fordtrucks-digest Digest V97 #147

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fordtrucks-digest DigestVolume 97 : Issue 147

Today's Topics:

RE: RE: Holley 4BBL questions. AT [marko

helix.net (marko maryniak) ]
RE: RE: Holley 4BBL questions. AT [marko

helix.net (marko maryniak) ]
Re: Holley 4BBL questions. [marko

helix.net (marko maryniak) ]
New Holley 4BBL Questions. [Keith Srb ]
RE: RE: Holley 4BBL questions. AT [Keith Srb ]
RE: RE: Holley 4BBL questions. AT [Keith Srb ]
New Holley 4BBL Questions. [Keith Srb ]
Re: Help [OldTrux

aol.com ]
Re: fordtrucks-digest Digest [Don Grossman ]
Re: fordtrucks-digest Digest V97 #14 [jstandle

oregontrail.net ]
RE: Advance curves? Or is that price [Mike Schwall ]
RE: Broken C-6 [DC Beatty

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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 11:37:20 -0700
From: marko

helix.net (marko maryniak)
To: fordtrucks

lofcom.com
Subject: RE: RE: Holley 4BBL questions. ATTN: marko in vancouver
Message-Id:
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>
>Keith Srbherbie

netvalue.net
>

Hi Keith, sorry about the insulting dumb questions. I was thinking about
your problem for some time and it's a tough one...

Assuming the carb worked fine with the stock air cleaner on, it would seem
that there are no basic problems with your carburetor itself. And, given
that you have done every possible check under the hot AZ sun respecting
unplugged hoses, etc. then it apparently can't be that either.

I will take into account the fact that you're driving in about 100 degree
weather right now. Is your air cleaner a snorkel type? I will assume that
it is.

Re the vacuum gauge: i had a problem with my carb, it was being a royal
pain in the ** to set up. Oddly, the carb was brand new out of the box and
was the "rv" carb for the 360 and 390. I was getting crap gas mileage with
my tall "open" air cleaner with lotsa bogs and backfires. This guy Jim Hurd
who apparently knows everything about Holleys gave me the specs for my
carburetor compared with the "stock" Holley for a 360/390 4x4 of 71 vintage.
Turns out my power valve was opening too soon. I determined this by
installing a vacuum gauge and watching how the vacuum behaved in my ordinary
driving. Then I compared vacuum readings with the specs of my carb, and
found out it was dumping fuel.

The reason I say this is that the only two things I can think of causing
your problem are, 1) the fuel is evaporating out the float vents and
floating off into the atmosphere rather than staying in the air cleaner
canister thus increasing fuel "consumption" in hot weather (a dumb but
plausible argument) or 2) by opening up the canister you have changed the
vacuum characteristics of the carb (reducing airflow restriction thru the
snorkel can) thus lowering venturi vacuum, and causing your now overrated
power valve to be open most of the time, dumping fuel.

What a mouthful.

Really, I suspect it's the latter. Since you've unrestricted your air
cleaner, you now may have lower vacuum. This means that you might even be
running with slightly open secondaries at normal throttle levels.

First: decide how you want to run your engine, i.e. with what kinda air
cleaner (snorkel, "flipped snorkel", "open"). I recommend a tall 360degree
air cleaner.

Also, go to your Holley dealer and get him to give you the specs for your
model carburetor [power valve type and opening vacuum(s), primary and
secondary jet sizes, venturi and air bleed hole sizes, and secondary spring
color]. Get him to compare those to the following:

Here is a comparison of the Holly #0-6919 (the carb I had and had problems
with) and the #0-80453 (the recommended carb for my vehicle (yours too):

**this is the best one**
Carb Part No. #0-6919 #0-80453
Model No. 4160 4160
CFM 600 600
Mains #62 #63
Secondaries #69 #69
Power Valve 125-206 125-208
1st stage 12.5"Hg 10.5"Hg
2nd stage 5.5"Hg 5.5"Hg
Pump nozzle size .031" .031"
Secondaries Vacuum Vacuum
Spring color black black
Venturi size
Primary 1 1/4" 1 1/4"
Secondary 1 5/16" 1 5/16"
Throttle bore
Primary 1-9/16" 1-9/16"
Secondary 1-9/16" 1-9/16"
Fuel Feed Single Single
Floats hung Side Side

Post your specs as well if you don't mind.

The most important thing here is the opening stages of the power valve, as
mine would open too early (12.5" hg not 10.5") and make the thing flood out
at relatively light throttle.

