perf-list-digest Tuesday, December 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 179



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - Expedition vs Suburban
FTE Perf - valve sizes
FTE Perf - Sprags for C6
Re: FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition
Re: FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition
FTE Perf - Detroit Locker
FTE Perf - 429-460 heads
FTE Perf - Re: S'burb vs. Expedition >
RE: FTE Perf - Detroit Locker
RE: FTE Perf - 429-460 heads
FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition
Re: FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition
Re: FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition
FTE Perf - 460 info!!!

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:19:06 -0500
From: "J. A. Knapper"
Subject: FTE Perf - Expedition vs Suburban

>The Expedition was designed as competition for the Tahoe, not the
>Suburban. There is a new SUV based on the new line of Super Duty trucks
>due out sometime in the next year, possibly as a 2000 model. The reason
>that the Expedition is limited to the 5.4 is that the frame/suspension
>was never designed for the larger engines. The new truck (Excursion I
>believe) will be available with the 6.8l and the 7.3 diesel. I'm told
>that for a size comparison park an Expedition next to an Explorer. Now
>imagine a truck as much bigger than the Expediton than the Expedition is
>bigger than the Explorer.
>I'm in the process of building a 390 for my 68 F100, I plan on running
>390 GT heads. Because the exhuast manifold bolt pattern is different
>than the stock heads, most truck headers won't bolt on. Can anyone
>recommend a good make that'll bolt on to 390 GT heads in a pickup?
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:51:20 -0500
From: am14 daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: FTE Perf - valve sizes

Bill writes: >>Do 360's and 390's have the same valve sizes in them ? I
never measured the 360's so I can't compare them with the 390's I've
gotten.

I've never compared them, but have been led to believe that they are the
same heads, therefore the same valves. Chiltons or such should confirm
this.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:05:57 -0500
From: am14 daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Sprags for C6

Chris Samuels writes: >>I dont realy know. Im going buy what was stated in
a haynes techbook, I have no first hand knowledge of rebuilding a c-6
although I did use it to rebuild my c-4 first time doing this wouldn't like
to try again :-) .It seems to be saying that there are 3 versions for a c-6
does not tell which year or model they come out of.

I stand corrected.
Live and learn.

Azie
Ardmore, Al.


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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:41:55 -0600
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition

>You know what, I hate to admit but i think ford is starting to go soft.
>=-( Sure their heavy duty pickups are still top of the line, but the
>expedition cant stand up to the suburban. I have talked to my neighbor
>mustang, hasnt been able to stand up to the camaro untill recently, but
>i hear the new 4.6 in the cobra is supposed to be pretty strong. Anyway,
>I too am going to miss the 460, maybe Ford will see their mistake and
>bring up another big cube engine.
>
I read this all the time on the Mustang groups, and frankly I'm tired of
it. People keep whining about Ford losing the power battle, but they're
still selling twice as many 'stangs as Camaro/Firebirds .... 60% of which
are V6's ... that means 40% of production is split between the Cobra and GT
... to most marketing people that means that the public in general doesn't
want the big power motors and high speed, just the image. I don't know how
the truck numbers work, but I have a hunch they're similar. Personally I
hate the Extended cab/short bed trucks that have become so popular.
They're a pain to drive, and a sacrafice in everything (rear seat room ...
bed length ... etc.), but everyone around here seems to want one, or have
one on order. Ford, like every other successful company is going to have
to produce what the consumer wants, not what a select group wants. Guess I
happen to be in that higher powered group on both counts (Mustangs and
Trucks), so they will always leave us wanting more, which we can get
through SVO and aftermarket manufacturers. Besides, we wouldn't all want
to buy the same truck would we ? Isn't that what makes this group so much
fun, bein able to hop up our trucks to suit our needs and wants ?

I've also seen much reference to quality as the reason that most of the
Cobra/GT owners are going with the Mustang. I've never looked, but they
say that the Camaro/Firechicken has just a cheap plastic looking interior.
I always thought the Mustang's had that, so I'm afraid to look at the
F-body's. Also if they're buying because of the quality, and the Mustang
is admittedly the lowest quality product, what does that say about the
other cars ????

Sorry I'll get off my soapbox now ....


Just my 2cents

Bill

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:45:57 -0600
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition

>The Ch#^y big-block has the exhaust ports in the right place.

That's right, I always think 350 when I think Chevy ... my bad (actually I
think 327, then think, no wait, its 350 now...:)



Actually
>I think the small block went that way also in its last years of
>production. The small block is now gone I believe.

The 350 kept the goofy exhaust porting, and has now been replaced by a 347
engine with normal exhausting. Kind of interesting they claim they
increased efficiency by changing the exhaust ports, but didn't think they'd
gain enough by going to over head cam, so they went with aluminum pushrods
instead ... thought that was odd ...

Also interesting, the Corvette was the first (I believe) to sport the new
347 with aluminum this and that in 1997 ... 40 years earlier the Pontiac
Bonneville was the first to sport fuel injection on a .... you guessed it
347 .... how's that for ironic ?

