perf-list Digest V2000 #22

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perf-list Digest Wed, 08 Mar 2000 Volume: 2000 Issue: 022

In This Issue:
Re: Engine Temps
Re: Engine Temps
Re: Engine Temps
Re: Engine Temps
Re: Engine Temps
Re: Engine Temps
ADMIN: 3 Ford Press Releases
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Engine Temps
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Engine Temps
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Oil Pan Removal
Re: Oil Pan Removal
wold products web page?
Re: Oil Pan Removal
Re: Oil Pan Removal
Re: Engine Temps
Re: wold products web page?
Re: Ford Truck Kills
Re: Oil Pan Removal

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 03:10:20 +0100 (MET)
From: Bas van der Veer dds.nl>
Subject: Re: Engine Temps

> operatiing temperature as soon as possible. A 180 degree thermostat should
> not open until the water temperature reaches 180 degrees. Until the water
> reaches that temperature, the thermostat stays closed and the water does NOT
> circulate through the radiator. If you go out and start up your cold engine
> and take off the radiator cap, you should not notice any activity, because
> the water is not circulating. Once the thermostat opens, the water will
> start to circulate and you will see the movement. By the way, some
> radiators are so efficient that, with the thermostat removed the engine will
> NEVER reach proper operating temperature in winter.

ahh you're contradicting yourself here me friend.. even the best
radiator in the world can't cool anything unless there is coolant flowing
through it!

Bas.

------------------------------

From: "James Steele" hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Engine Temps
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 20:23:13 CST

Not a contradiction, Bas. If the thermostat is removed, the water is
circulated constantly, with no obstruction, thus it does not reach the
proper operating temperature. I know, it sounds funny, but take it from me,
I made some COLD trips one winter before I realized that my "friend" had
removed the thermostat for me, "to improve cooling".

>ahh you're contradicting yourself here me friend.. even the best
>radiator in the world can't cool anything unless there is coolant flowing
>through it!
>
>Bas.
>

______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 20:49:14 -0600
From: Buck Shoff sktc.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Temps

Bas van der Veer wrote:

By the way, some
> > radiators are so efficient that, with the thermostat removed the engine will
> > NEVER reach proper operating temperature in winter.
>
> ahh you're contradicting yourself here me friend.. even the best
> radiator in the world can't cool anything unless there is coolant flowing
> through it!
>
> Bas.

I don't think he contradicted himself. He said "with the thermostat
removed", indicating coolant flow. Buck Shoff

------------------------------

From: "James Steele" hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Engine Temps
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 20:39:45 CST

In fact, you'll find that there are aftermarket companies which sell "flow
restrictors" which fit in place of the thermostat in drag racing cars. It's
nothing but a large washer which somewhat restricts the flow to the
radiator.

>ahh you're contradicting yourself here me friend.. even the best
>radiator in the world can't cool anything unless there is coolant flowing
>through it!
>

______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 03:41:13 +0100 (MET)
From: Bas van der Veer dds.nl>
Subject: Re: Engine Temps

whooops, I apologize.. I missed the portion where you said it does not
reach operating temp with the therm *REMOVED* .. thought you said that it
would not reach operating temp with a good rad even when the thermostat is
closed. yeah definately there is just no advantage in removing the
thermostat.

Bas.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 03:44:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Bas van der Veer dds.nl>
Subject: Re: Engine Temps

Yeah speaking of efficient rads.. with my nissan the return side of the
rad is just plain cold if the weather is say 60deg or less, pretty
impressive. Of course that's with a 1.7 liter (~110 cid) motor.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 21:56:32 -0500
From: Ken Payne ford-trucks.com>
Subject: ADMIN: 3 Ford Press Releases

Three news articles from Ford Motor Company have been added to the
web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/news/

1. Pricing, Job #1, Set for Limited Edition 2000 Harley-Davidson
F-150
2. Army Explores Commercial Technologies For New, Maximum-Performance
Pickup Trucks
3. Ford Super Tough Concept Truck is Tough Enough for U.S. Military

Enjoy!

