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Received: with LISTAR (v0.128a; list perf-list); Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:23:40 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:23:40 -0500 (EST)
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Subject: perf-list Digest V2000 #26
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perf-list Digest Tue, 14 Mar 2000 Volume: 2000 Issue: 026
In This Issue:
Re: 400m artical - David Resch
Re: 400m artical - David Resch
71 distributor in a 85
Re: 71 distributor in a 85
Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
From: "Bill Beyer"
Subject: Re: 400m artical - David Resch
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:55:10 -0800
I bored the 1976 M block I have .020 over with no problem. The casting
procedure is the same for the M series as Clevelands, IOW thinwall. Casting
#s for the blocks are found under the right rear cylinder bank. The only
known issue with the M series are blocks cast at the Michigan Casting Center
prior to 1977 which crack in the intake valley water jackets. Look for the M
C C cast into the block near the oil pressure sending port. The magic date
Cylinder heads on the M series are virtually identical to Cleveland 2V
series. Many people prefer the Cleveland heads because of a thicker casting.
They also have a slightly smaller combustion chamber volume, 76.2cc vs
78.4cc. I have 1974 Cleveland 2Vs on the 400 I'm building. Port design is
All this information applies to the American M series and Clevelands. I
understand that you guys have a different design Cleveland head than we do.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Travers
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 7:03 AM
Subject: [perf-list] 400m artical - David Resch
> Read an article written by David Resch on 400 motor. A couple of
> 1. I have lots of experience with problems with Cleveland blocks
punching through the cylinder wall when trying to bore .020 over standard.
Also have had a couple crack between head bolt holes and water jackets. I've
put this down to the age (last offered in Australia in 1980) with up to 30
years of rusty crud floating around originally thin cast cylinder walls.
> The 400 being a different casting (Tall Block) is it any better?.
> 2. 400's a rare here in Australia, How do I identify the age -
year of manufacture.
> 3. Are the cylinder heads the same in combustion chamber and port
designs as 351c 2v. If the chamber is the same what size would they be
> Any reliable help would be appreciated
From: "Dave Resch"
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:28:31 -0700
Subject: Re: 400m artical - David Resch
>From: "Tony Travers"
>Subject: 400m artical - David Resch
>1. I have lots of experience with problems with Cleveland
>blocks punching through the cylinder wall when trying to
>bore .020 over standard. Also have had a couple crack
>between head bolt holes and water jackets.
>The 400 being a different casting (Tall Block) is it any
I too have heard about problems w/ overboring 335 series (351C/351M/400) engine
blocks, but not until more than 0.030" overbore. I have also heard about
problems w/ blocks/heads cracking, but again, I have never seen that personally.
Others may have different experiences, but that's what I've seen.
I wonder if the alloys and casting techniques used in Australian 351C
blocks/heads are different than those used for US engines. This could be part
of the problem. I have also heard rumors that the Aussie blocks/heads are
better castings, but I don't really know. I have heard that a lot of people in
Australia run their vehicles w/out anti-freeze/coolant, and that would certainly
cause corrosion and erosion inside the water jacket over several years usage.
At any rate, if the 400s were not cast in Australia, they would probably be
different, maybe or maybe not better.
>2. 400's a rare here in Australia, How do I identify the
>age - year of manufacture.
Date codes are located in two places on the block. The casting date on Michigan
Casting Center (MCC) blocks is located in the little recess at the back of the
block on top, in the area of the oil pressure sending unit. Some Cleveland
Foundry (CF) blocks do not have the casting info there, though. All M-blocks
have the original build date (the date the engine was assembled at the factory,
usually about 10-15 days after the casting date) stamped into the front cover
mating surface on the front of the block.
Ford engine date codes are in the format nXnn, where the first number n is the
last digit of the year (7=1977), the letter X is the month (A-L, A=January), and
the last number nn is the day of the month (01-31).
>3. Are the cylinder heads the same in combustion chamber
>and port designs as 351c 2v. If the chamber is the same
>what size would they be 72cc??
I have no first-hand knowledge about Aussie Cleveland heads. I'm told the
general design of the ports and chambers is the same, but some Aussie Cleveland
heads used slightly different chamber designs/sizes than US heads. I've read
that since some 302 engines in Australia actually used the Cleveland head, there
is an Aussie Cleveland head w/ 52cc chambers. This is way smaller than anything
made in the US, and on a 351 or 400 it would produce outrageously high
There are no US 335 series heads that are advertised to be 72cc. The only US
heads that have the small (2V) ports and valves are the 351C-2V (76.2cc) and the
M-block 351M/400 (78.4cc). Chamber sizes on various US 351C-4V heads are 62.8cc
(early '70-'71 4V heads), 66.1cc ('71 Boss 351 heads), 75.4cc ('71-'73 regular
production 4V heads), and 78.4cc ('74 4V heads).
