>From herbie ford-trucks.com Fri Oct 9 06:11:33 1998
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:11:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: owner-perf-list-digest ford-trucks.com (perf-list-digest)
To: perf-list-digest ford-trucks.com
Subject: perf-list-digest V1 #113
Reply-To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Sender: owner-perf-list-digest ford-trucks.com


perf-list-digest Friday, October 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 113



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - Boundary Layer
FTE Perf - "HELP'
FTE Perf - RE: Cooling debate
RE: FTE Perf - RE: Cooling debate
RE: FTE Perf - RE: Cooling debate
FTE Perf - Cooling Gary & George
FTE Perf - cam lobe oiling

=======================================================================

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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:57:30 -0400
From: "Mr. Paul R. Boudreault"
Subject: FTE Perf - Boundary Layer

Hi Everyone.

I don't know if this will help but you could view "flow" as a variable of
friction. Electrical circuits are often taught to students as "flowing
liquid" to help make sense of them. It follows that friction, or
resistance to flow is greatest where there is more restriction, (smaller
diameter wires, or in this case passages for liquids). That is why "twisted
wire" as compared to solid core wire of the same gauge is higher in
resistance. (More surfaces to cause "friction" or resistance to flow. In
wire this is released in the form of "Voltage drop" and physically presents
in the form of heat.) You would probably live with this because of the
added flexibility of stranded or twisted wire.

Hope I didn't open a can of worms here, but it is just a general comparison.
I know that not everything is the same, but sometimes if you paint a
different picture the view improves. ;>)

"Paul"
Mr. Paul R. Boudreault
79 Ford Bronco, 351M, 4 BB, 4 speed manual, being restored/rebuilt?



From: Chris Samuel[SMTP:fourmuelz email.msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 12:38 PM
To: Perf-List
Subject: FTE Perf - Boundary layer

"True, what I said before is that I don't see how the velocity of the
boundary layer can be slower as the outside layer goes faster."


Not in anything that has fluid properties that obeys the basic laws of
physics. Not on this planet at least.

Chris


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Oldtrukman webtv.net (R. Pietsch)
Subject: FTE Perf - "HELP'

Yes, it looks like you have an FMX transmission and not a C6. Not to
worry. The C6 is a little easier to get performance parts for, ie. shift
kits, etc. but the FMX is a very good strong tranny also. I went with
the C6 in my '56, but I also have a 1970 Cougar XR7 in the garage with a
351C & FMX combo in it. We have had the car since 1972 and it now has
over 275.000 miles on it. I know I will get in trouble for this next
coment, but the oil pan has NEVER been off of the transmission. The
gasket leaks quite a bit so I have to add fresh fluid to it every now
and then but we retired it from being our daily driver a few years ago
so just haven't gotton around to fixing the leak.

BTW, if done just right, it will still chirp the tires when it hits
second gear.



Rix56 'The Rat'

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:50:43 -0500
From: lordjanusz juno.com (Paul M Radecki)
Subject: FTE Perf - RE: Cooling debate

Chris said:
>There is another purpose that the thermostat accomplishes which is of
>greater importance then the temperature one. The thermostat is a
restriction
>to flow creating pressure in the system specifically in the engine.
>The Pump can build a bunch of pressure in the engine because the
thermostat
>housing can not flow the same amount of water as the pump can, with the
>T/stat out.

Whoa, back it up! Aren't we all forgetting something? Please
correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the bypass hose there to PREVENT this
from happening? I hate to disagree, Chris, but I don't think this theory
holds water (bad pun intended).
I think we've been approaching this one from the wrong angle.
Let's approach it from the standpoint of coolant flow, rather than
pressure. Since coolant is an incompressible fluid, flow (volume per
unit of time) must be equal on both sides of the equation. Since
radiator flow and pump flow depend upon completely different factors
(thermostat restriction vs engine rpm), the bypass hose must be present
to equalize the radiator-side flow with any given pump output flow. I
also submit that it is impossible to out-flow a (stock) bypass with a
(stock) water pump since the bypass is known to handle ALL of the coolant
flow when the thermostat is closed. Therefore under no circumstances
should there be a flow restriction sufficient for the (stock) pump to
force open the radiator cap as this would require the pump to out-flow
both the radiator AND the bypass, combined. In addition, we know that
the radiator is able to out-flow the thremostat. If this were not so,
then the 'stat would not be a restriction at all. Only a
temperature-related overpressure should suffice to blow the cap, because
in that case the overpressure would be system-wide.
While it's true that the thermostat is an important flow
restriction, it restricts flow through the radiator only. It does not
restrict flow through the rest of the system. As Gary mentioned, this
restriction is necessary in order to limit the velocity of coolant
through the radiator, but I don't think that it contributes to Birken's
radiator cap problem.

lordjanusz juno.com

"You could accuse me of smiting a moribund equine, but that would be
beating a dead horse."