The idea is that you are relying on the idle metering system to supply fuel
in most low-load situations (flat driving and light acceleration). Then, as
demands increase (1/4-1/3 throttle, smaller hills, etc) the first stage of
the power valve opens to allow more fuel to enter the carb. Then, as you
step on it harder (1/2 throttle or so) the second stage of the power valve
opens, which basically dumps fuel straight from the primary float bowl into
the engine (mind you the power valve is not all that big of a passage).
When you step on it even harder, vacuum drops even more and the secondaries
open, dumping fuel thru the secondary metering system (2dary jets) into the
secondary bores etc. etc. The power valve is held SHUT by vacuum. As
vacuum drops, the power valve gradually opens.

Get a vacuum gauge. No kidding, a numeric one (not one of those that reads
"good, ok, bad, awful"). You could probably rent one or something so you
wouldn't have to mount it. Drive normally and see if there's any difference
at idle vacuum, or acceleration vacuum, between the normal and flipped
breather. See where that "sweet spot" is that you mention. See how early
the vacuum drops to zero when you stomp on it. See if the readings are any
different for normal and flipped at the same throttle positions. If the
readings are different, then you've found the source of your problem.

Then: decide how you want to run your engine. If you decide on a
non-canister type air cleaner, go out and buy one and install it. Set your
idle speed to specifications and (I'm in Canada so I can say this) adjust
your mixture screws on the metering block to achieve highest and steadiest
vacuum reading at the specified idle speed. Mine worked out to about 16.5"
hg.

Then: drive around and figure out what your vacuum readings are for normal
driving, i.e. what reading does normal flat cruising produce, mild
acceleration, harder acceleration, etc. Basically, where is your vacuum
needle most of the time. Then, you should be able to figure out where the
best settings for you are for power valve opening and suchlike.

You may want to try the List-080453 settings above as they work real well
for me.

Best of luck.

marko in vancouver
marko

helix.net
71 f250 4x4

by the way, I am planning to go down to phoenix this fall to find a
rust-free 67-72 for my running gear; my truck's body is beginning to fall
apart....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 12:12:07 -0700
From: marko

helix.net (marko maryniak)
To: fordtrucks

lofcom.com
Subject: RE: RE: Holley 4BBL questions. ATTN: marko in vancouver
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>
>

Okay now that I gave you all that theorizing i have an even better idea!

I wonder, when you flip the air cleaner cover over and screw it back on, I
wonder if it wouldn't push the choke plate somewhat closed...

make sure this isn't happening....

marko in vancouver
marko

helix.net
71 f250 4x4

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 12:20:01 -0700
From: marko

helix.net (marko maryniak)
To: fordtrucks

lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Holley 4BBL questions.
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Keith Srb wrote:
>>
>> Yes I flipped the cover back over. It still has the same symptoms, but to a
>> lesser degree. By that I mean I still can't stick my foot through the floor
>> board with it out it bogging down, only now if I hold it to the floor, it
will
>
>
>I recently worked on a friends Camry...I know I shouldn't touch anything
>other than a Ford...but his car was bogging down badly. Tried numerous
>things over a two week period. Finally handed it over to one of his
>relatives who is a drag racer. He found that the intake manifold gasket
>was leaking. There are a few ways to check this but the only one I can
>think of now is to spray WD40 around the gasket area and see if the idle
>speeds up or improves. This means it is sucking air in through the
>gasket area where it should not be leaking. CAREFUL with the WD40 it is
>flameable. I'd have a fire extinguisher nearby if you go this route. I
>do know there is something else you can spray that is not flameable that
>will yield the same results, just can't remember right now what it is.
>Anybody else wanna jump in on this one?
>
>
>His Camry was driveable if you went easy on the accelerator but the
>second you put your foot into it...the engine bogged down to the point
>of dying. Hope this helps.

This doesn't have to be a leak at the manifold, either--any old vacuum leak
will produce exactly the same results! Either that, or there is (on the
Holley) a flooding problem with the power valve/metering system, either
caused by a ruptured power valve, or a vacuum leak. I still don't see how
you can create a vacuum leak by flipping the air cleaner cover open...

marko in vancouver
marko

helix.net
71 f250 4x4

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:31:58 -0700
From: Keith Srb
To: "'fordtrucks

lofcom.com'"
Subject: New Holley 4BBL Questions.
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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After getting the model number off the carb yesterday, I went home and was
looking through the few books I have. I could not find any reference to Ford
using a Holley Model 6830 on a 74 Ford Pickup. I am being to wonder if this is
the right carb for the right truck/engine.