Sorry for the non-Ford, but thought it was pretty cool history ...

Bill
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:27:55 -0800
From: "Tom Ewing"
Subject: FTE Perf - Detroit Locker

Hi all. I'm building a 58F100 for the street/strip. It currently has a
429,C-6, and Dana 44. I picked up 9inch Ford 31 spline rear
assembly at the salvage yard, and I was planning at some point
in time on buying a complete new center section with a Detroit
Locker and the gearing of my choice. Thus just using the existing
housing, brakes, axles. But, a drag racing friend of mine just replaced
the Detroit Locker in his 11sec quarter mile car with a spool, and
wants to sell the locker. This guy is great at buying cheap and selling
high, so I'm somewhat leary of being his next candidate for success,
but if over time I could install his locker in the unit I have and then
over time worry about changing gear ratios for the strip if need be.
I got the rear out of a 73 Ford half ton with and automatic, and I
haven't removed the center section yet, but I can kinda figure on
what the gear ratio will be. I've never disassembled one of these
3rd members, but I would guess with a book and or video I'd be
willing to give it a try. My concern is how well will the existing ring
and pinion hold up to my estimated 450-500hp? The donor truck
looked pretty beat, and when I pull the center section of course I
can visually give it a good going over. I believe my friend had the
work on the rear done and probably knows more than me about
the mechanics involved, but I'm not sure he's correct in saying that
he thinks my 73 9inch carrier will need to be replaced if I use his
locker? If I need to buy a seperate carrier too, it seems to me
I 'd be better off just saving for the entire center section after
market complete with a locker new ring, etc for probably about
$900? He told me how many passes he has on the unit. I think
he said maybe 75? He eventually twisted off the pinion( I guess)
if I understand him correctly, and that's why he went to a spool.
This is a trailered 11sec 55 Chevy 454, so there's no street mileage
wear, but just the racing. I looked at the Locker-it looks OK, but what
can I see by just looking? They look pretty durable. He thinks its
probably just fine, and would work well for me. I thought I'd ask
all of you, because I'm on a budget and I'm not opposed to using
used parts if it makes sense. But obviously I don't want to waste my
time and money on something that just won't hold up satisfactorily.
He's a little unsure about the price, but he's talking like he'd like to
have around $250 for the used unit. Seems kinda pricey to me, but
maybe I'm wrong. What do you think?
Tom
All grown up. Still plays with trucks.

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:33:45 -0600
From: "Mike Morton "
Subject: FTE Perf - 429-460 heads

Has anyone put the large valves from the SCJ into the smogger heads? I have
a set I want to play with and am in the process of looking to buy the
cutters needed to cut the heads for hardened seats and cut the bowls for the
larger valves. If everything goes okay then will machine them for screw in
studs and finish up anything else needed. Just looking for pros and cons.
Thanks,
Merry Christmas
Mike Morton
mmorto wgc.woodward.com
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:11:10 -0500
From: lordjanusz juno.com (Paul M Radecki)
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: S'burb vs. Expedition >

>From: Gear Guru[SMTP:a4wheelin_mudder hotmail.com]
>Anyway,
>I too am going to miss the 460, maybe Ford will see their mistake and
>bring up another big cube engine.
>
>Just my opinion
>AZ Eric

Like maybe weld two Duratech blocks together and make a modular V-12?
Yipes.
Now, where did I put that Soap Box...ah.
Don't be too hard on the "luxury sport-ute" crowd, guys. At least
they're buying American-made trucks instead of Saabs, Bimmers, and Lexii.
Besides, the more happy truck owners there are out there the less likely
Congress will allow Nader, AlGore, and the greenies to further castrate
our beloved American icons. As if the CAFE and smog-sniffer laws weren't
intrusive enough, now they want to make trucks smaller, lighter, and
lower so that they won't do as much damage to little cars when they
collide. Also on the agenda are laws to make trucks conform to all the
same emissions, mileage, and crashworthiness standards as cars, and to
force automakers to develop, build and sell "zero-emission" vehicles that
nobody wants. Worst of all, there are plans to equip all vehicles with a
Federally Mandated *transmitter* attached to your Federally Mandated
non-reprogrammable OBD computer which will broadcast your vehicle's speed
and emissions compliance to any cop who carries a receiver. Said cop can
then TURN OFF YOUR ENGINE by REMOTE CONTROL if you are (or have ever
been) in violation. Scary. This is your government helping you.
I'm sure Ford would love to sell us the stripped, overpowered F-series
work trucks we want, but thanks to CAFE they can only build a certain
number of trucks per year. Which customer would you choose, a rich
yuppie who buys a new $40,000 Navigator every few years and brings it in
to the service department every time it needs a lightbulb changed, or a
junkyard dog like many of us who wants a basic truck he can fix all by
himself and will keep until it resembles a rusty ball of duct tape and
baling wire? Until Uncle Sam allows Ford to build and sell as many and
whatever kinds of vehicles they choose to, we'll just have to live with
the weenie engines and jellybean styling and hope that the supply of old
trucks and parts doesn't dry up too fast.

lordjanusz juno.com
'94 refrigerator white 300ci 5-speed no cloth seats no tape deck no
carpet no power windows no cruise control no chrome F-150 XL all-American
Ford work truck!

