perf-list-digest Thursday, September 24 1998 Volume 01 : Number 097



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - Ford SVO 460
FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.
RE: FTE Perf - Ford SVO 460
RE: FTE Perf - Ford SVO 460
RE: FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.
RE: FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.
Re: FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.
FTE Perf - 460 q's
FTE Perf - Initial Engine Startup after Rebuild
FTE Perf - ADMIN: Translation?
RE: FTE Perf - 460 q's
RE: FTE Perf - Initial Engine Startup after Rebuild
FTE Perf - ADMIN: Two more milestones
FTE Perf - Re: FTE Small - ADMIN: Translation?
Re: FTE Perf - Re: FTE Small - ADMIN: Translation?
Re: FTE Perf - Re: FTE Small - ADMIN: Translation?

=======================================================================

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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:34:57 -0700
From: "Tom Ewing"
Subject: FTE Perf - Ford SVO 460

Has anyone used this currently available crate motor from Ford? I've got
a 58F100 with a 429/C6/Dana44, and it pretty much needs a total
rebuild. I need the truck to be a daily driver in that I plan to use it
somewhat
in my window cleaning business. I'll need to drive it around the county-no
bumper to bumper city, etc, but to jobs on a daily basis. And, I plan to
use
it as a Wed. night bracket racer at the local drag strip as well. Has
anyone
used this high compression, premium unleaded motor on the street? Is it
at all possible? Some rumors say yes, some say no. I'd like to buy the
motor
from Ford. I can't possibly reproduce this high horsepower motor for the
approx $5000 they cost. I don't think I can anyway. If I can't use the SVO
460
for my work truck, I'll have to rebuild the 429 as best possible with
compression
around 9.5 and with a nitrous set up for the strip. At least that's my
thinking at
this time. I'd appreciate hearing about your experience or best educated
opinion.
Tom
All grown up still plays with trucks.
58F100

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:59:46 -0700
From: Keith Srb
Subject: FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.

Hi gang.

O.K. Lets say I am planning on rebuilding, and adding a few performance
goodies to a junk yard engine. I have lubed/oiled the parts as the engine
is going back together. I have set the timing as best I could. New carb
came right out of box and went onto new manifold.

Now it is "D"-day. I get in, turn the switch and the starter engages.
The engine fires, and comes to life. Runs like doggie dodo. Shakes badly,
misfires, no back fires though. Timing needs to be tweaked, carb is way off
and needs to be tweaked to get this engine to run right. Vacuum hoses may
need to moved to different ports on the new carb.

Now my question is, how do you run this engine at 2000 RPM for the first 20
minuets to allow the cam to get "broke in", especially if you need to
change jets in the carb so they more closely match the needs of this
engine, or you need to switch some of the vacuum hoses around on this new
carb???

Actually I don't want to run this engine up to 2000 RPM, I want to make
sure I get it running smoothly before I run it up to 2000 RPM.

Does the Factory do this with new engines????


Thanks!
Keith Srb

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:19:42 -0700
From: Keith Srb
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Ford SVO 460

Forwarded for George Miller

No personal experience but a friend in Southern California has one in a =
'56 Ford p/u. He doesn't use it as a daily driver (it's about three =
inches off the ground; used primarily for cruise nights and shows) but =
I've ridden in it and it's a screamer. I know he's had cooling problems =
during hot weather during prolonged idle at cruises and traction is =
non-existant with street tires. He runs pump gas but again, it's not =
used as a racer or daily driver. It's not set up for drag racing and is =
what I'd consider a real handfull for daily usage. You're talking a =
non-roller cam w/244/254 duration .588/612 lift. If you have any =
inclement weather, it may not be a fun ride as that bad boy just clears =
it's throat at about 2500rpm. He has another '56 with a 351C that's a =
great driver. For a daily driver, I'd suggest looking at a PAW 460.=20