Ken Payne
Admin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts

------------------------------

From: "Joe Merchak" eclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:04:44 -0500

I like to know what the guy had under the hood

-----Original Message-----
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ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of William S. Hart
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 10:56 AM
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Subject: [perf-list] Ford Truck Kills

Hey I ran across this on the web ...

http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.rankinroad.com/03-05-00/UncleJessie-vs-BlackFirebird.mpg

And I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the truck ... its
obviously not stock ...

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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From: "Joe Merchak" eclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:08:13 -0500

Hey I just noticed, he red lighted thats why he one

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 19:25:54 -0800
From: Adam McLaughlin jps.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Temps

Whoa! Quite a response.

Well, thanks for the advice. I'll head down to the NAPA shop friday and pick up a
new radiator to swap into the 2.9. I'll let you know how all of that goes.

Adam

Buck Shoff wrote:

> Bas van der Veer wrote:
>
> By the way, some
> > > radiators are so efficient that, with the thermostat removed the engine will
> > > NEVER reach proper operating temperature in winter.
> >
> > ahh you're contradicting yourself here me friend.. even the best
> > radiator in the world can't cool anything unless there is coolant flowing
> > through it!
> >
> > Bas.
>
> I don't think he contradicted himself. He said "with the thermostat
> removed", indicating coolant flow. Buck Shoff

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 19:26:46 -0800
From: Adam McLaughlin jps.net>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills

That's awesome! If not hilarious. I guess Ford showed old GM up again,
huh?

Adam

"William S. Hart" wrote:

> Hey I ran across this on the web ...
>
> http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.rankinroad.com/03-05-00/UncleJessie-vs-BlackFirebird.mpg
>
> And I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the truck ... its
> obviously not stock ...
>
> Just my $.02
> wish
>
> 96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
> 73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
> http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish
>
> ==========================================================
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> the words "unsubscribe perf-list" in the subject of the
> message.

------------------------------

From: "James Steele" hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 21:57:01 CST

Something tells me this was not "Uncle Jessie's" first time at the track.
Gives new meaning to the term "sleeper"!
>
>Hey I ran across this on the web ...
>
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.rankinroad.com/03-05-00/UncleJessie-vs-BlackFirebird.mpg
>
>
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "Brad DeFore" computerlogic.com>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:29:33 -0500

Yeah I played it back one frame at a time and noticed the same thing, the
truck redlighted and the FB was actually was a late launch.

-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:perf-list-bounce

ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of Joe Merchak
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 10:08 PM
To: perf-list

ford-trucks.com
Subject: [perf-list] Re: Ford Truck Kills

Hey I just noticed, he red lighted thats why he one

-----Original Message-----
From: perf-list-bounce

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ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of William S. Hart
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 10:56 AM
To: 61-79-List; Perf-List
Cc: SVT
Subject: [perf-list] Ford Truck Kills

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------------------------------

From: "William S. Hart" iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:25:34 -0600

> Hey I just noticed, he red lighted thats why he one
>

Wow, everyone brings this up ... here's a couple of my points with it

a) so what he red lighted, that's still a darn fast truck!
b) the purpose was to find out if anyone knew anything about that truck
c) its just funny to see even if he did cheat a little the bird should've
been able to catch him if it was that fast ...

Also if you're runnin brackets, isn't it closest to ET and doesn't really
matter who wins across the line or if you red-light ?

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

------------------------------

From: "William S. Hart" iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: Engine Temps
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:30:56 -0600

> The whole purpose of the thermostat is to help bring the engine up to
> operatiing temperature as soon as possible. A 180 degree
> thermostat should
> not open until the water temperature reaches 180 degrees.

This isn't quite true ... it seems like a lot of people think that the
thermostat is some sort of on/off valve, in reality it will move a bit more
slowly than that and have differing degrees of open ... a 180deg thermostat
shouldn't reach full open until 180degrees, before that its partly closed at
least ... with my old 360 and an oversized radiator a 180deg thermostat
would run 170 normally and eventually get up to 180 if I actually sat and
idled for a few minutes after it warmed up (like a long stop light) ...

