perf-list-digest Tuesday, June 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 003



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Performance
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In this issue:

FTE Perf - Advice on engine swap
Re: FTE Perf - tranny fluid temperature
Re: FTE Perf - Advice on engine swap
FTE Perf - 429 RPMs
RE: FTE Perf - tranny fluid temperature
RE: FTE Perf - 429 RPMs
Re: FTE Perf - Advice on engine swap
FTE Perf - Long Rod Motors
Re: FTE Perf - Long Rod Motors
FTE Perf - Just what do I have here??
FTE Perf - 460 Cam
FTE Perf - Rearend info ?

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:22:32 CST6CDT
From: "Tom Oxner"
Subject: FTE Perf - Advice on engine swap

I have a 429 that I am going to put in my 82 F-100 (it currently has
a 302). I have the 4 speed manual overdrive transmission and a 3.50
rear axle. The truck will be used for towing a car trailer. I have
obtained a bellhousing and flywheel for the 429 (no external
balancer) and the oil pan from an 87 460 truck. The oil pan has a
small bracket on the side for the dip stick. I went to the local ford
dealer and his computer and microfiche only show the trucks with a
front sump pan and the dipstick coming in through the front cover.
Does anyone have the part numbers for the dipstick and attaching
hardware?
The truck has A/C and power steering. Are these brackets different
for the truck than for passenger car applications?
Any assistance will be appreciated. Thanks.
Tom Oxner
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:19:43 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - tranny fluid temperature

> From: Sleddog
> Subject: FTE Perf - tranny fluid temperature
> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:44:05 -0400

> does anybody know what temperature ATF SHOULD be run at? i have
> info on life expectancy at different temps, but too cold may not be
> good either.
> anyone?

The numbers here are a bit loose but I've heard in the range of 275
the fluid is being damaged so 200 - 225 would probably be a good
range to run it in or even lower. I think I would rather err on the
low side myself :-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!
9000#, in ground vehicle lift, Woooo Hooo!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:23:13 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Advice on engine swap

> From: "Tom Oxner"
> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:22:32 CST6CDT
> Subject: FTE Perf - Advice on engine swap

> balancer) and the oil pan from an 87 460 truck. The oil pan has a
> small bracket on the side for the dip stick. I went to the local
> ford dealer and his computer and microfiche only show the trucks
> with a front sump pan and the dipstick coming in through the front
> cover.

If you have the 2wd then a car pan will work fine but on 4wd you need
a "Van" pan or 4x4 with side dipstick. These are readily available
from ford and the 4x4 and van use the same setup AFAIK.

Try to find a truck passenger side exhaust manifold though if you use
stock parts. It routes the exhaust much better for your application
than a car version in either case.

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!
9000#, in ground vehicle lift, Woooo Hooo!

- -- Gary --
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:33:42 -0700
From: Vogt Family
Subject: FTE Perf - 429 RPMs

Well, we'll try out this new list and see how it works. I have a 429 I
am building for a turbo. I would like to know it I can get 5500 RPM out
of this motor without modifying the bottom end. It has 2-bolt mains but
they are pretty hefty as you probably know. Am I setting my sights too
low, could I get more RPMs than that?

Also I would like your thoughts on compressor selection. I had thought
about a Garrett 62-1 but it seems a little low now that I have decided
to use an intercooler. The airflow is supposed to be about 52 lb/min,
or 731 CFM. A 68-1 looks like my only other option for a low boost
system like this. Do Rajay, KKK or Holset make comprable models?

Interestingly, http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.turbofast.com.au/TFmatch.html reccomends a
60-1 compressor. I thought I had ruled this out as way too small.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Birken
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:59:28 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - tranny fluid temperature

i ask, because another puller was blowing up trannys. he had a big cooler
and fan and ytried to keep the fluid cool. now he is trying to keep it
warmer, and less blowups. i have the capacity for perhaps too much
cooling, and want to keep things right. our theory is that when too cold,
the tranny clearances are wrong, or the fluid doesn't flow well enough.

i have found now a chart showing 170-175 as normal, but is cooler yet even
better?

sleddog

- ----------
From: Gary, 78 BBB[SMTP:gpeters3 ford.com]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 1998 9:19 AM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - tranny fluid temperature

> From: Sleddog
> Subject: FTE Perf - tranny fluid temperature
> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:44:05 -0400

> does anybody know what temperature ATF SHOULD be run at? i have
> info on life expectancy at different temps, but too cold may not be
> good either.
> anyone?

The numbers here are a bit loose but I've heard in the range of 275
the fluid is being damaged so 200 - 225 would probably be a good
range to run it in or even lower. I think I would rather err on the
low side myself :-)

78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!
9000#, in ground vehicle lift, Woooo Hooo!