George Miller

>Has anyone used this currently available crate motor from Ford? I've =
>got
>a 58F100 with a 429/C6/Dana44, and it pretty much needs a total
>rebuild. I need the truck to be a daily driver in that I plan to use it
>somewhat in my window cleaning business. I'll need to drive it around =
>the county-no
>bumper to bumper city, etc, but to jobs on a daily basis. And, I plan =
>to
>use it as a Wed. night bracket racer at the local drag strip as well. =
>Has
>anyone used this high compression, premium unleaded motor on the street? =
> Is it
>at all possible? Some rumors say yes, some say no. I'd like to buy the
>motor from Ford. I can't possibly reproduce this high horsepower motor =
>for the
>approx $5000 they cost. I don't think I can anyway. If I can't use the =
>SVO
>460 for my work truck, I'll have to rebuild the 429 as best possible =
>with
>compression around 9.5 and with a nitrous set up for the strip. At =
>least that's my
>thinking at this time. I'd appreciate hearing about your experience or =
>best educated
>opinion. Tom
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:26:26 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Ford SVO 460

you raise alot of questions here.
like:
how much money are you willing to spend?
how much work can-will you do yourself?
do you want to use 87 octane or be stuck with 92 and better?
are you willing to update your rear axle?
how fast do you want to run?


a 460 build can do very well without the crate engine. think about putting
a 460 bottom end into your block and topping that off with a good set of
cast iron heads with some port work and larger valves, or a set of the new
CJ heads (aluminum)

if you plan on using nitrous, the bottom end is VERY important, and the cj
heads are highly recommended. the exhaust ports on the stock heads are a
bit restrictive for nitrous or forced induction.

SVO now offers a 4.3" stroker cast steel crank for the stock block. it can
be purchased alone, or as a bottom end kit, or as a complete short block
and also a complete crate motor using the CJ aluminum heads. not much more
than the 460 crate, and you get 514 cubes. you can get 521 with a .030
over bore, and 528 at .060 over. (almost 550 cid with the svo block and
4.5 inch bore!)

a cast iron nodular offset ground to 4.15 stroke and get almost 500 cid
with a stock bore.

anything but the $4000 plus steel cranks (not the svo 4.3") are marginal
with nitrous at IMHO over a 125hp shot.

the svo 4.3 crank costs $795
$1695 for crank kit (piston etc.)
$2650 for short block assbly
$6495 for the whole thing less carb, headers, wires, front dress

this is good for 600 hp using SVO mech roller cam. and will according to
ford run safely on 92 pump gas. (9.8:1 CR)

but for a budgeted motor, doing work yourself i think you can do close for
a lot less cost. use the 514 short block kit minus cam, run a stock head
with port work in the exhaust, and bowl work all in both ports using a 2.2
intake and 1.76 exhaust valve and a victor jr single plane intake, 850 carb
or spend a bit more for a dominater of the 1100 variety worked by a good
carb place for better driveability.

use something like a comp cams 305H cam and run about 9:1 to 9.5:1
compression (easy even with later model big chamber heads) and try to keep
the pistons a flat top design. use half groove bearings (no full grooves
please) a HV oil pump, and headers. run a mechanical advance only
distributer at about 36-38 degrees total in at about 2500-3000 rpm.

skip the nitrous or use only a 75 hp shot or so. if you have the room
under the hood, run a 2" open hole spacer and blend the spacer to the
intake and blend the intake (vizards book on intakes is superb reference)
run the offy p-o-s single plane if you want an exhaust crossover for
better mileage and driveability, cold starting.

use a good roller cam chain set. (cloyes, svo, blue thunder etc.) use
roller rockers and adjustable studs (requires head machining if not the
early heads.) stud girdles help, but some companies use second rate
adjusters. i like the harland sharps. it is the counterbore that the nut
sits in that is different for different rockers. the good steel roller
rockers use a small counter bore that forces a crappy nut to be used
especially if stud girdles are used.

the rebuilt 429 should be able to get a good 450 hp of drivable power. gas
mileage is the biggest drawback.