Until
> the water
> reaches that temperature, the thermostat stays closed and the
> water does NOT
> circulate through the radiator. If you go out and start up your
> cold engine
> and take off the radiator cap, you should not notice any
> activity, because
> the water is not circulating.

As Gary was so quick to point out one time, this isn't exactly true, there
is a bypass allowing a small amount of flow otherwise the engine would
overheat because the thermostat wouldn't open quickly enough ...

> By the way, some
> radiators are so efficient that, with the thermostat removed the
> engine will
> NEVER reach proper operating temperature in winter.
>

I've only seen this on vehicles that are designed to idle for long periods
of time, or have a small block so that they can lose heat quickly to the
engine compartment ... I think its more a sign of the system being designed
for it rather than actual efficiency of the radiator ... but there are
definitely some radiators that are better than others ...

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

------------------------------

From: "Brad DeFore" computerlogic.com>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:48:58 -0500

Yes I admit I did complain about him redlighting. And the bird maybe shoulda
been able to catch him if all things were stock. It would be interesting to
find out what he had in it and or modified. Can we assume that it was a 4x4?
Since those looked like stock tires and with lots of horses under the hood
it would've lit up the tires instead of launching? There is a shell on the
back, maybe was there something hidden there? Along with this thread I was
watching Speed vision the other week and they had Jag,MB,BMW and they
averaged about 5.5 seconds to 60mph. The slowest was the Jag at 6.5 and the
fastest was MB at 4.8, just for kicks I timed my truck the next day at 8
seconds flat and it's bone stock. So I save quite a few grand, can haul the
camper to the park, lower insurance, not worry about scratches, and still
have a good time! I reckon the point is that Trucks = lots of fun+great
utilitarian use+oommph+value squared.

Brad DeFore "90" F150 4x4 351

-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:perf-list-bounce

ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of William S. Hart
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 9:26 AM
To: perf-list

ford-trucks.com
Subject: [perf-list] Re: Ford Truck Kills

> Hey I just noticed, he red lighted thats why he one
>

Wow, everyone brings this up ... here's a couple of my points with it

a) so what he red lighted, that's still a darn fast truck!
b) the purpose was to find out if anyone knew anything about that truck
c) its just funny to see even if he did cheat a little the bird should've
been able to catch him if it was that fast ...

Also if you're runnin brackets, isn't it closest to ET and doesn't really
matter who wins across the line or if you red-light ?

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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------------------------------

From: "William S. Hart" iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:20:26 -0600

> Can we assume that it
> was a 4x4?

No, it was a 2wd, you can see that in the pic, 4wd would show the front
pumpkin.

> Since those looked like stock tires and with lots of horses under the hood
> it would've lit up the tires instead of launching? There is a shell on the
> back, maybe was there something hidden there?

A close look shows the tires are pretty wide on the back, probably a drag
slick on the stock ish rims ...notice the stock hub caps, that kills me! :)
Anyway likely the topper was there for the extra weight on the rear tires
(probably carried stuff to the track to party too) ...

> fastest was MB at 4.8, just for kicks I timed my truck the next day at 8
> seconds flat and it's bone stock.

How did you time this ? 8 seconds is pretty quick for a 5.8L truck, even
the Lightnings are at "only" 7.x seconds 0-60 and those weigh nearly as much
as your 4x4 ... I'm interested in what you've done as my truck untuned ran
10.5 0-60 and I haven't re-tested it (using a G-tech) to see what it is now
that its been re-tuned ... I've done the stopwatch thing too, but that was a
buddy's Jeep ... with a stock 360 and something like 2.73 gears it was a
blazing 19second 0-60!

