perf-list-digest Thursday, December 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 167



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
To unsubscribe, send email to:
majordomo ford-trucks.com
with the words "unsubscribe perf-list-digest" in the body of the
message.
=======================================================================
In this issue:

FTE Perf - 429 Id Numbers
Re: FTE Perf - 514 puller engine - doug
Re: FTE Perf - Re More Long Rod
Re: FTE Perf - 429 Id Numbers
FTE Perf - C6
RE: FTE Perf - 429 Id Numbers
RE: FTE Perf - Re More Long Rod
FTE Perf - ADMIN: Chat
RE: FTE Perf - 429 project
FTE Perf - Long rods and more.

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:23:44 -0800
From: "O'Connell, Dennis M"
Subject: FTE Perf - 429 Id Numbers

Hi all,

Does anyone out there know where the id numbers are on the block of a 429.
I believe I have a 70 or 71, but I wanted to verify it with the stamped
numbers. Also, do you know what the compression ratios were for those
years.

thanks for your help.

Dennis
55 F100
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 13:42:57 PST
From: "Doug Ridder"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 514 puller engine - doug

We are running a 4.47 bore also with a 4.10 offset ground crank. Aluminu=
m Childs and ablert 6.9 long rods, Ross custom pistons with 14.5 to 1 com=
pression. I have to run Iron heads and I happened to find a set of blue =
thunder iron heads with the large rectangular exhaust ports. We run a =
2.3" intake valve and a 1.80" tulip exhaust. The heads are flowing arrou=
nd 380 cfm on the intake and approximately 76% on the exhaust. My machin=
ist is working on the flow bench now to try to see if we can get any more=
. We are trying some new intake and header designs. The carb is a 1340 =
cfm dominator. The cam ----- well --- auh--- its and ultradyne! (nuff =
said). We are just guessing on the horsepower right know but we are prob=
ably going to the dyno after we get the new configuration put together.

The crank I had was an cheap 2Y that I got in a trade for some old FE par=
ts. We had it checked out ahead of time and it was ok. At the second =
to the last run of the season the oil pressure dropped to less that 20 =
lbs after investigating we found out the the crank acctually cracked just=
enough to through everything out of wack. It never acctually broke into=
two pieces ( thank God ).

I live in central missouri and most of the pulling we do is in state howe=
ver, we run with Tri-state truck pullers some and venture out into Iowa =
and Illnois on occassion. We may do some pulling with Outlaw next year =
depending on how the rules come out.

Where are you from? What kind of rules do you have? what kind of tires =
do you use? Tell me more about your motor. I tried to pull up your web =
page and couldn't get in. It may just be this old wore out piece of juck=
computer. It runs like a C***y.

- ----------
>
> oh yeh! another BB ford puller!
>
> my block the caps walked at lower rpm than that for the last owner, wit=
h a
> steel crank. a friends SVO block also experienced cap walk, though at =
what
> rpm we don't know, it did turn over 9000 often enuff.
>
> i run a cast crank, also a D1VE block. mine is offset ground to 4.15 =


> stroke with a 4.47 bore.
>
> which BT heads you have? CR? alum or steel rods? how the crank break=
? i
> am making now maybe 700-750 hp, and with my new carb should be up to =
750+
> no problem. what kind size cam?
>
> i hope to not bust my parts up. tell me more about your engine - i lov=
e
> talking engines and benchracing. where are youfrom - where do you pull=
?
>
> sleddog
>
> ----------
> From: Doug Ridder[SMTP:ridder socket.net]
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 10:35 AM
> To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 429 project
>
> I run a 514 at 8400 rpms with a DIVE stock block. We believe it makes =

> something over 800 hp with bluethunder heads on gas. After one season =
of
> pulling we broke the cast crank and had some main cap walking on the =
#2 and
> #4 main caps. I believe the block will take the punishment but we are =

> going to install 4 bolt main caps from engine systems and try one of =
the
> new cast steel cranks for next year. our old crank was the weakest sto=
ck
> crank available (2Y). they say the 3Y cranks are better, we learned =
the
> hard way. If your not going with big cubes consider a 429 steel truck =

> crank. They can be offset ground to a 4.89 stroke with big C****y rod =

> journals and should be able to handle all the power you can put in a =

> naturally aspirated motor.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> =3D=3D FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq=
.html


== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:50:23 -0600
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re More Long Rod

>Until then: 79=B0 ATDC is not max. Intake Charge Velocity it is Max Piston
>Velocity.
>
It would follow logically that max intake charge velocity will occur
slightly after this, since there will be inertial lag on the intake charge=
...