FWIW my 9.1:1 CR 466 can pull all day on 87 octane with cast iron 1973
heads and not a real goo polish job in the cumbustion chambers.

have never tried my pull motor (12.3:1 with cast iron heads) on anything
less than 110 octane so ?????

if you have any other questions, ask. this is a pretty light message
information wise.

oh yea, that dana 44 will have a tough time holding up to the power levels
these engine are capable of making. a 9" is the minum requiremnt for abuse
and daily driver and cost effectivenes, but a dana 60 or better or a
corporate 14 bolt is even better. the 9" though can keep the 5 lugs, the
rest are costly to convert.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Tom Ewing[SMTP:ewing napanet.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 1:34 PM
To: Performance Ford Trucks
Subject: FTE Perf - Ford SVO 460

Has anyone used this currently available crate motor from Ford? I've got
a 58F100 with a 429/C6/Dana44, and it pretty much needs a total
rebuild. I need the truck to be a daily driver in that I plan to use it
somewhat
in my window cleaning business. I'll need to drive it around the county-no
bumper to bumper city, etc, but to jobs on a daily basis. And, I plan to
use
it as a Wed. night bracket racer at the local drag strip as well. Has
anyone
used this high compression, premium unleaded motor on the street? Is it
at all possible? Some rumors say yes, some say no. I'd like to buy the
motor
from Ford. I can't possibly reproduce this high horsepower motor for the
approx $5000 they cost. I don't think I can anyway. If I can't use the
SVO
460
for my work truck, I'll have to rebuild the 429 as best possible with
compression
around 9.5 and with a nitrous set up for the strip. At least that's my
thinking at
this time. I'd appreciate hearing about your experience or best educated
opinion.
Tom
All grown up still plays with trucks.
58F100

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:38:58 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.

what you need to do, is get it running and be sure to do the break in
properly! use an older carb that works if you need to, forget vacuum.
disconnect the timing vacuum, and anything nonessential.

have a buddy help, it is much better. one can play throttle jockey while
other turns timing and carb idle to get it idling nice at 2500 rpms. have
a garden hose ready to cool to radiater because it may run real hot! keep
it cool! but DO keep it running for the 20-25 minutes, at 2000-2500 rpms
adjusting engine speed up and down every minute or so - this is important.

it is hard to do alone. but don't shut it off unless there is something
major wrong, like you can't keep it under 220 degrees or so, or something
goes "terribly wrong'

the mainjets shouln't need to be changed for a break in, adjust idle speed,
and idle mixture.

this breakin is just one reason i want to only ever run roller cams from
now on ;)

sleddog

ps: let it cool completely after break in. change oil/filter with out
running it, and change soon again after that about 100-500 miles IMHO.

- ----------
From: Keith Srb[SMTP:herbie ford-trucks.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 2:59 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.

Hi gang.

O.K. Lets say I am planning on rebuilding, and adding a few performance
goodies to a junk yard engine. I have lubed/oiled the parts as the engine
is going back together. I have set the timing as best I could. New carb
came right out of box and went onto new manifold.

Now it is "D"-day. I get in, turn the switch and the starter engages.
The engine fires, and comes to life. Runs like doggie dodo. Shakes badly,
misfires, no back fires though. Timing needs to be tweaked, carb is way off
and needs to be tweaked to get this engine to run right. Vacuum hoses may
need to moved to different ports on the new carb.

Now my question is, how do you run this engine at 2000 RPM for the first 20
minuets to allow the cam to get "broke in", especially if you need to
change jets in the carb so they more closely match the needs of this
engine, or you need to switch some of the vacuum hoses around on this new
carb???

Actually I don't want to run this engine up to 2000 RPM, I want to make
sure I get it running smoothly before I run it up to 2000 RPM.

Does the Factory do this with new engines????


Thanks!
Keith Srb

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:06:16 -0700
From: Keith Srb
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.

At 03:38 PM 9/23/98 -0400, you wrote:
>what you need to do, is get it running and be sure to do the break in
>properly! use an older carb that works if you need to, forget vacuum.
> disconnect the timing vacuum, and anything nonessential.

I was planning on getting an engine from the junk yard minus the intake and
carb, to save some money. I don't have the room to store any extra parts,
so I don't have an older carb that works. As a matter of fact, I don't even
have an enclosed area where I can put the motor together, which bothers me
a lot. But that is a different story. I will be using and aluminum manifold
and Edelbroke 4 barrel. So how does that change things????

>this breakin is just one reason i want to only ever run roller cams from
>now on ;)

I would like to run a roller cam too, but try and find one for an FE!