Just my $.02
wish

96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

------------------------------

From: "Brad DeFore" computerlogic.com>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:51:27 -0500

OK I wasn't looking for front pumpkin, and didn't think the tires on the
back were that much wider than the front. I went back and reviewed it they
are taller and little wider probably a bit stickier too. As for testing mine
I did the old stop watch thing, I did cheat slightly by braking and revving
until she started to lock. Then pop the brake, gas, and watch at the same
time. I've a friend who's got an SHO and I can stay right with him also he
was impressed. Another guy has one of those Cheby Tahoe's I ran into him on
the interstate and he started playing so I stomped it. He lost because I
pulled away and when he hit 95 big brother kicked in and slowed him down. He
hates that, because he can reach 95 and it'll drop out until it gets back
down to 90 then pick back up. I laugh at him :)

Brad DeFore "90" F150 4x4 351

>How did you time this ? 8 seconds is pretty quick for a 5.8L truck, even
>the Lightnings are at "only" 7.x seconds 0-60 and those weigh nearly as
much
>as your 4x4 ... I'm interested in what you've done as my truck untuned ran
>10.5 0-60 and I haven't re-tested it (using a G-tech) to see what it is now
>that its been re-tuned ... I've done the stopwatch thing too, but that was
a
>buddy's Jeep ... with a stock 360 and something like 2.73 gears it was a
>blazing 19second 0-60!

>Just my $.02
>wish

>96 Mustang GT 5spd 4.6L
>73ish 1/2ton 4x4 6.4L
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish

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------------------------------

From: "Hogan, Tom" kla-tencor.com>
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:37:30 -0800

> Also if you're runnin brackets, isn't it closest to ET and
> doesn't really
> matter who wins across the line or if you red-light ?
>
>

It does matter if you red-light. The race is set up so that the start times
are staggered. If both cars cut a perfect reaction time and both hit their
index both will cross the finish at the same time. The contest is then
between the drivers reaction ability and the consistency of the vehicle. A
more consistent car will beat a fast car that is not consistent.

If you leave too early you will get to the finish line sooner and the setup
of the race is not valid. IE you cheated. If you go to fast you "break
out" of your index and you are disqualified just as if you red lighted.
This is where the consistency of the car comes in. You want a car that will
hit the same et every time. That way you can set your index and race.

After the race starts the index doesn't matter any more and the first car
across the finish line wins. This is great for people that want to race but
don't have the bucks for a hi-po race car. You can race a VW against an AC
Cobra and still win.

Tom H.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:33:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Roger Lane excite.com>
Subject: Oil Pan Removal

I would like to know if replacing crank bearings in a 5.0L is possible w/
the engine still in the truck. I have an 89 F250 4x4 and need to replace
the bearings. I'm hoping that it can be done w/o having to pull the engine.
If anyone has done this, please pass along any pointers or pitfalls that I
should watch out for.

Thank you.
Roger

"Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all it's students."

_______________________________________________________
Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite
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------------------------------

From: Greg Carter entrust.com>
Subject: Re: Oil Pan Removal
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:42:47 -0500

Just getting the pan out is a job in of itself. You have to remove the
upper intake (not that hard), exhaust and engine mounts (completely remove
them from the engine or you wont be able to twist the pan out). Don't
unbolt the trans. Then jack the engine up as high as it will go, remove the
oil pump and twist, cram and jiggle the pan until it comes out. Its harder
than it sounds, I have a 3" body lift and still had to jack it up until it
hit the trans tunnel. It was the least fun job ever on my truck.

Have no idea about the bearings...
Bye.

Greg Carter
Entrust Technologies - http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.entrust.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/buildup/dana60.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lane [mailto:Lanero

excite.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:33 PM
To: 80-96-list-digest

ford-trucks.com; perf-list

ford-trucks.com
Subject: [perf-list] Oil Pan Removal

I would like to know if replacing crank bearings in a 5.0L is possible w/
the engine still in the truck. I have an 89 F250 4x4 and need to replace
the bearings. I'm hoping that it can be done w/o having to pull the engine.
If anyone has done this, please pass along any pointers or pitfalls that I
should watch out for.

------------------------------

From: Greg Carter entrust.com>
Subject: wold products web page?
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:58:59 -0500

Hi,

I am looking for info on World Products cylinder heads. I can't seem to
find their web page. I know they have one... If somebody has it could you
send it to me.

Thanks!

