut it from.

Also the real problem with the goodyears and the firestones is that they =
are a very soft tire and don't bite very hard so the harder the tire the =
better.

I would appreciate any ideas that you have or any off the wall companies =
that you might know about that I could call.

Thanks Doug

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:00:23 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Pulling Tires?

i never followed thru since i must run a DOT tire on almost every track,
but there appears to be a wide range of selections for the utility tires.
tires such as those used on the farm implements and other things such as
the big hydraulic self propelled platforms (what are they called?),
construction equipment, etc.

i think cooper makes many of them, as well as general. the ones i have
seen appear to be hard compound thick casing but lower pressure tires with
anything from a grooved pattern to a double or triple chevron pattern.
tire sizes i do not know. i remember looking at a picture of a bunch of
(general i think) tires and thinking there where some really good looking
treads. rim size unknown.

have you considered retreads? i ran a custom set of retreads for a long
time. a design similiar to the goodyear terra. maybe someone can put a
"slick" on a carcuss for you to cut your treads.

also, my cousin ran last year a set of super swamper boggers. you know,
the ones with only bars. first run they grabed very hard, but generated a
bit of a fast bounce in the back (he ran them only in back, cuts in front)
on a track that was loose on top, very hard on bottom. he dug some long
trenches with them but they took alot of power.

next run they where "relieved". just a simple back cut, but still the full
tread depth. they worked much better, but still had an ratcheting
bouncyness to them. later, reducing tread depth the bounce was going away
and they bit harder without digging down as much. i think they have alot
of potential even though they are an expensive tire to cut up just to try
them. i don't know if they come that small. 31" is very small. we have
been finding that if total gear ratio is about the same, larger diameter
tires work better. we have no dia limit, but a width limit of 12.5. most
popular size appears to be 33 to 36X12.50.

BFG tires have a good carcuss for cutting as well as some of the off brands
like kelly. i have a set of 33x(wide) kelly tires that have a simple zig
zag groove tread. a very street oriented tire, but they did grip on hard
tracks and they have a carcuss that looks good enuff to cut like crazy.
they have a very square profile too, putting down a full footprint at
almost any pressure.

to bad 4 wheeler tires can't take the abuse...:)

sleddog

- ----------
From: Doug Ridder[SMTP:ridder socket.net]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:22 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Pulling Tires?

I have a longshot question that you all may be able to help me with. I am
looking for a new set of tires for my modified pulling truck -- you know
something that will give me an unfair but legal advantage! We are
currently allowed to run a bared style tire like the goodyear terra tire or
the Firestone 23 degree and we can modify the tread pattern as much as we
want. The only real limits as they are stated in the rules are no larger
than 31 x 15.5 x 15 and we are not allowed to run the custom manufactured
puling tires like the Dick Cepek giant puller or a Chevron.

I am looking for anything that is not a custom pulling tire that is close
to the maximum tire tire size. It could be anything from a racing slick to
some kind of construction type tire to what ever the minds can think of. I
will custom cut a lug pattern to suit what I want, as long as there is a
good thick carcus on the tire to cut it from.

Also the real problem with the goodyears and the firestones is that they
are a very soft tire and don't bite very hard so the harder the tire the
better.

I would appreciate any ideas that you have or any off the wall companies
that you might know about that I could call.

Thanks Doug





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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:52:39 -0800
From: George
Subject: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Sleddog wrote:
>
> hello all,
>
> i was just wondering to myuself, so i thought i'd get some other opinions
> about the expected cost of performance...
>
> how much would one expect to get from-
>
> under $25 $100-$500

We're talking performance, not emissions legislated stuff? Pull trucks,
road racers, straight line racers or drivers? My suggestions would be
focused on the 385 series with final C/R of 9.5:1, new rebuild or decent
running engine of basically stock specs and parts with a dual exhaust
system as a base. I'd say, without dyno slips, that would be a 300HP base.

$100 - Cam and lifters. A minimum of 25HP.

Next $400 - Manifold and carb. Another 25HP.

Now if you want to talk about applying $500 to an early 11.3:1 C/R
non-SCJ/CJ engine, the cost per gained HP would be lower. An SVO block and
hemi heads with all the goodies wouldn't notice $500. Sleddog, you do offer
some thoughts with almost endless possibilities.

George Miller




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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:13:23 -0800
From: Chris Bradley
Subject: FTE Perf - re: FTE 80-96 - Steering wheel w/cruise

Steve,
Grant makes one specifically for the Ford cruise controls. I got
one, and I love it.
If you need a part #, let me know. If you wasnt to see what it looks
like, I think I have a picture a can put on my registry, let me know.

- --
Chris B
'85 XLT
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.thewowfactor.com/bigbroncos/detail.cfm?detailid=134


Does anyone know of a steering wheel producer that offers an adapter or
extra assembly for the cruise control.

Steve Randa
'84 F150

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Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:21:43 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - cost of HP

was wondering mostly about the way products are marketed and why people buy
one thing over another at the low price ranges. once over $3,000 or so, i
can understand it more - it makes more sense why one item is chosen over
the other.

sleddog

- ----------
From: George[SMTP:mega55 lv.rmci.net]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 10:52 PM
To: Ford Truck Performance List (E-mail)
Subject: FTE Perf - cost of HP

We're talking performance, not emissions legislated stuff? Pull trucks,
road racers, straight line racers or drivers? My suggestions would be
focused on the 385 series with final C/R of 9.5:1, new rebuild or decent
running engine of basically stock specs and parts with a dual exhaust
system as a base. I'd say, without dyno slips, that would be a 300HP base.

$100 - Cam and lifters. A minimum of 25HP.

Next $400 - Manifold and carb. Another 25HP.

Now if you want to talk about applying $500 to an early 11.3:1 C/R
non-SCJ/CJ engine, the cost per gained HP would be lower. An SVO block and
hemi heads with all the goodies wouldn't notice $500. Sleddog, you do offer
some thoughts with almost endless possibilities.

George Miller






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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:43:38 -0800
From: George
Subject: FTE Perf - cost of HP

Marketing. In every formal business plan you'll find a marketing budget. As
most business plans are structured to available capital, the marketing
budget must be capable of recovering administrative, manufacturing and
marketing costs and provide a return on the investment capital. What does
it take to make a 'high performance' article the best seller? There are
plenty of manufacturers out there, most with credentials from the early
days of hot rodding and state of the art CNC manufacturing equipment. I
doubt that many have the resources (budget) of an Edelbrock or K&N, which
allows them to advertise in virtually every enthusiast publication, achieve
application articles in those publications where they spend heavy
advertising gold, attend every trade/distributor show and maintain cost
effective manufacturing abilities to meet defined objectives. That's
traditional brand marketing.

New or innovative products are normally developed by individuals or well
capitalized development groups, sold through word of mouth, connections and
hustle until the product reaches a consistent level of acceptability and
then sold to or financed for market expansion by a company with the
resources to spend the big bucks. Investors in one form or another.

You need a product, proven benefits, some connections, lots of energy and
eventual access to money in order to seriously compete in the low margin
businesses. There are exceptions but not many. Sorry for the ramble.

George Miller


was wondering mostly about the way products are marketed and why people buy
one thing over another at the low price ranges. once over $3,000 or so, i
can understand it more - it makes more sense why one item is chosen over
the other.

sleddog


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:17:21 EST....


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