Later
Keith



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:20:17 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.

Date sent: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:59:46 -0700
From: Keith Srb
Subject: FTE Perf - Inital Engine Startup after rebuild.

> Now my question is, how do you run this engine at 2000 RPM for the first
> 20 minuets to allow the cam to get "broke in", especially if you need to
> change jets in the carb so they more closely match the needs of this

Stick a stock dizzy in there, static time it to 10 degrees BTDC, hook the vac
to manifold vac, get a carb tuned for the size engine you have and this motor
will run, no load at 2500 rpm all day long, trust me but Sleddog is right, you
need some box fans and maybe even a garden hose to keep it cool during
break in.

A son-in-law only takes part of a daughter away,
Dad keeps the best part :-)

- -- Gary --


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:02:39 EDT
From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Subject: FTE Perf - 460 q's

Hey folks, this is directed mainly to Sleddog, King of the 460's, but any and
all info is appreciated. I just acquired a 74 F-350 w/ a factory 460 (I
checked the VIN at that handy program in the contribution section) Is this
one of the "good" 460's? As in better heads and such?

The real kicker is that this thing only has 79,000 miles, is a desert truck,
and I only paid (some of you better sit down) $900!

Thanks
Darrell Duggan aka JUMPINFORD AOL.com
74 F-350 RangerXLT Super Camper Special
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------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 1998 19:54:02 EDT
From: Hawk sktc.net
Subject: FTE Perf - Initial Engine Startup after Rebuild

Hi all,
I don't want to start a war, but I disagree. I would Not run a missing
and shaking engine to 2500 and hold it there. With a miss, there is the
possibility of washing one or more cylinders down with unburned gas. If
a cylinder gets washed down, the piston may gauld and your freshly honed
cylinder will be scratched. You can do what you want, but I won't risk
a newly rebuilt motor to break in a cam and lifters.

If you were to run it up, after the 20 or 30 minutes you would still
have to trouble shoot the miss, wouldn't you? Or would the miss and
shake magically go away during the run?

Just my 2 cents. Buck Shoff
PS If you built a motor with a wicked cam that will never idle right
under 2000 RPM, please disregard all of the above.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:36:01 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE Perf - ADMIN: Translation?

Can someone translate this?

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

>
>Bonjour,
>Je m'appelle Eric LEROY, j'habite =E0 BRUXELLES (Belgium) et je roule avec=
un
>Ford F-150 (4.9 liters EFI) model 1988.
>C'est un vehicule d'occasion sp=E9cialement import=E9 des USA. Il n'y a=
presque
>pas de voitures comme =E7a en Europe,
>et il n'est pas facile d'avoir des pi=E8ces de rechanges.
>Il existe chez les dealers FORD U.S.A. un livre avec toutes les pi=E8ces de
>rechange, un dessin et le serial number pour les commander.
>Pouvez vous me dire si cela existe sur CD ROM ?
>
>Merci beaucoups
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:49:06 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - 460 q's

congratulations on a fine purchase!! bring it to the east coast and double
your money ;)

i have never seen a pre 79 oem installation of a 460 into a truck, but if
the engine was basically the car engine then all i can say is yes, and no,
depending on what you want to do with it.

not including the PI and CJ heads, there are no good, or bad years of heads
thru to the 1980's (when exaclty?) you would not have either of these if
noone ever "touched" it.

the chamber volume changed, but the ports are basically the same. the
thermactor holes are really meaningless in the later heads. a later head
with the 90+CC volume can be made to work as good as the early head by the
local machine shop by shaving it down to a smaller chamber volume.

the CJ heads and PI heads are the exeption, but a stock head can be turned
into the coveted 73 PI heads by droppping the larger valves into it. and
unless you want extreme power levels, then the CJ head is not a requirement
anyway. they can work on the street when done right, but is it really
worth it for something that is not a requirement?

the bottom end *most likely* has the cj type rods in it, and the crank is
most likely the better quality (2Y or 3Y, i get confused on that one.) the
block will be a 2 bolt block, but that is plenty for 850hp or *maybe* more.

if it has a 4bbl, it has a decent intake already. so, basically unless you
are building an extreme machine, it is all good parts then. OTTOMH i think
about 9:1 CR was normal around then, maybe less in the truck engine. this
i do not know.

want to know anything else, just ask.

sleddog



- ----------
From: JUMPINFORD aol.com[SMTP:JUMPINFORD aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 9:02 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - 460 q's

Hey folks, this is directed mainly to Sleddog, King of the 460's, but any
and
all info is appreciated. I just acquired a 74 F-350 w/ a factory 460 (I
checked the VIN at that handy program in the contribution section) Is this
one of the "good" 460's? As in better heads and such?