>What can I say??
>
Whatever you want, just be prepared for rebuttal ;)


Just my 2cents

Bill

Auto Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/cars.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Trucks/truck.html
'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Cars/mustang.html
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:55:17 -0600
From: William S Hart
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 429 Id Numbers

>Does anyone out there know where the id numbers are on the block of a 429.
>I believe I have a 70 or 71, but I wanted to verify it with the stamped
>numbers. Also, do you know what the compression ratios were for those
>years.
>
It should be stamped in the lifter valley somewhere ... but just because
its a 70 number, doesn't mean the block wasn't made in 71, unless there
were changes there wouldn't be a different casting number. A fer-instance
is the 76 390 I just picked up, the block was a 74 (D4TE) number, and the
heads were 72 part numbers (D2...). Oh yeah, the decade is D(for 70),
followed by the year digit, so D4 is 74, C9 is 69, E7 is 87 ... etc...


I'm not familiar with the 429/460 motors, so I don't really know what
changes could be there. But I hope this helps.


Just my 2cents

Bill

Auto Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/cars.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Trucks/truck.html
'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Cars/mustang.html
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 08:36:31 -0800
From: Vogt Family
Subject: FTE Perf - C6

There was someone I was going to tell about the governor on my C6.
Well, I did the last parts of the shift kit yesterday. It involved
unbolting the governor (which can be done on the vehicle with the
extension housing removed, or transfer case) and sliding it off the back
of the shaft where I cleaned it up and installed different springs.
Depending on your particular shift kit there may also be weight added to
the auxilliary valve and/or the main valve modified by grinding.

Birken
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:21:35 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - 429 Id Numbers

d0ve is '70
d1ve is '71

stanped on side of block - look closely as sometimes numbers or letters are
upside down, but in correct order. there may have been some dive's sold in
72, but they are still a 71 block.

can't remember CR, but 68-69 was 11.5:1 and after 74 or so it was under 9:1

sleddog

- ----------
From: William S Hart[SMTP:wish iastate.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:55 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 429 Id Numbers

>Does anyone out there know where the id numbers are on the block of a 429.
>I believe I have a 70 or 71, but I wanted to verify it with the stamped
>numbers. Also, do you know what the compression ratios were for those
>years.
>
It should be stamped in the lifter valley somewhere ... but just because
its a 70 number, doesn't mean the block wasn't made in 71, unless there
were changes there wouldn't be a different casting number. A fer-instance
is the 76 390 I just picked up, the block was a 74 (D4TE) number, and the
heads were 72 part numbers (D2...). Oh yeah, the decade is D(for 70),
followed by the year digit, so D4 is 74, C9 is 69, E7 is 87 ... etc...


I'm not familiar with the 429/460 motors, so I don't really know what
changes could be there. But I hope this helps.


Just my 2cents

Bill

Auto Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/cars.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Trucks/truck.html
'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Cars/mustang.html
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html




== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:42:54 -0500
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Re More Long Rod

well, it is strongly suggested that for a high performance engine you
rethink that. in a stock engine with a restrictive non-scavenging exhaust
this may be so, but when the headers are properly design, the intake charge
can be moving into the chamber at a very high rate, when the intake valve
is still opening. the exhaust pulse can create intake movement by
something like 500% as much as the piston itself moving down the bore.

in this situation i would think that max intake charge velocity in the
intake port would be right around the max. intake valve lift, maybe before,
or maybe after some, but in that general area.

maximum valve lift on a mild cam will occur before max piston speed in
general. on a more radical cam, max intake valve lift will generally be
after max piston speed. this is assuming a fairly symetrical lode profile
of course, and a straight up cam. retarding cam will obviously change that
some.

also, maximum piston velocity and location changes with different rod
ratios and pin offsets.