Would some of the list members who have access to information on the 74 Model
year, check and see if they can find this carb listed?

Thanks Guys & Gals!

Keith Srbherbie

netvalue.net
1986 Ford Bronco II, 2.9L (I HATE LITERS) V-6, Mitsubishi 5-Speed.
1980 Harley Davidson, XLH, Rebuilt from the frame up.
1974 Ford F250 Ranger XLT, 390ci 4bbl, Automatic, Long Box, Style Side.
1966 Ford F100, 240 C.I. Straight Six, Warner T-18 4-Speed, Short Box.
My Blood runs "TRUE BLUE FORD on Four Wheels and Pure HARLEY on Two Wheels!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:18:13 -0700
From: Keith Srb
To: "'fordtrucks

lofcom.com'"
Subject: RE: RE: Holley 4BBL questions. ATTN:
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-----Original Message-----
From:Mike Schwall [SMTP:mikes

intx.net]
Sent:Thursday, August 07, 1997 6:35 PM
To:fordtrucks

lofcom.com
Subject:RE: RE: Holley 4BBL questions. ATTN:

At 01:24 PM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>No, starts hard when hot, stills bogs down if I try to accelerate hard,
>>accelerates O.K. at normal driving pace, but still could use some help.
>>Idles very rough at stop lights.

>Three possible problems for the idle problem - blockage in idle circuit,
>mixture is set too rich, or float level set too high.

>Basically you are running too rich. That is why you are bogging down. Now
>why is it running richer with better airflow, but same jet sizes boggles
>the mind (at least mine, at the moment). You would think it would run
>leaner in this condition. What temperature does the engine run at?
The needle on the temperature gauge barely makes it into the normal operating
range, gotta get a set of real gauges. The truck is equipped with a "super
cooling option" from the factory.

>>I stomped on it twice on the way to work to see how it acted. The rest of the
>>time I was either stopped on a so called Freeway, or following someone who
>>drove 10 miles and hour under the 45 mile per hour speed limit on the
streets.
>> Not much of a chance to stomp on it. It is a 26 mile round trip from home to
>>work and back. With the cover flipped over the truck used a 1/4 tank of gas,
19
>> gallon tank I think. With cover on right side up, 1/8 tank used.

>Does the air cleaner have any kind of emission stuff on it? Like
>connections for vacuum lines, etc? If it does, let us know what they
>are/looks like.
The only two hoses on the air cleaner are, the hose that runs from the exhaust
manifold to the intake snorkel on the air cleaner. The second hose comes from
the top of the Oil Filler Cap and is attached to a filter inside the air
cleaner, breather filter, I think it is called.

>>Before you get your hands dirty, there are a coupla more questions you shud
>>answer:
>
>>-how well does it run?
>Idles rough, runs smooth going down the road, once up to cruising speed, 35-60
>MPH

>Again, looks like an idle circuit problem.

>>-does it start well?
>Starts fine cold, starts hard hot

>Is the choke set right? Is it a manual or electric choke? When hot, is the
>butterfly valve (choke plate) fully open? Do you have the same starting
>problem in the colder months? If not, it could be that the gas station
>still is using or still has winter gas and not summer gas. Gas is
>formulated differently for different seasons. Winter gas vaporizes quicker
>so that it mixes with the cold/cooler air better. Summer gas does not
>vaporize as easily as winter gas so that you don't get vapor lock and hard
>starts.
It is an electric choke, butterfly valve is completely open all the time. I
live in the AZ desert, this morning it was 92 degrees when I left for work at
7:30 am. I have only had the truck for two weeks so I do not know what it will
do in December. I can't really call them the colder months, it only gets down
to 30 degrees at night, then climbs to around 50 degrees during the day.

>If you have the same problem no matter what the temperature is then you
>could have a float level problem, a lean condition which heats up the
>engine higher than normal so when you shut it off after it gets hot, the
>gas vaporizes or is boiled out into the intake causing a flooded condition
>which makes it hard to start. - or there is little or no gas in the fuel bowl.

>How is the timing?
Haven't had a chance to check it yet.

> Does the starter really strain or stop when you try to
>start it hot? If so, then the timing is too far advanced.
No, the starter spins the engine over at about the same speed, hot or cold.

>>-Have you noticed a drop in mileage lately (other than after flipping the air
>>cleaner)

>>Other than the carb how is your engine anyway?
>>Puffs a little blue smoke on startup, so far I haven't had to add any oil. No
>>lifter noise, or anything like that. According to the maintenance records,
the
>>oil pump failed at 30,000 miles, engine was rebuilt at that time.

