>From herbie ford-trucks.com Thu Oct 8 06:10:48 1998
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 06:10:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: owner-perf-list-digest ford-trucks.com (perf-list-digest)
To: perf-list-digest ford-trucks.com
Subject: perf-list-digest V1 #112
Reply-To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Sender: owner-perf-list-digest ford-trucks.com


perf-list-digest Thursday, October 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 112



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - Re: different slant on cooling
FTE Perf - heat to water
RE: FTE Perf - Re: Long cooling ramble
RE: FTE Perf - Re: different slant on cooling
Re: FTE Perf - Re: different slant on cooling
FTE Perf - different slant on cooling
Re: FTE Perf - Help????
FTE Perf - Next.
FTE Perf - Boundary layer
Re: FTE Perf - Boundary layer
FTE Perf - Next
RE: FTE Perf - Boundary layer

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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:41:59 -0400
From: "Neal B. Forbes"
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: different slant on cooling

Hello Trukkies! This cooling thread has been great. Now a new
consideration, if we don't mind. I wonder how important maximun cooling
really is to total performance. Circle track racers run at high RPM for
hours and use radiators. What temp to they maintain--higher or lower
relative to "stock"? Drag racers have no radiator at all and run for many
minutes without any cooling! And what is the relationship to fuel? We all
know that higher octane makes for more heat, but volatility characteristics
also affect temperature. Remember the thread on vaporization a while back?
Can you calculate your cooling requirements in terms of heat generated? I
mean, get your radiator size by working backwards--tailoring your radiator
by have much heat you have to dispel?

Neal Forbes--stock everything 54 F100

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 06:02:43 PDT
From: "Don Jones"
Subject: FTE Perf - heat to water

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:15:51 -0500
From: lordjanusz juno.com (Paul M Radecki)
Subject: FTE Perf - RE: long cooling ramble

>>>>>>> What an interesting thread. Makes me wish
I'd finished that
Thermodynamics class at Purdue... Does anyone have any
experience with
powerboats? I don't know any details concerning flow and
heat transfer
through a water-to-water radiator as opposed to a
water-to-air system,
but I imagine such a comparison might be enlightening. A
lake is a VERY
efficient heat sink! Just an idea...

Fire pumpers are a good example of this. Our department has a pumper
with a big block ch*v. It has an auxilliary heat exchanger mounted
underhood that uses firefighting water as a cooling source.
Its just a 2 foot long pipe about 3inches in diameter with a 1 or 1 1/2
inch pipe inside it for coolant. It'll keep that engine cool during
pumping operations (stationary up to 2500 rpm full pumping load running
a 1050gpm pump)

Don Jones.




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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:01:10 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Re: Long cooling ramble

i ran my eagle talon for awhile last winter with no thermostat. did not
exhibit any signs of a problem other than the temp gauge. ithe temp took
alot longer to warm up, then it would drop in temp and never come back up
again unless i ran it very hard. replaced thermostat and it was back to
normal. it has a cross flow radiater and IIRC the cap is on the cold side.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Vogt Family[SMTP:vogt oro.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 2:21 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: Long cooling ramble

big snippage!!!

I just wondered if anybody has observed this phenomenon in a cross flow
radiator with the cap on the cold side, or if anybody has seen a big
increase on the temperature gauge when this was happening. So far I
have no response to this so I am inclined to think it is the "top tank"
problem.

Sorry for beating this old dead horse for so long.

Birken
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:18:12 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Re: different slant on cooling

radiater sizing is dependant on horsepower made. two engines that make 400
hp will not need the smae size radiater, but most often one is chosen by
the horsepower.

a nascar may overheat when idling though. don't know for sure, but it is a
problem on many high speed race cars. the radiater doesn't work well
without high airflow, and the water pump speed is slowed down.

the drag racers using no cooling are using alcohol, or nitromehtane and
adding copious amounts of the fuel to the intake to keep it cool. that is
why there is a bit of a fog coming out the zooomies. it is raw fuel. and
when they make their run, it is raw fuel on fire coming out that gives such
a nice display.

alcohol runs cooler. higher octane DOES NOT MAKE FOR MORE HEAT THOUGH!!

i run turbo blue in my pull truck most often. TB runs so cool, it sucks
heat from the intake and carb like crazy! running it in a freinds 3
wheeler it ices the carb and we have to wait for it to thaw once in awhile.
so even different gas type fuels run different.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Neal B. Forbes[SMTP:jawbreaker lightstream.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 8:41 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: different slant on cooling

Hello Trukkies! This cooling thread has been great. Now a new
consideration, if we don't mind. I wonder how important maximun cooling
really is to total performance. Circle track racers run at high RPM for
hours and use radiators. What temp to they maintain--higher or lower
relative to "stock"? Drag racers have no radiator at all and run for many
minutes without any cooling! And what is the relationship to fuel? We
all
know that higher octane makes for more heat, but volatility characteristics
also affect temperature. Remember the thread on vaporization a while back?
Can you calculate your cooling requirements in terms of heat generated? I
mean, get your radiator size by working backwards--tailoring your radiator
by have much heat you have to dispel?

Neal Forbes--stock everything 54 F100

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:27:00 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re: different slant on cooling

From: "Neal B. Forbes"
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: different slant on cooling
Date sent: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:41:59 -0400

> hours and use radiators. What temp to they maintain--higher or lower
> relative to "stock"?

The ones I've talked to run around 220 up to 240 max. Get the largest, most
effiecient radiator you can fit in the vehicle and adjust the thermostat and
other components to taylor the temp you need but the radiator MUST have
more capacity than the worst case scenerio the engine can produce or you
won't be able to keep it cool........unless you are just drag racing. If you
drive on the Eway during the week and off road at slow land speeds and
elevated engine speeds on weekends you need to address several variables
not just one simple set.