The real kicker is that this thing only has 79,000 miles, is a desert
truck,
and I only paid (some of you better sit down) $900!

Thanks
Darrell Duggan aka JUMPINFORD AOL.com
74 F-350 RangerXLT Super Camper Special
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:56:31 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Initial Engine Startup after Rebuild

of course the miss won't go away ofter cam break in. and no, you shouldn't
run a poor running engine for break in that is missing, shaking, or what
ever. this is why 2 people can do it easier than one.

start it up. take it up to 2500 right away and hold it there. one person
plays throttle jockey to keep it there while the other adjusts the carb and
and timing to get it smooth. if all new parts, there shoulf be no miss
after a very short time if things are adjusted properly, and quickly. at
that rpms, the idle screws won't do much, if anything on most engines (but
not all!) and it may be running lean or rich. but it would have to be
like 8 or more jet sizes off minimum IMHO to be that big a problem.

starting and stopping an engine during cam break in is not good at all.
and if you stall it, get it started ASAP again! and don't forget to watch
that oil pressure guage. if it drops to like 40 psi with a HV pump that
could spell trouble coming down the road.

with 2 people shouldn't be hard to do. with one, it gets tricky. but, i
feel that disconnecting the vacuum advance, and setting timing retarded a
safe distance helps alot.

sleddog

- ----------
From: Hawk sktc.net[SMTP:Hawk sktc.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 7:54 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Initial Engine Startup after Rebuild

Hi all,
I don't want to start a war, but I disagree. I would Not run a missing
and shaking engine to 2500 and hold it there. With a miss, there is the
possibility of washing one or more cylinders down with unburned gas. If
a cylinder gets washed down, the piston may gauld and your freshly honed
cylinder will be scratched. You can do what you want, but I won't risk
a newly rebuilt motor to break in a cam and lifters.

If you were to run it up, after the 20 or 30 minutes you would still
have to trouble shoot the miss, wouldn't you? Or would the miss and
shake magically go away during the run?

Just my 2 cents. Buck Shoff
PS If you built a motor with a wicked cam that will never idle right
under 2000 RPM, please disregard all of the above.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:11:24 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE Perf - ADMIN: Two more milestones

This should have been announced about 10 days ago but I've been
very busy lately....

Ford Truck Enthusiasts surpassed 3000 subscribers! We've been
consistantly growing at a rate of about 160-175 new subscribers
per month since we started.

Additionally, last week we had our 350,000th visitor to the
main page. When using a visitor log analysis tool (which counts
visitors who may not come in via the main page) we show over
500,000 visitors to the site in the last 10 months!

Ken Payne
CoAdmin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts
http://www.ford-trucks.com

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 02:32:13 -0400
From: "D. Garnet Quinn"
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: FTE Small - ADMIN: Translation?

Ken Payne wrote:
> Can someone translate this?
>(French deleted)

For those interested, there is an online translator at:

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate?

It even does whole web pages. It is far from perfect but you
certainly can get the jest of things. For example its take
on Ken's query was:

> Hello, I am called Eric LEROY, I live in BRUSSELS (Belgium) and I roll with Ford F-150
> (4.9 liters EFI) model 1988. It is an especially imported vehicule of occasion of the USA.
> There are almost no cars like that in Europe, and it is not easy to have spare parts.
> There exists at the dealers FORD U.S.A. a book with all the spare parts, a drawing and
> the serial number to control them. Can you say to me if that exists on CD ROM?
>
> Thank you beaucoups
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 02:49:19 EDT
From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re: FTE Small - ADMIN: Translation?


....


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