>From herbie ford-trucks.com Sat Oct 10 06:15:27 1998
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 06:15:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: owner-perf-list-digest ford-trucks.com (perf-list-digest)
To: perf-list-digest ford-trucks.com
Subject: perf-list-digest V1 #114
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Sender: owner-perf-list-digest ford-trucks.com


perf-list-digest Saturday, October 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 114



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - Whoa, back it up!
FTE Perf - F-150 Exhaust Systems
RE: FTE Perf - cam lobe oiling
RE: FTE Perf - Whoa, back it up!
FTE Perf - Re: cam lobe oiling
FTE Perf - Intake
RE: FTE Perf - Intake
Re: FTE Perf - F-150 Exhaust Systems
FTE Perf - ADMIN: September Archives
FTE Perf - My more reasoned response to V1-#113

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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:26:23 -0700
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - Whoa, back it up!

OK as I am getting tired of this have it your way.
Actually work has stacked up and I'm out of time.
I do suggest that you get hold of some current literature
SAE has several papers on the cooling of NASCAR engines.
As to T/stats acting like a switch well I always believed that
too until I started hanging around the dyno.
We all (I hope) have seen the T/stat in the hot water.
I have seen the water flow plot on a running engine.
I no-longer believe it acts like a switch.
The bypass hose is there to promote faster T/stat opening and
so has a function. It can not flow enough to do as you say. calculate it.
I did not for get it. I drill my T/stats to achieve the same effect.
But yes I did not mention it, for shame on me.


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:44:20 -0700
From: Tim Mattson
Subject: FTE Perf - F-150 Exhaust Systems

I'm looking for some info, or someone's experiences, with Cat-Back
exhaust systems. Good ones? Bad ones? Recommendations? I've got a 1999
F-150 and would like to upgrade the exhaust. Any comments are greatly
appreciated.

Tim Mattson
tmattson setka.com

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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:39:50 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - cam lobe oiling

you got it, splash oiling is the only way. oil comes from the lifter bore,
and from the crank/rod spinning around, and from dropping down from the
lifter valley area as well as some from the cam bearing area squirting out.

FWIW, splash oiling is interesting, because at different engine speeds and
even different load conditions (read: heat of parts) the splash oiling
changes. some places get better oil supply at any given rpm/load than
other places. this is one reason why when breaking in a new engine you do
not run it at a constant rpm and load. after the cam break in of course,
but even then i tend to run the engine up/down a bit to hopefully get the
splash oiling to get everyplace as much as possible especially sincethe
heat generated during initial engine and cam breakin is signifigantly
higher than under normal running conditions.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Drew Beatty[SMTP:dcbeatty rmi.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 9:44 PM
To: 'Performance list'
Subject: FTE Perf - cam lobe oiling

I have kind of a simple and stupid question. Oil is pumped to the cam
bearings, but how does it get to the cam lobes? Is it splashed or thrown
there by the rods??


Thanks,

Drew Beatty
dcbeatty rmi.net

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:03:00 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Whoa, back it up!

Chris,

when you get the time, send a h20 flow plot to me or at least describe the
results. or better yet, scan a full dyno run with all info in and lets see
it. i would be very interested in it, as would others i am sure. if you
have no scanner, email me and i'll give you my address. i can scan it and
post it on my web page or email back to you. this is not just for the
t-stat deal, but i am sure there's alot of things we could talk about
looking at the dyno results! maybe the results are already in graphic form
of a PC? can you get your hands on one at work? i have seen sample runs,
but never with ALL the measured info on it.

i will not argue about the tstat being a switch or not. looking into the
radiater when it opens/closes it appears like a swich too, but that may be
deceiving. god knows a have been wrong before. i have an open mind and
will listen to anyone. if they make me change my mind i think that is
good.

i hope to get my next pull engine dyno'd. when i do i may share the
results with this list, but will not post it to web as i have to keep it
from my competitors ;) but that won't be for 2 years or so i think.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Chris Samuel[SMTP:fourmuelz email.msn.com]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 10:26 AM
To: Perf-List
Subject: FTE Perf - Whoa, back it up!