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:38:32 -0700
From: George
Subject: FTE Perf - different slant on cooling

That's usually because they tape over the front openings of the car to
assist in high speed aerodynamics. Plenty of air flow at speed. They also
have an electric radiator fan on a manual switch for caution laps and other
low rpm situations which, according to many comments, is often forgotten in
the excitement of racing. The crew chiefs remind them during races to check
gauges other than 'the big one' on a regular basis. I miss the in-car cams
which used to show all the gauges and what they were running at.

George Miller

a nascar may overheat when idling though. don't know for sure, but it is a
problem on many high speed race cars. the radiater doesn't work well
without high airflow, and the water pump speed is slowed down.

sleddog


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:10:14 -0600
From: "Dave Resch"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Help????

>From: "David M. Ackerschott"
>Subject: FTE Perf - Help????
>
>i did get the new Code off the engine,
>DOAE-L off the block, by where the starter
>mounts so from what i have learned i have
>a 351 Cleveland Right?????

Yo David:

Correctamundo! The D0AE block was originally used for 1971 351C 4V
engines. It was the last of the 4V Cleveland blocks w/ 2-bolt main bearing
caps. Your block may have originally been used w/ a 4V engine, or may have
been excess from 4V production that was used for a 2V engine. Your heads
(D1AE-9425) are definitely 2V heads.

BTW: The casting number for 4-bolt Cleveland blocks is D2AE, however, some
early D2AE blocks were drilled and tapped only for 2-bolt caps. So the
D2AE number (alone) is not a guarantee of a 4-bolt block, but any other
number would be a guarantee that you don't have a 4-bolt block (unless it
was modified post OEM).

Sorry, still can't help w/ your transmission.

Dave R. (M-block devotee)


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:22:11 -0700
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - Next.

Well I appear to have helped provoke a bunch of thought or at least opinions
with my cooling ramble. So here is some more.
There is another purpose that the thermostat accomplishes which is of
greater importance then the temperature one. The thermostat is a restriction
to flow creating pressure in the system specifically in the engine.
The Pump can build a bunch of pressure in the engine because the thermostat
housing can not flow the same amount of water as the pump can, with the
T/stat out. (if you are running the corrugated or universal hoses you have
added yet another restriction.)
The coolant flow through the water jackets is designed to function with in a
narrow range of pressure. If we remove the restriction from the system the
pressure differential across the head gasket changes often dramatically.
This change in pressure often takes temperatures in specific areas into the
red zone. In a recent SAE paper; a small change caused the metal
temperatures to rise enough to send the engine into Pre-Ig/Det. The engine
lost power while the coolant temperature did not change vary much and none
by the gauges that most of us have in our trucks.
If I were building a stationary engine that ran at a set RPM. I would simply
calculate the heat produced and size the Rad appropriately, Calculate the
size required and put a restrictor in and let her rip! That is if I lived in
an area that the ambient temperature did not change much.
Otherwise... There is a T/stat in every engine that I build. There is a for
sure a T/stat in every high output engine that I tune simply because you can
not get maximum performance out of an engine that is allowed to change
temperature with power output.
Perhaps I have been lucky or I take better care of my trucks but in the last
25 years I have never had to remove a T/stat other then to change one. I do
change them at about 2 years of service life.

As to the question about the pressure blowing the cap off the Rad. In a down
flow radiator with out a T/stst or restrictor; It can and often does do this
even with a 25# cap. Will it happen on a cross flow. Not in my experience. I
am sure that it has somewhere, sometime. But as a rule not. The radiator
acts as a restriction and the pressure in the outlet tank on both types is
less therefore it follows that it is more difficult to lift the cap with the
normal operating pressure of the cross flow system.

Chris


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:38:10 -0700
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - Boundary layer

"True, what I said before is that I don't see how the velocity of the
boundary layer can be slower as the outside layer goes faster."


Not in anything that has fluid properties that obeys the basic laws of
physics. Not on this planet at least.

Chris


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:28:08 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Boundary layer

From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - Boundary layer
Date sent: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:38:10 -0700

> "True, what I said before is that I don't see how the velocity of the
> boundary layer can be slower as the outside layer goes faster."
>
> Not in anything that has fluid properties that obeys the basic laws of
> physics. Not on this planet at least.

Yeah, so how thick IS the boundary layer anyway? :-) The boundary layer
moves, just not as fast as the core and it's speed and thickness depend on a
lot of factors but it will always be a slower moving layer with not clear point
where x thickness is all moving at precisely the same speed, it's like a stick
poking against a thin rubber menbrane if you were to graph the speed at
various distances from the surface since the difference in speed is due to the
friction between the column and the metal surface sort of like watching the
dirt in a dump truck, the stuff on the bottom generally hangs back due to
greater friction with the metal and the top of the load moves faster because
the stones tend to act like little bearings and roll over each other depending
on the medium of course :-)


A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:15:45 -0700
From: George
Subject: FTE Perf - Next

What make of thermostats do you use?

George Miller

There is a T/stat in every engine that I build. There is a for
sure a T/stat in every high output engine that I tune simply because you can
not get maximum performance out of an engine that is allowed to change
temperature with power output.
Perhaps I have been lucky or I take better care of my trucks but in the last
25 years I have never had to remove a T/stat other then to change one. I do
change them at about 2 years of service life.


Chris

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:04:07 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Boundary layer

the boundry layer is slower than the INSIDE flow.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Chris Samuel[SMTP:fourmuelz email.msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 12:38 PM
To: Perf-List
Subject: FTE Perf - Boundary layer

"True, what I said before is that I don't see how the velocity of the
boundary layer can be slower as the outside layer goes faster."....


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