>Your blue smoke at startup sounds like worn valve guides.

_____________________________________________

Email: mikes

intx.net
Home Page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.intx.net/mikes
Ford Page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.intx.net/mikes/fordarea.htm

Keith Srbherbie

intx.net]
Sent:Thursday, August 07, 1997 6:35 PM
To:fordtrucks

aol.com
To: fordtrucks

lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Help
Message-ID:

If the "data tag" is missing from the drivers's door, the VIN can also be
found stamped on the upper flange of the right frame rail behind the third
crossmember.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 15:02:43 -0700
From: Don Grossman
To: fordtrucks

lofcom.com
Subject: Re: fordtrucks-digest Digest
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vanderpool

research.moore.com wrote:
>
> Jim Vanderpool

MOORECORP
> 08/08/97 07:43 AM
> Please unsubscribe me from your list.
> My e-mail is as follows:
>
> vanderpool

research.moore.com
>
> Thank You,
> Jim Vanderpool

This guy was never on my list?
--
Don Grossman
duckdon

pacific.net

63 Ford F-250 4x4 67' 390, t-98, Spicer 24, Dana 60, Dana 44

Phase 172: rebuild front suspension

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:39:13 +0000
From: jstandle

oregontrail.net
To: fordtrucks

lofcom.com
Subject: Re: fordtrucks-digest Digest V97 #145
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hey,
I am trying to put a 429/C6 in my 1956 ford pickup, which has a 1979
2X4 f-150 chassis. Right now it has a ford 302/C-4. But I just
resently bought a 1979 Ford F-100 2X4 with a 400/C6. I was wondering
if the 429 motor mounts will match to the 400, thus letting me just
take them out of the pickup I bought and stick them in my '56 so I
will get my 429/C-6 combination I am looking for.

thanks.

Jordan
1956 Ford Pickup F-100/1979 Ford F-150 Chassis 302/C-4

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 20:57:09 -0500
From: Mike Schwall
To: fordtrucks

lofcom.com
Subject: RE: Advance curves? Or is that price curves?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:41 AM 8/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>$1.30/gal gas??????????? hell, where i live $1.30 gets me 87 octane, and
that's the best deal in town! actually, 1.28 gets 87, but it take $1.45
sometimes to get 92 or better. race gas costs $4.00/gal or more and no gas
pumps here have the new unical 100 octane. of course that would most
likely sell for $1.80 or more here.

Regular 87 octane normally runs around $1.15. Near where I work there is a
Diamond Shamrock and a Race Track gas station that have a price war almost
every month. Regular 87 can get as low as $0.97 a gallon and 93/94 octane
can get down to $1.15.

Mike

_____________________________________________

Email: mikes

lofcom.com'"
Subject: RE: Broken C-6
Message-ID:

Bad news, man. It sounds like all your forward clutches are smoked, though I am
not the expert.
Maybe you can find exactly what you need at the junkyard. The last time I had to
buy a tranny it was a C4 and it only cost $100.

Good luck,

DC Beatty
1967 F-100 352
1974 Maverick 302

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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 07:51:44 +0000
From: "Rodney S. Richeson"
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Now that I think of it the truck is currectly a bolt on yoke and the
tranny I have is a slip joint...

I have no forward in any gear. Reverse works fine.

Rod

DC Beatty wrote:
>
> Rod. Are you talking about changing from a slip-in yoke tailpiece to a bolt-on
> yoke tailpiece, or vice-versa? If so you must change the output shaft, which
> involves disassembly of the tranny. The output shaft cannot be removed by just
> removing the tailpiece of the tranny.
>
> What exactly is the C-6 doing that needs a "rebuild?"
>
> Good luck,
>
> DC Beatty
> 1967 F-100 352
> 1974 Maverick 302
>
> ----------
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> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:10:36 +0000
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>
> I broke down and had a tranny shop look at my C-6. I got the usual
> answer, Rebuild it, can't be fixed has to be redone. I can't afford
> that at this point, but I do have another C-6 that's out of a car. Can
> I remove the tailpiece from it and slide my NP-205 onto it? I know its
> wishfull thinking but what is involved with making a car tranny work
> with the truck? Am I better off to pull transfer case and tranny and be
> a *gasp* two wheel drive for awhile?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Rod
> 77.5 F-250
>
> ____________________________________________________________________....

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