OK as I am getting tired of this have it your way.
Actually work has stacked up and I'm out of time.
I do suggest that you get hold of some current literature
SAE has several papers on the cooling of NASCAR engines.
As to T/stats acting like a switch well I always believed that
too until I started hanging around the dyno.
We all (I hope) have seen the T/stat in the hot water.
I have seen the water flow plot on a running engine.
I no-longer believe it acts like a switch.
The bypass hose is there to promote faster T/stat opening and
so has a function. It can not flow enough to do as you say. calculate it.
I did not for get it. I drill my T/stats to achieve the same effect.
But yes I did not mention it, for shame on me.


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:44:16 -0700
From: Vogt Family
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: cam lobe oiling

On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Drew Beatty wrote:
>
> I have kind of a simple and stupid question. Oil is pumped to the cam
> bearings, but how does it get to the cam lobes? Is it splashed or thrown
> there by the rods??

At last, a non cooling quetsion (I started the cooling thread). Yes,
oil is thrown on the cam lobes by the rods. It also leaks by the
lifters. There is traditionally no positive lube system for the cam
lobes. Does anyone know of an engine that uses one?

Birken
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:40:05 -0800
From: Alex
Subject: FTE Perf - Intake

Can anyone help me locate an Intake Manifold for a '79 F-250 w/ 460
I live in Fairbanks,Alaska and cant find a used one......when I do find one they
want my first born as a down payment
Alex
'79 F-250 Supercab

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:24:56 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Intake

what kind of intake are you looking for? cast iron, aluminum, spreadbore, dual plane, single plane, etc.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Alex[SMTP:grunt mosquitonet.com]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 4:40 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Intake

Can anyone help me locate an Intake Manifold for a '79 F-250 w/ 460
I live in Fairbanks,Alaska and cant find a used one......when I do find one they
want my first born as a down payment
Alex
'79 F-250 Supercab

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 19:38:43 +0000
From: Garr&Pam
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - F-150 Exhaust Systems

Tim Mattson wrote:
>
> I'm looking for some info, or someone's experiences, with Cat-Back
> exhaust systems. Good ones? Bad ones? Recommendations? I've got a 1999
> F-150 and would like to upgrade the exhaust. Any comments are greatly
> appreciated.

Dynomax is good...had one on my ranger, borla is awesome and so is
bassani!!! Edelbrock systems seem to be nice but I have noe experience
with them!
Chris
94 Lightning
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 22:59:41 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE Perf - ADMIN: September Archives

September list archives are now on the web site.

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:24:42 -0700
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - My more reasoned response to V1-#113

This morning this first response just flat hit me like well you saw my
response. Before I walk away let me put this on the table. The fact is that
most of what is written out there is out of date. Making it mostly useless.
There are forces that "should" be there that are not and things like
Accelerative and Centrifugal forces that no-one thought about that are.
Much of the dynamics in the cooling system are known only in theoretical
application; or we know what should be happening but is that what is
actually happening?
The other part of this AM's note is that I must go off and get some work
completed and so my input will cease after this note. I'll still be out
here.
The following you may agree with or more likely not. So take it for what it
is worth to you. Until I have more time.
Respects to you all.
___________________________________________
Chris said:
SNIP
Whoa, back it up! Aren't we all forgetting something? Please
correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the bypass hose there to PREVENT this
from happening? I hate to disagree, Chris, but I don't think this theory
holds water (bad pun intended).

>>>>>This is no theory this is a fact plane and simple. If the pump is
capable of 20 GPM and we forget that the actual block pressure is way above
the Rad. cap rating then the 1.5 inch hose can only pass something like
13GPM.
NEXT:

I think we've been approaching this one from the wrong angle.
Let's approach it from the standpoint of coolant flow, rather than
pressure.

