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Received: with LISTAR (v0.128a; list perf-list); Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:24:07 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:24:07 -0500 (EST)
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Subject: perf-list Digest V2000 #27
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perf-list Digest Wed, 15 Mar 2000 Volume: 2000 Issue: 027

In This Issue:
Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Re: [Re: Ford Truck Kills]
Re: [Re: Oil Pan Removal]
Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Re: [Re: [Re: Engine Temps]]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: canzus seanet.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:12:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Re: Engine Temps]

At 09:24 PM 15:03:2000 EST, you wrote:

Snip

>> > By the way, some
>> > radiators are so efficient that, with the thermostat removed the engine
>will
>> > NEVER reach proper operating temperature in winter.
>
>Actually MOST radiators.. by removing the t-stat entirely you've dramatically
>increased the amount of coolant that can flow compared to the restriction the
>t-stat imposes.

Snip again...

>Gotta remember that bypass hose and the heater core. There's always some flow
>going on even if it's not readily visible at the radiator neck.
>

Just a quick note to the mechanically challenged, the bypass hose and the
heater
core help to temper the coolant coming from the radiator through the waterpump,
if this didnt happen, the gage would swing from cold to hot every few seconds.
Plus if the outlet from the heater didn't go to the waterpump, you wouldn't
get any
heat until the thermostat opened....

Think about this before you post a response...........

Steve & the Rockette
68 F100, 390cid, FMX
63 F100, 292cid, 3speed
72 Capri 2000, hers
73 Capri 2600,tube frame going in.....
73 MGB GT, Our Toy
94 SHO, SWMBO's
98 Contour SVT, Mine, Mine, All Mine....


------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 00 22:32:24 EST
From: Tim Turner netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Ford Truck Kills]

George Ramsower stic.net> wrote:
> I believe this(bracket racing) used to be and still is referred to as
> "Dialing In your times" and people mis-interpret it as telling the
> speedway what you're ET is going to be. >> as if we could guess it, or
> see into the future.

I could be wrong but I thought that was the whole idea.. I say my car does
14.0 and my buddy says his does 17.0 (must be a GM :-0) I get my light 3
Seconds after he gets his light; we should have a photo finish if we were both
correct. As I recall going under your time (13.999 for me) means you 'broke
out' and lose. Red lighting would get your time lower so even if wasnt an
automatic DNF you'ld still break out if your time was dialed in properly.

>
> Regardless of that, the clock has ALWAYS started counting when the
> light turns green.

Summit, JEGS, etc all sell 'tree' simulators to help hone the ol' reaction
time. :-)

Tim

PS.. like Wish I prefer some lateral G-forces in my fun.

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------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 00 22:45:36 EST
From: Tim Turner netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Oil Pan Removal]

"James Steele" hotmail.com> wrote:
> Roger,
> Good decision. Now you can rebuild at your own pace and do it the way
> you want to, the first time. It's not really that difficult, the first one

> I rebuilt, I did it with little more experience than you. Just take your
> time, do your research, and always measure at least twice. Don't be afraid

> to disassemble the thing several times (you'll need to) before you finish.
>
> Oh, a couple more things.
> Be sure to have your block checked for cracks before you spend money on
> machine work.
> Have the cylinders bored BEFORE you order pistons, so you'll know the
> proper size. Yes, this is the voice of experience.

Also get the crank done (if needed) before ordering so you get the proper
bearings. DOUBLE CHECK all the machine shop work!!! 11 years ago I had a
crank done and it was marked rods .020 and mains .010; they were reversed...
Had I put it together that way I hate to think what would have happened.

Tim

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------------------------------

From: "James Draughn" enol.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:43:39 -0800

> >Gotta remember that bypass hose and the heater core. There's always some
flow
> >going on even if it's not readily visible at the radiator neck.

> Just a quick note to the mechanically challenged, the bypass hose and the
> heater
> core help to temper the coolant coming from the radiator through the
waterpump,
> if this didnt happen, the gage would swing from cold to hot every few
seconds.
> Plus if the outlet from the heater didn't go to the waterpump, you
wouldn't
> get any
> heat until the thermostat opened....