- -- Gary --
== FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html




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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:12:45 -0400
From: Sleddog
Subject: RE: FTE Perf - 429 RPMs

ok, now we're talking performance.

from experience, here we go. i have had 3 460's with stock bottom end (CJ
rods/ARP bolts) hold up to 6500 with no problems. all with 2 bolt blocks
and no oiling work.

if done right and carefully you'll have no problems.

a fellow puller ran a cast iron crank, offset ground to 4.15 stroke, over
9000 rpms in a svo block. before that he ran well over 7500 in a stock
block. this crank has held up thru many years of pulling, makng 900+ hp,
with no problems till an aluminum rod let go.

i am currently building a stock block (concreted) 2 bolt main, to turn
7000+ rpms using the cast iron crank (4.15 stroke) and oliver steel rods.
i have no doubt it will hold up. (but after 7500-8000 i may start gettng
a bit nervous...)

the block i have is used, and previously had a 4.5" stroke steel crank in
it turning up to 8500 rpm from previous owner.

now, on boost you may put the crank thru more abuse, but remember that the
429 crank is stronger, and has a shorter stroke. the balancer is important
- - make sure yu have at least a good stock balancer, or better yet a good
aftermarket type. engine systems recommends elastomer types, not the fluid
or rattler types.

i can't say for sure for turbo, but for NA i would run a stock crank and
rods (cj or the truck rods with the football heads, prepped including
beading, polishing and checked for cracks) up to 650 hp and 6500 rpms with
no fear.

but please, don't take my word for it. call some good ford 429/460
builders to get more info. try this link for a listing of places to call:

www.bluethunderauto.com

sleddog

- ----------
From: Vogt Family[SMTP:vogt oro.net]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 1998 1:33 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: FTE Perf - 429 RPMs

Well, we'll try out this new list and see how it works. I have a 429 I
am building for a turbo. I would like to know it I can get 5500 RPM out
of this motor without modifying the bottom end. It has 2-bolt mains but
they are pretty hefty as you probably know. Am I setting my sights too
low, could I get more RPMs than that?

Also I would like your thoughts on compressor selection. I had thought
about a Garrett 62-1 but it seems a little low now that I have decided
to use an intercooler. The airflow is supposed to be about 52 lb/min,
or 731 CFM. A 68-1 looks like my only other option for a low boost
system like this. Do Rajay, KKK or Holset make comprable models?

Interestingly, http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.turbofast.com.au/TFmatch.html reccomends a
60-1 compressor. I thought I had ruled this out as way too small.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Birken
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:49:41 CST6CDT
From: "Tom Oxner"
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Advice on engine swap

> From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
> To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:23:13 +0000
> Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Advice on engine swap
> Reply-to: perf-list ford-trucks.com

> > From: "Tom Oxner"
> > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:22:32 CST6CDT
> > Subject: FTE Perf - Advice on engine swap
>
> > balancer) and the oil pan from an 87 460 truck. The oil pan has a
> > small bracket on the side for the dip stick. I went to the local
> > ford dealer and his computer and microfiche only show the trucks
> > with a front sump pan and the dipstick coming in through the front
> > cover.
>
> If you have the 2wd then a car pan will work fine but on 4wd you need
> a "Van" pan or 4x4 with side dipstick. These are readily available
> from ford and the 4x4 and van use the same setup AFAIK.
>
> Try to find a truck passenger side exhaust manifold though if you use
> stock parts. It routes the exhaust much better for your application
> than a car version in either case.
>
> 78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6, 235's
> 78 Bronco 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
> 78 Lincoln Town Car, 460, C-6, 19.5' long!
> 9000#, in ground vehicle lift, Woooo Hooo!
>
> -- Gary --
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
Thanks for the information. I had no idea that the passenger car pan
would fit in the truck. The front sump looked too deep to clear the
truck crossmember. Oh well, at least I was able to get the 4WD pan
relatively cheap. Since you have an F-150 with the 460, does the big
block use different motor mounts than the 302. I do not have a big
block handy to look at to see how things are different. Once again,
thanks for the information.
Tom
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:31:42 -0500
From: "Dale and Donna Carmine"
Subject: FTE Perf - Long Rod Motors

Hi Guys!
Just got my first perf-digest today and I'm really excited that this list is
finally up and running.

A few months back there was a thread on the 61--79 list about the advantages
of long connecting rods. At that time I didn't understand (or didn't
believe) what was said so I didn't get much benefit from the discussion.
Since that time I found the article in Hot Rod Mag (feb '98) and now have a
better understanding of the claims that the writer was making.