Greg Carter
Entrust Technologies - http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.entrust.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/buildup/dana60.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:38:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Bas van der Veer dds.nl>
Subject: Re: Oil Pan Removal

> Just getting the pan out is a job in of itself. You have to remove the

I just love saying this: on my 78 bronco I only have to remove the starter,
don't even need a jack!

I'm not sure about the bearings, I believe the front is easy, back may be
tougher., I haven't done this but just by looking at it it appears that
you can take the cap off, but I don't see how you could replace all the
bearings and races without taking the transmission out. And by the time
you've done all that you end up being pretty close to removing the engine
:)

You'll be getting really familiar with your garage :)
Bas.

------------------------------

From: "James Steele" hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Oil Pan Removal
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 18:15:22 CST

,

>you can take the cap off, but I don't see how you could replace all the
>bearings and races without taking the transmission out.

Just what "races" would you find on a crankshaft bearing????

Seriously, I've only seen it done on an import engine, but the procedure
(once you get the oil pan off, and go through all the contortions that have
already been mentioned) seems to center around removing the upper bearing
halves (obviously, the lowers come off with the main caps), which have to be
"nudged" out. You can take a screwdriver and CAREFULLY apply pressure to
one side of the upper bearing half until the other side protrudes enough to
remove it. BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO SCRATCH THE CRANK!!!! The use the same
procedure to replace the upper half.

When it's all said and done, this method of replacing main bearings is a
very temporary remedy. You're far better off to remove the engine, so that
you can also check the crank carefully (and in GOOD light) for scratches and
wear.

By the way, the foreign job? Lasted less than 5,000 miles to replace just
the main bearings and cost as much as a complete re-build for an American
V-8.
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "James Steele" hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Engine Temps
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 18:25:28 CST

> >
>
>I've only seen this on vehicles that are designed to idle for long periods
>of time, or have a small block so that they can lose heat quickly to the
>engine compartment ... I think its more a sign of the system being designed
>for it rather than actual efficiency of the radiator ... but there are
>definitely some radiators that are better than others ...

Actually, the engine I was referring to was a stock 1988 5.0 in a stock 1988
Mustang. As I said, it was winter, about 45 degrees. Took over 10 miles
for the temperature gauge to move at all and the heater temperature never
got even warm.
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "James Steele" hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: wold products web page?
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 18:29:59 CST

>I am looking for info on World Products cylinder heads.

Greg,

Try: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.worldcastings.com
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: FLR150

aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:31:26 EST
Subject: Re: Ford Truck Kills

In a message dated 3/9/00 9:26:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, wish

iastate.edu
writes:

<< Also if you're runnin brackets, isn't it closest to ET and doesn't really
matter who wins across the line or if you red-light ?
>>
Ummm Wish, I guess you haven't bracket raced much. If you redlight, YOU
LOSE!!! No if ands or buts about it. A red-light is one for the loss column.
Later
Wayne Foy
'94 Flareside SC (Bracket Racer)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 21:31:28 -0500
From: Brad mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Oil Pan Removal

I would not suggest trying it, because honestly, if you are going to
replace the bearings, you should have the crank turned, and install matched
bearings... Also, this depends on whether or not you have a one or two
peice rear main seal, c/b it will have to be replace, and if it is a one
piece, you will have to pull the tranny out, or the engine one.... I'd
suggest pulling the engine, though I do believe the RMS in that engine is a
two piece...

Brad

>(once you get the oil pan off, and go through all the contortions that have
>already been mentioned) seems to center around removing the upper bearing
>halves (obviously, the lowers come off with the main caps), which have to be
>"nudged" out. You can take a screwdriver and CAREFULLY apply pressure to
>one side of the upper bearing half until the other side protrudes enough to
>remove it. BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO SCRATCH THE CRANK!!!! The use the same
>procedure to replace the upper half.
>
>When it's all said and done, this method of replacing main bearings is a
>very temporary remedy. You're far better off to remove the engine, so that
>you can also check the crank carefully (and in GOOD light) for scratches and
>wear.
>
>By the way, the foreign job? Lasted less than 5,000 miles to replace just
>the main bearings and cost as much as a complete re-build for an American
>V-8.

------------------------------

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