perf-list-digest Tuesday, August 25 1998 Volume 01 : Number 069



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling
RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling
Re: FTE Perf - Thermo-Siphon Cooling
RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling
FTE Perf - Rebuilding ????
FTE Perf - Aircraft Piston Engines
FTE Perf - Holley Pro-Jection
Re: FTE Perf - Rebuilding ????
FTE Perf - Down under side up.

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:51:49 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling

some old airplane engines had upside down cylinders. how'd they keep the
oil from accumulating in the piston skirts? engines don't like heavy oil
slowing the pistons down.
sleddog

- ----------
From: Steve & Rockette[SMTP:canzus seanet.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 1998 5:20 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling

At 04:58 PM 23/8/98 -0400, you wrote:
>oiling must be a real pain though.
>

Nah, just run pick up tubes to the valve covers.....

Steve & Rockette...Lifes a beach
'63 F100 Longbox
'94 Taurus SHO - SWMBO's new car!!
and since most are listing all thier cars:
'72 Capri - Rockette's Toy, aka - SWMBO
'73 Capri - My Toy / Daily Driver
'73 MGB-GT Our Toy
'70 Torino GT My "New" Car


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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:25:57 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling

From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling
Date sent: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:51:49 -0400

> some old airplane engines had upside down cylinders. how'd they keep the
> oil from accumulating in the piston skirts? engines don't like heavy oil
> slowing the pistons down. sleddog

Dry sump system like harleys. The inertia of the oil droplets on the intake
and power strokes would throw off the excess oil to be picked up by the
scavenger pump :-) You are talking 7 cyl radial engines right?

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's "The Ex-Black Hole"
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's "The Black Hole"
78 LIncoln Continental, 460, C-6, 19.5' long! "The Future.." :-)
9000#, in ground vehicle lift, Woooo Hoooo!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:07:53 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Thermo-Siphon Cooling

Date sent: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:35:31 -0500
From: "wild.bunch"
Subject: FTE Perf - Thermo-Siphon Cooling

> I submit that the "flatter" layout of the cooling system has a lot more to
> do with minimizing the thermo-siphon effect than 15 psi does.

Which was one of my points, I agree :-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's "The Ex-Black Hole"
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's "The Black Hole"
78 LIncoln Continental, 460, C-6, 19.5' long! "The Future.." :-)
9000#, in ground vehicle lift, Woooo Hoooo!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:10:19 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling

yes, those. and also some of the bigger ones.
my grandfather in germany worked on a 48(IIRC) cylinder radial. the block did not spin, like some of the single row radials did.
sleddog

- ----------
From: Gary, 78 BBB[SMTP:gpeters3 ford.com]
Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 7:25 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling

From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - Motor Upside Down was Cooling
Date sent: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:51:49 -0400

> some old airplane engines had upside down cylinders. how'd they keep the
> oil from accumulating in the piston skirts? engines don't like heavy oil
> slowing the pistons down. sleddog

Dry sump system like harleys. The inertia of the oil droplets on the intake
and power strokes would throw off the excess oil to be picked up by the
scavenger pump :-) You are talking 7 cyl radial engines right?

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's "The Ex-Black Hole"
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's "The Black Hole"
78 LIncoln Continental, 460, C-6, 19.5' long! "The Future.." :-)
9000#, in ground vehicle lift, Woooo Hoooo!

- -- Gary --
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 04:21:48 -0400
From: "David M. Ackerschott"
Subject: FTE Perf - Rebuilding ????

Hello all i just finished my frame for my 1953 ford f-100 so now on to
the motor, i have a 351 cleveland i am wondering how hard it is to
rebuild it??? i have never taken an engine apart before so i was kind of
wondering if any one could give me some pointers, the motor ran fine
when it was in the truck it smoked a little, it have a 2 barrel carb, so
i would also like to with this to a 4 barrel, i guess my question is is
it easier to rebuild or just go out and by a long block ??? any help
would be greatly appreciated.

sure am looking forward to the California North and South Ford F100 Show
this next weekend..........

thanks in a advance dddavid
1953 Ford F100 Sweet & Low
1996 Ford Contour
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:14:14 -0500
From: "wild.bunch"
Subject: FTE Perf - Aircraft Piston Engines