i think this is one reason people like david vizard choose things like rod
length and stroke and intake and pistons *before* choosing a cam, as the
cam choice means choosing valve events that work best with the engine
combination. of course, people like that know and understand these things
far better than i do...

i also think, but have no evidance to support this, that the velocity thu
the port, and thru the valve opening are not directly related over the
duration of the timing events. for example, the exhasut vavle may see a
higher speed thru the valve than thru the port at valve opening, but at
full valve lift the port velocity may be higher. this of course would mean
that the effective valve curtain is larger than the port area, which is
common on many ford engines with big cams i think. the inertial timing if
the intake may also create a non direct relationship on the intake side.
not all the intake mass flows at the same time, or even in the same
direction.

sleddog



- ----------
From: William S Hart[SMTP:wish iastate.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:50 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re More Long Rod

>Until then: 79? ATDC is not max. Intake Charge Velocity it is Max Piston
>Velocity.
>
It would follow logically that max intake charge velocity will occur
slightly after this, since there will be inertial lag on the intake charge
...

>What can I say??
>
Whatever you want, just be prepared for rebuttal ;)


Just my 2cents

Bill

Auto Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/cars.html
'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Trucks/truck.html
'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Cars/mustang.html




== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:00:16 -0500
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE Perf - ADMIN: Chat

Notes on our web chat:

1. Windows95-Netscape will sometimes beep in versions prior to
4.0b3 when you hit the enter key.

2. Unfortunately, the implementation of earlier (pre 4.0) Java
on the Macintosh browsers leaves a lot to be desired. These
Macintosh versions of Netscape have some serious memory
problems. An article discussing some of the problems with
these versions can be found at:

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.news.com/Rumormill/Archives/rum10_11_96.html

Newer versions should work, but may have performance problems.

3. AOL uses a proxy server to access the Internet. The vast
majority of ISPs don't. With a proxy server, you are not
connected directly to the Internet. Chat will not work
with many proxy servers (including AOL's) and some
firewalls.

4. For PCs: To use it, you must be running Internet Explorer
3.0 (or later) or Netscape Navigator 3.0 (or later), or
another Java-enabled browser. For best results, we highly
recommend Internet Explorer 3.02 and Netscape 3.01, both
of which contain crucial bug fixes over their 3.0 versions.

5. Netscape Navigator 3.0 users (Standard or Gold versions):
You may very well experience a browser crash. This is due
to a memory leak problem in the Navigator software -- not
the Java code. We recommend upgrading to at least version
3.01.

6. Netscape 3.x browsers on Linux have major Java problems.

7. Sometimes Internet Explorer 4 acts flakey (crashes).

8. When the telnet version is released (soon), you can use
telnet to chat instead of your browser. This may work
with AOL too.

9. If AOL does not work with telnet, we may consider adding
HTML CGI chat. This option will only be available if we
can afford to upgrade our server because HTML CGI chat
places an enormous load on the system.


== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:31:53 -0800
From: "O'Connell, Dennis M"
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - 429 project

Bill,

My understanding with the 429's is that the intakes passages are good, but
it's the exhaust that need work. Size isn't as much an issue as smoothing,
to many bumps. I just had my exhaust ports smoothed by removing the smog
bump, etc and I can hear the difference. Truck isn't together enough to
feel the difference. The Ford Performance book by Pat Ganahl talks a little
about porting, etc...

Dennis
55 F100

> ----------
> From: perf-list ford-trucks.com[SMTP:perf-list ford-trucks.com]
> Reply To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 11:13 AM
> To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: FTE Perf - 429 project
>
> >> 4. I'd like to try my hand at cylinder head porting. Any known
> >> how-to's? Any recommendations?
> >>
>
> Seems like I just saw an ad in Mustang Monthly for a new video about
> porting ... I'll check at home tonight and see if I can dig up the
> manufacturer ... maybe I'm remembering it all wrong, but it looked pretty
> interesting ...
>
>
> Just my 2cents
>
> Bill
>
> Auto Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/cars.html
> '73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Trucks/truck.html
> '96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://ranger3.cc.iastate.edu/Cars/mustang.html
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:48:24 -0800
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - Long rods and more.