Basically the article was about building a 351W motor using 400 rods, (gains
about .625" in length), dish pistons, and a heavily milled head (.070) to
get the compression up. The author claimed to be able to run over 11:1
compression on pump gas and obviously a motor with that much squeeze is
going to produce some pretty impressive numbers. All of the above figures
are from memory so if I'm off slightly, please forgive.

Has anyone out there actually done this? Is this a practical approach for a
street motor or does the $$$$ make this a race only application?
All ideas, opinions, explanations are welcome!

later,
dale c
'79 f-150, 351M

BTW 351W w/400 rods.........sounds like a 351M to me! :-)

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:18:57 -0500
From: Mike Schwall
Subject: Re: FTE Perf - Long Rod Motors

>A few months back there was a thread on the 61--79 list about the advantages
>of long connecting rods. At that time I didn't understand (or didn't
>believe) what was said so I didn't get much benefit from the discussion.
>Since that time I found the article in Hot Rod Mag (feb '98) and now have a
>better understanding of the claims that the writer was making.
>
>Basically the article was about building a 351W motor using 400 rods, (gains
>about .625" in length), dish pistons, and a heavily milled head (.070) to
>get the compression up. The author claimed to be able to run over 11:1
>compression on pump gas and obviously a motor with that much squeeze is
>going to produce some pretty impressive numbers. All of the above figures
>are from memory so if I'm off slightly, please forgive.
>
>Has anyone out there actually done this? Is this a practical approach for a
>street motor or does the $$$$ make this a race only application?
>All ideas, opinions, explanations are welcome!
>dale c

It's similar to a 360 and a 390. Both are the same block, only difference
is the stroke is longer in the 390. That 351W with 400 rods would make a
nice short track engine, except for the fact of the heavily milled heads -
will be blowing gaskets like crazy. All the torque gained from the
increased rod ratio will get you off the corners in a hurry. As for a
street engine - sure why not - they turned a 360 into a 390, why not a 351
into a 414 - just a tad more exspensive to make a 414, though.

Mike

_____________________________________________

Email: mschwall texas.net or mike fordfan.org
Home Page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://mschwall.home.texas.net
FORD FAN PAGE: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.fordfan.org

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:36:38 -0400
From: "John Miller"
Subject: FTE Perf - Just what do I have here??

Hi gang, got a question for the 385 series gurus. I walked into the hangar
the other day and saw a small for sale poster on the cork board. It read, "
Ford 429 For Sale" hmmmmmm geeeees, I thought to myself I should check this
out. It said it was torn down, heads reworked, all parts hot-tanked etc.
etc. Hmmmmm. So today I talked to this guy, I was not too impressed, he
really didn't know what he had or what had been done and/or checked for
sure. Without knowing casting numbers etc I told him I would like to check
it out, so tonite I did and I ended up buying the whole mess. Now I don't
really know what I have, So here are the numbers in hopes some of you can
tell me what they are and a little about them. TIA

Item Casting #

Heads DOVE-C

Block D1VE-6015-A2

Rods DOOE A

Rod Caps C9AE-B / C210-B

Crank No markings found

Holley carb No Tag, only Holley #s



John Miller, FoMoCoNUT Gibralter.net
96 F-350 Reg Cab XLT, 4x4, 460 w/ A4OD, My Baby "Baloo"
75 F-100 Reg Cab Ranger, 2wd, 360, C6, Daily Driver "Lucy"
and "always" looking ! ! !
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:34:46 -0500
From: Jim Craig
Subject: FTE Perf - 460 Cam

Thanks, Sleddog. Max power at any cost? Then put it in a Pinto, huh? Try
an Audi 4000, the suspension lends itself to modification better, but hood
clearance isn't gonna happen :-)

I've been talking to the cam companies about their preferences, but I like
your idea better--take their reccommendation and go half a step above!
Besides, as soon as they hear the words "daily driver" and "truck" together
in the same sentence, they immediately goto a cam focused primarily on
low-end torque. Do you have the number for ultardyne?


Thanks,

Jimbo
'77 Supercab 460


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:09:51 EDT
From: HAVOC5L aol.com
Subject: FTE Perf - Rearend info ?

First thinks first.... A little about me and my truck . I bought my first
vehicle that is older than i about two weeks ago . As i am only 24 that wasnt
hard to do . This truck was sitting in the driveway of one of my company's
costumers and he said it was for sale. The very next weekend i went back and
bought it :) i got a 1953 ford F250 for 500$, . Body is in what I feel is
good shape but best of all the original motor runs !!!!!! as i am looking to
soup this truck up i am also looking to get rid of the original motor and
tranny( which works as well) .. i plan on dropping in a 351W and C6 and i
would love to have a 9inch rear if possible .......


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