Sleddog:
To answer your question about oil control in aircraft piston engines in
two words: dry sump. Radials are dry sump engines and if you look closely,
you will typically see oil lines that evacuate the rocker boxes of the
inverted cylinders. Inline engines used the rocker box/overhead
(underhead? - guess this goes back to the Australian discussion) sumps to
collect oil for the dry sump system, as did the inverted Vs. You will
normally see a lower skirt oil control ring on these motors, similar to a
diesel. Aircraft engines are pretty interesting - especially when you
compare similar designs from different conuntries, such as the British
Rolls-Royce Merlin, the German Mercedes Benz DB 601/603/605 series, and the
US Allison. Checking these out, you see htat the Merlin is pretty
conventional 4 valve/cylinder engine, with a flat tub combustion chamber.
Their legendary power output came from a bland design with an advanced 2
stage blower. Don't let the teabaggers BS you here: the Merlins the Brits
specified for high performance/high altitude use were always the ones made
by Packard, not their own. The Mecedes used a lot of "junk" construction, or
funace brazed sheet metal parts. They had a lower hp per cu in output, but
were lighter per cu in. The result was a motor that was the same power and
weight, but larger displacement. A feature of these was direct cumbustion
chamber injection and an inverted V, which did cause more oil control
problems compared to upright engines. The Allison had the most potential.
During it's development, Fred Duesenberg himself said that the crankshaft
looked a little small, but the engineers assured him that they had done
their calculations. Later on, development revelaed that the crank needed
beefing up. Some things never change! Some folks knock the 4 valve pent roof
chamber Allison, but that's because they were designed to be turbocharged.
When the war broke out, most of the tungsten needed for hi-temp turbine
wheels was in Germany, so bombers got the priority for turbos. Next time
someone knocks the Allison to you, ask them what was wrong with the
performance of the P38 Lightening (they had Allisons and Turbos).

The engines that had rotating blocks were known as "rotaries", not radials,
where the blocks are stationary. A good thing about rotaries is their lack
of vibration. The pistons travel in a circle, but DO NOT go up and down, so
no vibrations. On the other hand, the gyroscopic force made turning a one
way affair. These engines used castor oil for lubrication, which was blown
out the exhaust unburned. Pilots often carried a bottle of brandy to offset
the effects of the castor vapor, since there were few porta-potties those
days.

Speaking of running on, sorry, I think I got a little far afield here!

tim

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:04:01 -0600
From: "Nils Gore"
Subject: FTE Perf - Holley Pro-Jection

I'm getting ready to put a newly re-built 302 in my 64 F100.

On the advice of a friend, I'm thinking about putting the 2v Holley
Pro-Jection fuel injection system on it as well.

Can anyone advise me good, bad or indifferent?

(I'm new to this list so I apologize if this is old news.)

Many thanks,


Nils Gore
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:19:31 -0700
From: "George"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Rebuilding ????

Rebuilding an engine isn't that difficult It also provides an extra measure
of satisfaction while increasing your tuning abilities - you know exactly
what's happening inside the engine.There are excellent books on the market
that will lead you step by step through the entire rebuilding process. I
used one to put my first 460 together and still consider that dog-eared copy
my favorite reference.

I'm not a big fan of rebuilt short/long blocks from the production
rebuilders. I've had too many friends with horror stories about early wear
and failures. A pro builder is a different story but then you're getting
into some big labor bucks. I'd rebuild it using some good 4V or CJ heads
with the bigger valves and in the CJ's case, bigger ports, a decent cam,
some headers and a modern ignition system. It'll be a runner.

George Miller



Hello all i just finished my frame for my 1953 ford f-100 so now on to
the motor, i have a 351 cleveland i am wondering how hard it is to
rebuild it??? i have never taken an engine apart before so i was kind of
wondering if any one could give me some pointers, the motor ran fine
when it was in the truck it smoked a little, it have a 2 barrel carb, so
i would also like to with this to a 4 barrel, i guess my question is is
it easier to rebuild or just go out and by a long block ??? any help
would be greatly appreciated.

sure am looking forward to the California North and South Ford F100 Show
this next weekend..........

thanks in a advance dddavid
1953 Ford F100 Sweet & Low
1996 Ford Contour
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:24:24 -0700
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE Perf - Down under side up.

Nah, just run pick up tubes to the valve covers.....

Steve & Rockette...Lifes a beach

Actually that is exactly what happened. The engine was destined for a P-51
Mustang Replica and the oiling system was a dry sump. Collectors were welded
to the valve covers and attached to the scavenge lines.
The cool thing was that the engine will work upside down. You have to make
sure that you don't Hydraulic the engine by pulling the plugs and cranking
it over before you start it. But with virtually no other changes it will run
just fine.

And you thought I was only funn'en........


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