___________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:08:59 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Detroit Locker

the locker i imagine would be good after the use it has had, but then again
if the pinion and ring broke there most likely is some crap left in there
that may have done some unseen damage.

for a good unit the price is not too bad, but could be better. the actual
work you could do i am sure with a book or visde or such.

i myself would rather buy a new unit (and my pull truck is almost all used
parts!) but price is always the biggest consideration in the comparison -
the price in the short and the long run. used parts are almost always a
gamble.

i know this wasn't much help, but....

sleddog

- ----------
From: Tom Ewing[SMTP:ewing napanet.net]
Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 10:27 AM
To: Performance Ford Trucks
Subject: FTE Perf - Detroit Locker

Hi all. I'm building a 58F100 for the street/strip. It currently has a
429,C-6, and Dana 44. I picked up 9inch Ford 31 spline rear
assembly at the salvage yard, and I was planning at some point
in time on buying a complete new center section with a Detroit
Locker and the gearing of my choice. Thus just using the existing
housing, brakes, axles. But, a drag racing friend of mine just replaced
the Detroit Locker in his 11sec quarter mile car with a spool, and
wants to sell the locker. This guy is great at buying cheap and selling
high, so I'm somewhat leary of being his next candidate for success,
But obviously I don't want to waste my
snipped------------
time and money on something that just won't hold up satisfactorily.
He's a little unsure about the price, but he's talking like he'd like to
have around $250 for the used unit. Seems kinda pricey to me, but
maybe I'm wrong. What do you think?
Tom
All grown up. Still plays with trucks.





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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:09:43 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - 429-460 heads

cons-cost
pros-performance

sleddog

- ----------
From: Mike Morton [SMTP:mmorto wgc.woodward.com]
Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 12:33 PM
To: 'perf-list'
Subject: FTE Perf - 429-460 heads

Has anyone put the large valves from the SCJ into the smogger heads? I have
a set I want to play with and am in the process of looking to buy the
cutters needed to cut the heads for hardened seats and cut the bowls for the
larger valves. If everything goes okay then will machine them for screw in
studs and finish up anything else needed. Just looking for pros and cons.
Thanks,
Merry Christmas
Mike Morton
mmorto wgc.woodward.com
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:15:47 -0800
From: Vogt Family
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:40:57 MST, "Gear Guru"
wrote:
>
> You know what, I hate to admit but i think ford is starting to go soft.
> =-( Sure their heavy duty pickups are still top of the line, but the
> expedition cant stand up to the suburban. I have talked to my neighbor
> who is a border patroll agent and he would much rather drive a C# vy
> suburban than a Expedition any day, he says they are city oriented
> people haulers. Dont get me wrong, I will be a die hard ford fan untill
> the day i die, but Ford may have seen its better days. Look at the
> mustang, hasnt been able to stand up to the camaro untill recently, but
> i hear the new 4.6 in the cobra is supposed to be pretty strong. Anyway,
> I too am going to miss the 460, maybe Ford will see their mistake and
> bring up another big cube engine.

You know, after I wrote what you are referring to, I heard a rumor of a
new V12 engine. Can't even remember the manufactuer. A shade of things
to come?

Birken
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:41:08 -0600
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition

>You know, after I wrote what you are referring to, I heard a rumor of a
>new V12 engine. Can't even remember the manufactuer. A shade of things
>to come?

Someone mentioned 2 Duratech V-6's for a V-12 ... well I'm sure you've seen
the Ford Indigo and GT-90's ... both of those have 2 V-6's to form their
V-12 ... also rumors of a V-12 for the Excursion when it comes out ...

Bill
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:39:46 EST
From: JUMPINFORD AOL.COM
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re: Suburban vs. Expedition

In a message dated 12/21/98 12:14:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, vogt oro.net
writes:


>>


Ford developed a V-12 about 2 or 3 years ago for the concept car Indigo. It
was an open top roadster to go head to head with the Prowler. I would have
loved to have seen this car go into production, maybe even conned a dealer
into a test drive also VW made a V-12 by splicing together 2 of their
VR6's. But that was also for another concept car, I believe it was called the
W-12. Oh well. Lots of new toys comin out, wish I had more money.

Darrell Duggan
74 F-350 "Tweety"
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:34:18 EST
From: BScott5766 AOL.COM
Subject: FTE Perf - 460 info!!!

Hi, my name is Brian, and I am a newcomer to the lists. I need some
information from others that have had experience with the 460 V-8. My brother
has a '78 F-100 that we are about to do a frame off of. It has the 302 and
C-6, which is allright, but the truck will be used a lot for hauling our car
trailer to shows and races, but sometimes for daily transportation also.
Therefore we are in need of a lot more torque. We have the opportunity to
acquire a good 460 for a reasonable price, but don't really know the specs
others are getting. What kind of mileage, with what compression ratio, cam,....

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