My temp gauge in my 79 Ford Van does just this, it will slam forward to
overheating and about make me sh*t my pants, then drop back down to in
between the n and o from "normal", which it usually sits at. Anyone know
how to fix this? On friday I am going to drive 850 miles to texas (from
utah) with an empty trailer, then drive back with a car on the trailer. I
would like to get this fixed before I go if it's an easy fix. This is going
to be a tough ride for my poor van.

By the way. I replaced the thermostat twice already thinking it might be a
bad thermo. It's has a newly rebuilt engine in it (about 8 months old).
Also, I don't know if this means anything but the heater will not blow out
really warm air. Everyone in a great while it will do pretty good, but
usually it just blows luke warm air.

On a recent 1500 mile round trip to cali, the heater blew "cold" air, it was
probably around 30 degrees outside but man that last 200 miles back was
hell, it was so freakin cold inside the van.


------------------------------

From: Sleddog epix.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:40:41 -0500

Personally, I have yet to duplicate a t-stat that opens and closes slowly.
EVERY one that I tested, opened and closed fairly fast. Basically, never
staying in any partialy open state. Even during a slow cool down. Why
have I tested them? Well, it started when I bought them, and they were
bad. So, from then on I test them before using them. I use a high temp
thermometer (mercury) with a fast responce. I use the kitchen stove, and a
pot of water. I also test all water temp gauges before installing them,
against same thermometer.

It might be possible, that after a few opening and closing cycles, and the
whole engine and coolant system is at operating temperature, the t-stat
will find a partially open state. But, that I haven't checked yet.

Kevin

----------
From: Tim Turner[SMTP:manicmechanicnc netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 9:24 PM
To: perf-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: [perf-list] Re: [Re: Engine Temps]

Actually starts opening a little before that and not fully open until a bit
above that. They dont just 'pop' open and shut but gradually open/close in
response to temperature




------------------------------

From: "Brad DeFore" computerlogic.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:15:50 -0500

While we're on the subject of cooling and coolant flow. I noticed on my
throttle bodies (and why are there 2 separate ones) that there is a line
running to them from the radiator. This line circulates coolant to the front
of the bodies and back to the neck of the radiator. It's an awful small hole
on the return but it does flow quite well, this does make me nervous about
not keeping the system clean though. What is this for? Can or should I
disable it? Keeping the intake charge cool is better right?

Lisa, Happy Birthday I hope you have your wishes come true! Have you checked
those reclamation yards (we used to call em junk yards) for the bar. I would
but the lights new they're not hard to wire in and there are some new ones
that have a remote control to turn on so you don't have to worry about
wiring into the cab.
As for those girls at school, ignore em. People always talk about what's
different, that's what makes the world go round. Can you imagine what kind
of place it'd be if everyone drove Tempo's? Or big shiver, something like a
Pinto? Your personality is what counts and from what I've read bout you your
a winner in my book. Besides who wants to always color within the lines,
think outside the box and you'll go far!

Brad DeFore "90" F150 351 4x4

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------------------------------

From: "James Steele" hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:16:45 CST


>
>While we're on the subject of cooling and coolant flow. I noticed on my
>throttle bodies (and why are there 2 separate ones) that there is a line
>running to them from the radiator. This line circulates coolant to the
>front
>of the bodies and back to the neck of the radiator. It's an awful small
>hole
>on the return but it does flow quite well, this does make me nervous about
>not keeping the system clean though. What is this for? Can or should I
>disable it? Keeping the intake charge cool is better right?


Allegedly, this keeps the throttle body from "freezing up". Ever experience
that with a carburator? Once it was common.

Also the coolant is supposed to keep the throttle body from overheating due
to underhood temperatures in the summer.
______________________________________________________


------------------------------

From: "Brad DeFore" computerlogic.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:19:59 -0500



>Allegedly, this keeps the throttle body from "freezing up". Ever
experience
>that with a carburator? Once it was common.

Not really but then I'm down South, we're some of those people that complain
about a couple of inches of snow every other Blue moon.

>Also the coolant is supposed to keep the throttle body from overheating due
>to underhood temperatures in the summer.

