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fordtrucks-digest DigestVolume 97 : Issue 143

Today's Topics:

Re: Broken C-6 ["George Shepherd"
Apologies... Was RE: 460 headers [sdelanty sonic.net ]
Re: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio? [Daver ]
Re: Holley 4BBL questions - Me too : [Mike Schwall ]
RE: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio? [Randy Collins ]
Edelbrock carb ["Donald R. Screen"
Re: Broken C-6 ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio? ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Advance curves? ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:56:59 -0500
From: "George Shepherd"
To:
Subject: Re: Broken C-6
Message-Id:
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I think Rod has a 4x4 and needs to change to the short stub tailshaft which
mates to the transfer case input. I do believe it can be changed with out
further dissambly than the tailpiece.

----------
> From: DC Beatty
> To: 'INTERNET:fordtrucks lofcom.com'
> Subject: RE: Broken C-6
> Date: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 6:39 PM
>
> Rod. Are you talking about changing from a slip-in yoke tailpiece to a
bolt-on
> yoke tailpiece, or vice-versa? If so you must change the output shaft,
which
> involves disassembly of the tranny. The output shaft cannot be removed by
just
> removing the tailpiece of the tranny.
>
> What exactly is the C-6 doing that needs a "rebuild?"
>
> Good luck,
>
> DC Beatty
> 1967 F-100 352
> 1974 Maverick 302
>
> ----------
> From: INTERNET:fordtrucks lofcom.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 9:13 AM
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> Subject: Broken C-6
>
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> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:10:36 +0000
> From: "Rodney S. Richeson"
> Organization: AMX Systems, Inc.
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
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> Subject: Broken C-6
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>
> I broke down and had a tranny shop look at my C-6. I got the usual
> answer, Rebuild it, can't be fixed has to be redone. I can't afford
> that at this point, but I do have another C-6 that's out of a car. Can
> I remove the tailpiece from it and slide my NP-205 onto it? I know its
> wishfull thinking but what is involved with making a car tranny work
> with the truck? Am I better off to pull transfer case and tranny and be
> a *gasp* two wheel drive for awhile?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Rod
> 77.5 F-250
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:35:11 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
To: FORDTRUCKS lofcom.com
Subject: Apologies... Was RE: 460 headers
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Oops... I got some misdirected private mail from sleddog about 460 headers,
and accidently replied back to the list instead of to the sleddog.

Reposting *private* mail to the list without permission is kinda
rude at least, but it was an accident and I beg forgiveness
from all involved...

humbly,

Steve Delanty

1971 F100 shortbox, FE390, T-18 4-speed

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:26:25 -0500
From: Daver
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Re: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio?
Message-ID:
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Gary, 78 BBB wrote:
>
> > Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 09:00:34 -0500
> > From: Daver
> > Subject: Re: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio?
>
> > the you do. what the stall is doing is making the engine get up
> > into it's power band befor feeding power to the wheels. It makes it
>
> Seems like so many of us are trying to get two extremes from our
> trucks. On the one hand we want gobs of torque at the bottom for
> towing or climbing hills but we want to blow all those vettes in the
> weeds at the top too and It aint likely to happen without some
> serious sacrifices either to drivability or economy or putting two
> engines in our trucks.
>
> High stall converters might give us low speed drivability and torque
> but at what cost? Takes more rpm to do the job which translates into
> more fuel and more engine wear and produces more heat in the
> transmission. This is one reason I contemplated the Rhodes lifters
> and now I see almost all the big cam companies have similar "bleeder"
> lifters for long overlap cams to allow low end drivability and smooth
> idle but what do they do to economy and overall performance where the
> cam is supposed to deliver it's punch? Do they pump up all the way,
> soon enough to be practical? I plan to use a roller cam with a rated
> operating range between 2500 and 5500. This is not a low speed
> torque cam IMHO so maybe these lifters would help? Don't know but I
> will be looking into it.
>
> I wonder if they make bleeder roller cam lifters?
>
> -- Gary Peters --

Rhodes lifters are an agrivation waiting to waist someones time.