This is as reliable as I can get.
Dave R (M-block devotee)
From: am14 daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: C6 EB
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:12:31 -0500
Phil: I've never worked on EB, but I think you will find those
locating(alignment) pins to be "tool" steel and not cuttable with your
You might be able to drill a small hole in the rear of the tranny flange
right behind the alignment pin, and drive that one out with a small long
drift pin. That is the approach I'd take, I think. Someone suggested
visegrips, but I've had those pins stick so tight I thought they were part
of the tranny. Might be worth a try before getting out the drill though.
Lots of the work I've done on vehicles I've not been absolutely sure was
going to work until I completely buttoned everything back up and tried it.
BTDT many times over these years. Will be doing it again very shortly on a
couple of projects I have.
Never let that slow me down nor discourage me when it did not work(and
there have been times when it did not work).
From: "Vierra, William BGI SF"
Subject: 71 distributor in a 85
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:12:20 -0800
I need to put the distributor out of a 71 302 into an 85 302 from
everything I have read and looking/test fitting the distributors its seems
this should work without a problem.
Does anyone know a reason why it wouldn't?
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:55:40 -0800 (PST)
From: shane san miguel
Subject: Re: 71 distributor in a 85
If the 85 motor is a roller cam then the distributor
gear from the 71 would have to be changed. I think to
a bronze gear. Double check that though. Otherwise,
you shouldn't have any problems. If the 85 is a flat
tappet cam that is.
--- "Vierra, William BGI SF"
> I need to put the distributor out of a 71 302 into
> an 85 302 from
> everything I have read and looking/test fitting the
> distributors its seems
> this should work without a problem.
> Does anyone know a reason why it wouldn't?
> To unsubscribe, send email to:
> listar ford-trucks.com with
> the words "unsubscribe perf-list" in the subject
> of the
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:39:20 EST
Subject: (no subject)
I seem to recall a fellow on here that built engines strictly for propane. I
got a few questions, such as cam selection, compression ratio, cost of
conversion and so forth. With the cost of gas goin through the roof, Im
looking into alternative fuels. Ive already got a motor goin together, so Id
like to find out what I would need to keep the Hp levels up. Its a 460, .030
over with a pair of 68 429 heads. Pistons are hyper, and the cam Ive got is
a comp 268h. I know the heads need super hard valve seats, but after that I
get lost. Also, is there a setup out there that could handle a high HP 460?
I dont wanna starve the motor, even if I am savin $$. Any help is greatly
74 F-350 "Tweety"
Date: 15 Mar 00 21:24:49 EST
From: Tim Turner
Subject: Re: [Re: Engine Temps]
Bas van der Veer
> > operatiing temperature as soon as possible. A 180 degree thermostat
> > not open until the water temperature reaches 180 degrees.
Actually starts opening a little before that and not fully open until a bit
above that. They dont just 'pop' open and shut but gradually open/close in
response to temperature
> >Until the water
> > reaches that temperature, the thermostat stays closed and the water does
> > circulate through the radiator.
With the exception of how ever much 'bypass' the engineer(s) designed into the
powertrain. As an example Kim's Mercury usually runs right around 195 in
normal conditions but this winter running 75 MPH for a 1/2 hour or so with the
OAT at 20 Degrees resulted in a cold engine and no heat (Brr!) If the temp.
here was often that low I'd think of putting a washer or a ball valve in the
bypass hose to restrict the flow somewhat.
> > By the way, some
> > radiators are so efficient that, with the thermostat removed the engine
> > NEVER reach proper operating temperature in winter.
Actually MOST radiators.. by removing the t-stat entirely you've dramatically
increased the amount of coolant that can flow compared to the restriction the
t-stat imposes. (Especially in import engines that use the full size t-stat
with a 1/2 sized hole.) Froze my butt last winter in the B-2000 as the PO had
removed one. Finally replaced it about the time the WX started warming up.
;-0 (And this on the original radiator with coolant that looks like beef
kool-aid at 206,000 miles so I'm sure it's not at it's most effecient..)
> ahh you're contradicting yourself here me friend.. even the best
> radiator in the world can't cool anything unless there is coolant flowing
> through it!
Gotta remember that bypass hose and the heater core. There's always some flow
going on even if it's not readily visible at the radiator neck.
Others have mentioned it, but with a 50/50 coolant mix and 15 Lbs. of pressure
the boiling point is well in excess of 240 Degrees; some GM electric fans do
not switch ON until as high as 235.. (Assumes the owners maintain the
cooling system well doesn't it! I prefer Mopar's philosophy of turning it on
at 212.. I think Ford is in the 220-225 area.)
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