>>>>>No Pressure no Flow the two can not be decoupled.
NEXT:

Since coolant is an incompressible fluid, flow (volume per
unit of time) must be equal on both sides of the equation. Since
radiator flow and pump flow depend upon completely different factors
(thermostat restriction vs engine rpm), the bypass hose must be present
to equalize the radiator-side flow with any given pump output flow. I
also submit that it is impossible to out-flow a (stock) bypass with a
(stock) water pump since the bypass is known to handle ALL of the coolant
flow when the thermostat is closed. Therefore under no circumstances
should there be a flow restriction sufficient for the (stock) pump to
force open the radiator cap as this would require the pump to out-flow
both the radiator AND the bypass, combined.

>>>>>Everything stated here is completely totally and 100% wrong. Other then
that it was well said. :-)
NEXT:

In addition, we know that the radiator is able to out-flow the thremostat.
If this were not so, then the 'stat would not be a restriction at all. Only
a
temperature-related overpressure should suffice to blow the cap, because
in that case the over-pressure would be system-wide.

>>>>>ANY over-pressure will blow the cap.
NEXT:

While it's true that the thermostat is an important flow
restriction, it restricts flow through the radiator only. It does not
restrict flow through the rest of the system. As Gary mentioned, this
restriction is necessary in order to limit the velocity of coolant
through the radiator, but I don't think that it contributes to Birken's
radiator cap problem.

lordjanusz juno.com

>>>>>I mean no offense.
Please don't take me wrong here but: Other then the facts your absolutely
right!
- ------------------------------
The thermostat is not there to control the flow velocity through the
radiator.

It is there for only one reason, and that is to bring the engine up to
operating temperature as fast as possible.

When an engine starts cold, the thermostat is closed and all the coolant is
run back through the engine via the bypass hose (or port in some cases)

Once the engine (actually the coolant) reaches the operating temperature of
the thermostat, the thermostat opens and circulates the coolant through the
radiator. At this point it opens only enough to keep the engine above a
specified minimum temperature.

The issue of coolant velocity could be dealt with by sizing hoses or ports.
A thermostat is not necessary to do that.

Ethan

>>>>>The thermostat only opens the passage a portion of the way. It is plane
and simply a restriction to flow. It is a verifiable fact that the
restriction that it imposes is designed into the system AND that every other
orifice in the cooling system is designed for that exact amount of
restriction. Change it at your own risk.
_______________________________________________
sorry, but i must disagree.

>>>>>Fine by me!)

the thermostat opens, and closes. it is like an on/off switch. it does
not open partially as many people think. take one and put it in some water
in a pot, and go to the kitchen.

>>>>>The T/stat as I said this AM is suppose to do that but I have seen them
do otherwise. I have monitored the temperature on the outlet side of the
T/stat and... BS (Bronco Stuff)

this is the reason race engines use restrictors instaed of thermostats - and
a by product is that a restrictor doesn't go bad.

>>>>>I work with race engines and the only ones that use restrictors are
Drag Racers some Circle track boys, and IMHO fools! The simple fact is that
a temperature controlled engine can be made to make more power then one that
is not. Both Drag Racers and Leftyz can by design hold temp fairly constant.
But let one of them get stuck in traffic and watch the temp gauge!

yes, the t-stat brings the engine to operating temp faster.

the pump decides coolant velocity in the engine, and the restriction of the
t-stat and radiator flow relative to the through engine flow decides the
flow
speed through the radiator.

>>>>>How do you factor the lower pressure on the outlet side of the Rad.?
The pump is fully capable of negative pressure if the flow through the
radiator is insufficient. The regulator in this case the T/stat regulates
the engine and there by the radiator but it is not there to regulate the
flow through the Rad.

the time spent in the radiater is the deciding
factor on how much heat is released into the air. assuming the air
velocity and density, humidity, etc. to be equal.

>>>>>Absolutely true!)

sleddog
- ------------------------------
I have kind of a simple and stupid question. Oil is pumped to the cam
bearings, but how does it get to the cam lobes? Is it splashed or thrown
there by the rods??

Thanks,

Drew Beatty
dcbeatty ....

---

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