So the coolant temp will be lower than the ambient temp in the engine area
during the summer? I would think it would warm up the bodies more than
necessary during the summer. Is there something I'm missing?
Thanks for the info James.

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------------------------------

From: "James Steele" hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:19:08 CST


>Not really but then I'm down South, we're some of those people that
>complain
>about a couple of inches of snow every other Blue moon.
>
I have lived in the South all my life, Brad, and believe me carburators do
ice up even here. It seems to be much more likely than with fuel injection
because when the fuel is sprayed into the incoming air charge, it absorbs
heat in order to vaporize. This is the same principle as water injection.
In SOME instances, especially with high humidity like we have here in the
south, the heat absorbed by the vaporizing fuel can lower the temperature
below 32 degrees, causing the moisture in the air to freeze.

>So the coolant temp will be lower than the ambient temp in the engine area
>during the summer? I would think it would warm up the bodies more than
>necessary during the summer. Is there something I'm missing?

As I understand it, and it may differ from one engine to another, depending
on the design, Ford introduces exhaust gas (EGR) into the intake here, which
tends to raise the temperature of the throttle body much higher than you
would expect. I read a good explanation of this somewhere. If I can locate
the article or book, I'll give you the cite so you can read it. I know it
sounds strange.
______________________________________________________


------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 00 21:25:38 EST
From: Tim Turner netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: Engine Temps]]

I *think* the reasoning for 2 throttles is better bottom end response needed
for working trucks as opposed to the cars. I'm sure someone will correct me
if I'm wrong! :-)

"James Steele" hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Not really but then I'm down South, we're some of those people that
> >complain
> >about a couple of inches of snow every other Blue moon.

Damn right I complain! 2" will shut all the stores down and make me miss
work.

> >
> I have lived in the South all my life, Brad, and believe me carburators do
> ice up even here.

Most definately.. if you know someone that flies a small aircraft ask them
about carburetor icing and the conditions that promote it. You'll be suprised
to find that it happens at a much higher temperature than you think. Some
years back I deleted the OE air cleaner on an old Mazda wagon I had for a 4"
element and had a strange problem under certain weather conditions.. after
some time I started thinking back to when I started taking flying lessons and
opened some books. I got to where I could predict whether or not I'd have the
problem a day in advance by the weather report. (use dewpoint, RH and temp as
I recall) Older aircraft have a manually operated carb heat knob, but
vehicles use the various emission type devices.


> It seems to be much more likely than with fuel injection
> because when the fuel is sprayed into the incoming air charge, it absorbs
> heat in order to vaporize. This is the same principle as water injection.


Or no venturi action to increase the speed and cool the charge. I can't
picture how there would be any icing on a PFI throttle plate since the fuel is
introduced well behind it.

> In SOME instances, especially with high humidity like we have here in the
> south, the heat absorbed by the vaporizing fuel can lower the temperature
> below 32 degrees, causing the moisture in the air to freeze.

As I recall high humidity & temps in the 60's with an unremembered dewpoint
caused the most problems in my case.

>
> >So the coolant temp will be lower than the ambient temp in the engine area
> >during the summer? I would think it would warm up the bodies more than
> >necessary during the summer. Is there something I'm missing?

I thought the coolant in the throttle body was to warm it during operation for
better atomization; yes cool will result in more power overall, but better
atomization yields less emissions. (Seen many a Mustang with that heating
system bypassed.) I'm sure there's some valid reason for it's always flowing;
to me there ought to be some control system to allow it to operate in a
certain temperature window. (Of course that'd be one more thing for me to
consider when things don't run right..)

>
> As I understand it, and it may differ from one engine to another, depending

> on the design, Ford introduces exhaust gas (EGR) into the intake here, which

> tends to raise the temperature of the throttle body much higher than you
> would expect. I read a good explanation of this somewhere. If I can locate

> the article or book, I'll give you the cite so you can read it. I know it
> sounds strange.

I'll agree that the placement of the EGR and PCV are NOT probably the best
places but they've got to go somewhere.. at least it's far better than the EGR
design of the modular engines.

Tim

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