This took all night to go across town!
So. Then I rewrote it and added to it and... for what it'z worth here ya go!

When describing the intake characteristics of the long rod engine I
incorrectly said something to the effect that the Maximum Velocity of the
Intake Charge occurs at +\- 79° ATDC. WRONG!

The Maximum Piston Speed occurs about here, not the Intake Charge speed. The
Intake Charge speed occurs after this point. This is due to the inertia
effect acting in the Intake Charge: "A body at rest tends to stay at rest."

As I described earlier the Long Rod causes the piston to dwell at TDC. If
this dwell effect in fact happens and nothing else changes then the
acceleration of the piston must be higher through the remainder of the
stroke.

Why?

When a crankshaft makes one complete revolution at a given speed the piston
must travel a distance of the stroke twice; once down and once up in a
specific amount of time (RPM). If the geometry is such that the piston
spends more time approaching and departing TDC then it has less time to get
to BDC; the total amount of time being constant. This then requires that
the Piston accelerate faster during the remainder of the stroke.
If the piston acceleration is higher during the middle of the stroke and we
have the valve open as close to maximum lift as we can at the same time.
And the intake system optimized for this effect we can draw in a greater
quantity of the intake charge thereby potentially making more power. Couple
this to the effect of getting more pressure acting on the piston during
combustion. This higher pressure due to the increased dwell time at TDC and
you can see the advantages to the long rod.

The catch here is that the Intake Closing Event of the Camshaft must be
later in the cycle to get the full value of the increased Intake Charge
velocity. Here again due to the inertia effect on the intake charge: "A
body in motion tends to stay in motion." Unfortunately as the Intake valve
is closed later the Effective Compression Ratio is reduced. The Effective
Compression Ratio in conjunction with the amount of Intake Charge determines
the pressure hence power produced.

Effective Compression Ratio is not the same as the Calculated Compression
Ratio. To find the Effective Compression Ratio (sometimes called Dynamic
Compression Ratio) you must NOT use the full swept volume of the cylinder
but the volume that remains after the intake valve closes. For example
suppose that we had a "perfect" engine.
The intake valve opens exactly at TDC and closes at BDC. We can easily
calculate the Compression Ratio by using the full stroke length. But in the
real world to take advantage of the inertia in the Intake Charge we leave
the valve open after BDC to allow the Intake Charge to continue to ram it
self into the cylinder and we close the valve at say 10° ABDC. The
Compression Ratio is now calculated the same way less the amount that the
piston had moved above BDC (10° Crank Rotation). If I just did my math
right that would be a reduction in the stroke length of 0.0304 on a 4.0"
stroke at 10° ABDC.
____________________________________________________________________________
_____
Stroke Rod length Max Piston Velocity Max Piston Acceleration
3.5 5.954(351W) 95.24 6728
3.5 6.58(400M) 94.63 7961
____________________________________________________________________________
_____
Stroke Static CR Rod Lnth. Int.Cls. Eff. CR Dr. 0.05
3.5 9.0 5.954 29°ABDC 8.59 204(M-6250-A331)
59°ABDC 7.31 234(M-6250-A334)
____________________________________________________________________________
_____
I would be remiss if I did not point out that by changing "only" the
connecting rod length; due to the change in the geometry; the Effective
Compression Ratio will be less. 29°ABDC a change from 5.954 to 6.58 will
reduce the Effective Compression Ratio by 0.01 which is not enough to notice
on the dyno or track.

FWIW
Ever wonder why a long duration camshaft requires a higher Compression
Ratio. The longer Duration of the Camshaft reduces the Effective Compression
Ratio so you must build in more static Compression to compensate.
Ever wonder why retarding the Camshaft-Crankshaft phasing can increase the
bottom end power? You just closed the intake valve earlier and raised the
Effective Compression Ratio.

The intake closing point is one of the most important indicators in where an....


To access the rest of this feature you must be a logged in Registered User Of Ford Truck Enthusiasts

Registration is free, easy and gives you access to more features.
If you are not registered, click here to register.
If you are already registered, you can login here.

If you are already logged in and are seeing this message, your web browser is blocking session cookies. Change your browser cookie settings to allow session cookies.




Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Policy - Jobs

This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. Ford is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.