perf-list-digest Sunday, August 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 067



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

Re: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.
RE: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.
RE: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.
FTE Perf - Re: cooling misc
Re: FTE Perf - Re: cooling misc
Re: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.
FTE Perf - Thermo-Siphon Cooling

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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:34:00 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.

From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.
Date sent: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:36:06 -0700

> In our relatively high output engines whether they be 289's, FE's,
> Winzers, M class, or 385's; the hottest water in an engine is in the heads
> and the top 1/8-1/4 of the bore.

Very true but the intake manifold and radiator outlet are higher
than the heads and are both air cooled to some extent so........??
Granted it's not the same ideal setup as a water heater but there
has to be some effect there. At the very least they are working
together, not opposing each other. The real stinker here is how
do we enhance this, improve the flow through the heads in a
positive way?

> If you pump water into a tank without an outlet then you should have the
> same pressure on all surfaces of the tank. If you then place an outlet at
> the opposite end of the tank and let the water simply run out; the
> pressure would be slightly lower but relatively equal throughout out the
> tank.

I would venture to guess that the over all cross section of all the
tubes combined will easilly offset any baffle affect which might
affect pressure at the inlet wouldn't you say? The pressure
differential, if any, would easily be offset and diverted by the
pressure cap up to it's rated relief pressure so any pressure under
the rating would not have any affect, right?

There are theories and then there are theories. I'm trying to weed
out the speculation and look at the facts. Assuming my 4 core
has 3/8x1/8 tubes (I think) so one tube is .046875 sqin times 4
rows times, lets be modest and say 2 tubes per inch, 8 tubes per
inch times 24 inches and we have 9.187 sqin and lets be generous
and say we have 2" inlet at the top and we get 3.1416
sqin..........?? Even with 1/16" tubes we still get 4.59 sqin so
IMHO it's very unlikely we will have any pressure differntial in the
radiator except for possibly inertial forces which should be
canceled by the suction of the pump pulling from the bottom.

I'm really not trying to get into an arguement, just trying to
understand what really happens by saying out loud all the
potential activities going on and how they can be utilized to
improve flow through the heads. In the 460 you already have
front to rear flow through the intake manifold or at least side to
side anyway......actually I think it is side to side so extra tubing
from the rear of the manifold "t"'d into the heater inlet to the
pump or even the front of the manifold may have a good effect
on the head temps. This would be a fun experiment and wouldn't
cost much to try since the manifold already has several pipe
tapped holes in the water jackets.

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 LIncoln Continental, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!
9000#, in ground vehicle lift, Woooo Hoooo!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:35:47 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.

i beleive that there is often a negative pressure in the lower rdiater
hose. therefore the spring inside, and the double clamps required many
times to keep the hose from coming off.
sleddog

- ----------
From: Chris Samuel[SMTP:fourmuelz email.msn.com]
Sent: Friday, August 21, 1998 9:36 PM
To: Perf-List
Subject: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.

If you pump water in to the top of the radiator, and restrict its movement
(the tubes in the radiator), and then pump the water out of the bottom; the
pressure at the top will be higher then the pressure at the bottom.

The only time that the cooling system is open is when the pressure exceeds
the preload on the cap. Not a good thing!

CS





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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:09:43 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.

on my cousin's pulling motor, a SB mopar, with the same basic cooling
system as other detroit V8's, he plumbed from the back a line from each
head and it improved cooling DRAMATICALLY! we are talking an engine that
ran 230 at the end of a run, and now stays cool all the time. 3/8" was
what he used i think. so i *know* it will work.
sleddog

- ----------
From: Gary, 78 BBB[SMTP:gpeters3 ford.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 1998 6:34 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.

In the 460 you already have
front to rear flow through the intake manifold or at least side to
side anyway......actually I think it is side to side so extra tubing
from the rear of the manifold "t"'d into the heater inlet to the
pump or even the front of the manifold may have a good effect
on the head temps. This would be a fun experiment and wouldn't
cost much to try since the manifold already has several pipe
tapped holes in the water jackets.
- -- Gary --





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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:25:07 -0500
From: lordjanusz juno.com (Paul M Radecki)
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: cooling misc


>the
>bottom of the bore is in fact the coolest portion of the bore, the
>temperature rises as we move up the bore and continues to rise
>increasing as
>the area around the exhaust port is reached. This is the reason that
>the
>convection theory can't work. What you are asking is the cooler water
>to
>rise and the hot water to sink.
>

So if we installed the motor upside down...
Any of you Australian FTE-ers use convection cooling? ;-)

lordjanusz juno.com

"The beatings will continue until morale improves..."

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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:12:21 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Re: cooling misc

Date sent: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:25:07 -0500
Subject: FTE Perf - Re: cooling misc
From: lordjanusz juno.com (Paul M Radecki)

> >bottom of the bore is in fact the coolest portion of the bore, the
> >temperature rises as we move up the bore and continues to rise

> So if we installed the motor upside down...
> Any of you Australian FTE-ers use convection cooling? ;-)

Ohhhhhhh! That was toooooo good! Even in my work stupor I caught that
one, He, He, He.......:-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 LIncoln Continental, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!
9000#, in ground vehicle lift, Woooo Hoooo!

- -- Gary --
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:36:27 -0700
From: "George"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - cooling Misc.

Does anyone have experience with the high-flow thermostats from Robertshaw,
Motorad or Mr. Gasket? They claim accurate temp openings and large diameter
openings for better flow.

George Miller


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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:35:31 -0500
From: "wild.bunch"
Subject: FTE Perf - Thermo-Siphon Cooling

I seem to be having trouble with the mailing list today. Please forgive me
if this message has already been broadcast.

The Thermo-siphon cooling system of Henry's old T depended on convection,
which is completely different than using pressure diffentials cause by a
pump. Convection says that hot is less dense and cool is more dense, so
gravity causes the cool to settle to the bottom and hot to rise near the
top. I can't see how, in a closed system, a pressure of zero psi or 100 psi
would make any difference in this principle, because pressure does not
cancel the effect of gravity.

On the other hand, the old thermo-siphon systems were optimized for the
convection principle, with a header tank in the radiator placed much highr
than the highest point of the engine. Maximizing the effects of gravity
improves the convection principle. Modern cars and trucks are designed to
have a hood line that is a lot lower than the old ones, so not much
eleveation differential exists between the engine and the radiator.

I submit that the "flatter" layout of the cooling system has a lot more to
do with minimizing the thermo-siphon effect than 15 psi does.

tim


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