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:28:03 -0400
From: Ethan Vos
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - RE: Cooling debate

The thermostat is not there to control the flow velocity through the
radiator.

It is there for only one reason, and that is to bring the engine up to
operating temperature as fast as possible.

When an engine starts cold, the thermostat is closed and all the coolant is
run back through the engine via the bypass hose (or port in some cases)

Once the engine (actually the coolant) reaches the operating temperature of
the thermostat, the thermostat opens and circulates the coolant through the
radiator. At this point it opens only enough to keep the engine above a
specified minimum temperature.

The issue of coolant velocity could be dealt with by sizing hoses or ports.
A thermostat is not necessary to do that.

Ethan




- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul M Radecki
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 3:51 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - RE: Cooling debate

Chris said:
>There is another purpose that the thermostat accomplishes which is of
>greater importance then the temperature one. The thermostat is a
restriction
>to flow creating pressure in the system specifically in the engine.
>The Pump can build a bunch of pressure in the engine because the
thermostat
>housing can not flow the same amount of water as the pump can, with the
>T/stat out.

Whoa, back it up! Aren't we all forgetting something? Please
correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the bypass hose there to PREVENT this
from happening? I hate to disagree, Chris, but I don't think this theory
holds water (bad pun intended).
I think we've been approaching this one from the wrong angle.
Let's approach it from the standpoint of coolant flow, rather than
pressure. Since coolant is an incompressible fluid, flow (volume per
unit of time) must be equal on both sides of the equation. Since
radiator flow and pump flow depend upon completely different factors
(thermostat restriction vs engine rpm), the bypass hose must be present
to equalize the radiator-side flow with any given pump output flow. I
also submit that it is impossible to out-flow a (stock) bypass with a
(stock) water pump since the bypass is known to handle ALL of the coolant
flow when the thermostat is closed. Therefore under no circumstances
should there be a flow restriction sufficient for the (stock) pump to
force open the radiator cap as this would require the pump to out-flow
both the radiator AND the bypass, combined. In addition, we know that
the radiator is able to out-flow the thremostat. If this were not so,
then the 'stat would not be a restriction at all. Only a
temperature-related overpressure should suffice to blow the cap, because
in that case the overpressure would be system-wide.
While it's true that the thermostat is an important flow
restriction, it restricts flow through the radiator only. It does not
restrict flow through the rest of the system. As Gary mentioned, this
restriction is necessary in order to limit the velocity of coolant
through the radiator, but I don't think that it contributes to Birken's
radiator cap problem.

lordjanusz juno.com

"You could accuse me of smiting a moribund equine, but that would be
beating a dead horse."

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.juno.com
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:05:14 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - RE: Cooling debate

sorry, but i must disagree.

the thermostat opens, and closes. it is like an on/off switch. it does
not open partially as many people think. take one and put it in some water
in a pot, and go to the kitchen. turn on the stove and watch it as it hits
the right temp, it opens. (use of a good thermometer is recommended so you
can see what that temp is. i now do this to EVERY thermostat i buy as i
have bought too many that are bad, outta the box.) turn off the heat and
as the water cools, you will see it close again. fully open, and fully
closed, no in between unless the thermostat is busted. this is the reason
race engines use restrictors instaed of thermostats - and a by product is
that a restrictor doesn't go bad.

yes, the t-stat brings the engine to operating temp faster.

the pump decides coolant velocity in the engine, and the restriction of the
t-stat and radiater flow relative to the thru engine flow decides the flow
speed thru the radiater. the time spent in the radiater is the deciding
factor on how much heat is released into the air. assuming the air
velocity and density, humidity, etc. to be equal.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Ethan Vos[SMTP:ethan forward.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 4:28 PM
To: 'perf-list ford-trucks.com'
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - RE: Cooling debate

The thermostat is not there to control the flow velocity through the
radiator.

It is there for only one reason, and that is to bring the engine up to
operating temperature as fast as possible.

When an engine starts cold, the thermostat is closed and all the coolant is
run back through the engine via the bypass hose (or port in some cases)

Once the engine (actually the coolant) reaches the operating temperature of
the thermostat, the thermostat opens and circulates the coolant through the
radiator. At this point it opens only enough to keep the engine above a
specified minimum temperature.

The issue of coolant velocity could be dealt with by sizing hoses or ports.
A thermostat is not necessary to do that.

Ethan




- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul M Radecki
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 3:51 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - RE: Cooling debate

Chris said:
>There is another purpose that the thermostat accomplishes which is of
>greater importance then the temperature one. The thermostat is a
restriction
>to flow creating pressure in the system specifically in the engine.
>The Pump can build a bunch of pressure in the engine because the
thermostat
>housing can not flow the same amount of water as the pump can, with the
>T/stat out.

Whoa, back it up! Aren't we all forgetting something? Please
correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the bypass hose there to PREVENT this
from happening? I hate to disagree, Chris, but I don't think this theory
holds water (bad pun intended).
I think we've been approaching this one from the wrong angle.
Let's approach it from the standpoint of coolant flow, rather than
pressure. Since coolant is an incompressible fluid, flow (volume per
unit of time) must be equal on both sides of the equation. Since
radiator flow and pump flow depend upon completely different factors
(thermostat restriction vs engine rpm), the bypass hose must be present
to equalize the radiator-side flow with any given pump output flow. I
also submit that it is impossible to out-flow a (stock) bypass with a
(stock) water pump since the bypass is known to handle ALL of the coolant
flow when the thermostat is closed. Therefore under no circumstances
should there be a flow restriction sufficient for the (stock) pump to
force open the radiator cap as this would require the pump to out-flow
both the radiator AND the bypass, combined. In addition, we know that
the radiator is able to out-flow the thremostat. If this were not so,
then the 'stat would not be a restriction at all. Only a
temperature-related overpressure should suffice to blow the cap, because
in that case the overpressure would be system-wide.
While it's true that the thermostat is an important flow
restriction, it restricts flow through the radiator only. It does not
restrict flow through the rest of the system. As Gary mentioned, this
restriction is necessary in order to limit the velocity of coolant
through the radiator, but I don't think that it contributes to Birken's
radiator cap problem.

lordjanusz juno.com

"You could accuse me of smiting a moribund equine, but that would be
beating a dead horse."

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.juno.com
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 20:48:50 -0700
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - Cooling Gary & George

"Yeah, so how thick IS the boundary layer anyway? :-) The boundary layer
moves, just not as fast as the core and it's speed and thickness depend on a
lot of factors but it will always be a slower moving layer with not clear
point
where x thickness is all moving at precisely the same speed, it's like a
stick
poking against a thin rubber menbrane if you were to graph the speed at
various distances from the surface since the difference in speed is due to
the
friction between the column and the metal surface sort of like watching the
dirt in a dump truck, the stuff on the bottom generally hangs back due to
greater friction with the metal and the top of the load moves faster because
the stones tend to act like little bearings and roll over each other
depending
on the medium of course :-)"

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- - -- Gary --

Gary.
All of what you say is true, though I must take your word about the daughter
for a while yet:-)
The boundary layer is never less then one molecular layer and AIUI increases
in thickness with temperature, pressure, and speed. I understand that the
pressure inside the cooling system has the greater influence.
Yep the boundary layer is moving we hope!, but if the flow is low enough the
boundary layer can flash to steam. If this happens the pressures spike and
the boundary layer will be blown off the jacket wall, so forming around the
steam.
Yes!, a bunch of you just said! "I" said the flow was too low. And that
happens most often when the outlet from the engine is... TOO BIG. I am not
referring to the total flow but to the local flow., and that is heavily
influenced by the flow restrictions in the system and they are influenced by
the pressure in the system.
The flow is regulated through the outlet size and the thermostat
restriction. Change the flow or direction by (from what I have read in SAE
papers) as little as .5 GPM, and you can change the temperature
significantly. OR increase the HP and thereby the amount of BTU input into
the engine and you can inadvertently do the same thing as in the GT40 heads.
_______________________- - -

From: George
Subject: FTE Perf - Next

What make of thermostats do you use?

George Miller

Only the finest that my Local NAPA can supply; Usually... but sometimes
others. The fact is that I do use a name brand but I don't go to any
extremes in picking one as they are all junk! But Necessary Junk!( I have
often toyed with building them using some fast acting T/couples and a servo
motor. Then at least I would know that the thing was working like it should
and it could do things before they became necessary, IF I understood what, I
am sure that I could figure out when.
Me? T/stats Junk? Yep they open, they close, they flutter, they do all kinds
of strange things. But they almost never do what they do in a simple pan of
hot water. Wish I knew how they can do all of this stuff and still function;
but they do! I seen it!

Cooling systems are so much fun!
Chris


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 19:44:10 -0600
From: Drew Beatty
Subject: FTE Perf - cam lobe oiling

I have kind of a simple and stupid question. Oil is pumped to the cam....


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