Molater

Daver

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:12:59 -0500
From: Mike Schwall
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Holley 4BBL questions - Me too :)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have this same problem.

>74 F250, 390V8, Factory Equipped Holley 4BBl. I have several questions
about
>this carb. I turned the air cleaner cover over, to allow more air flow
into the
>carb, I want to put a K&N Air Filter on it sometime. Anyway yesterday, air
>cleaner cover turned over, I noticed two things. One it took a lot more
fuel to
>get to work, it seemed like it took twice as much fuel to get to work and
back
>home. Second, while under heavy acceleration, the engine seemed to bog down
>until I lifted my foot off the accelerator pedal some. Actually I found
that if
>I would only push the pedal about 1/4 to 1/2 way down to the floor the
engine
>would jump to life and go. If I floored it, the engine bogged down until I
>lifted the pedal far enough to find that sweet spot.


Vehicle and engine specs:

I have a '78 F150 302 2WD, LWB. Standard 3 speed manual converted to floor
shift, 3.00:1 9" rear. I changed engines to a fully rebuilt '72 302 with
''72 or78 car heads (can't remember, but chose it for the small chambers).
Heads were rebuilt, guides reamed and installed over-sized valves (larger
stem, stock valve size), new springs - no port work (unfortunately). 302
was bored .030, crank turned .010/.010" under. Conditioned rods, new cam,
rod, and main bearings, cast pistons and regular cast rings. New hydraulic
lifters, pushrods, rockers (stock type), and installed a Comp Cams rocker
adjusting kit (so I could adjust the preload and not stuck with the factory
"torque the nuts" preload). Crane cam #363901 - spec. card can be viewed at
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.intx.net/mikes/cam.htm

Performer intake, Holley 4160 600 CFM with vac. secondaries (single fuel
inlet, one accel. pump) (#80457) - converted to a 4150 (changed metering
plate in secondaries to a metering block). Primary jet size - #67,
secondary jet size - #68, 6.5" standard power valve, and red pump cam set
at last hole - stock shooters and standard spring (no color) in secondary
diaphragm. Aluminum 1" spacer between carb and intake (open dump). All
gaskets are less than two months old - all passages cleaned with carb
cleaner and blown out with compressed air.

Summit $90 headers (1.5" primaries, 3" collectors), Dynomax Super Turbo
mufflers, with new 2.5" pipe from the collectors to mufflers, 2 1/4" from
mufflers to tail (shop mistake - I wanted 2 1/4" all, but the guy thought I
wanted 2.5" - luckily I caught him before he did the whole thing. He
wouldn't change out the 2.5" pipe for free since he had already bent it and
welded it to the reducers and mufflers.)

I have stock ignition (Borg Warner Duraspark box - original is emergency
backup), new cap (brass terminals) and rotor, NGK V-Power plugs gapped at
.044", and Borg Warner magnetic suppression spiral core 8mm wires. I have
the 13" Motorsport open element air cleaner with a K&N.

With the stock '78 advance curve, I ping on anything but 93+ octane at the
stock 10 degree base timing and spark advance. I have been running 93, 94
octane gas since a day after I initially started the engine and have
changed the mechanical advance curve for a total of 30 degrees at 3000 RPM,
and with the vacuum advance connected I get 60 degrees advance at 3000 RPM
(no load, free spin) Base timing is set at 12 degrees. I get no pings
except when I tow, but I simple adjust the vacuum advance with an allen
wrench to compensate.

Normal highway cruise RMP is around 2500 average (from 2000 to 3000 - 55 to
~85). An I missing something? Sure is a lot of stuff :)

I had built this engine for a regular daily driver and for towing. But I
like to do stop light grand prix and so forth.

My problem, finally :)

If I am stopped, if I try to take off fast by giving it half to full
throttle and letting the clutch out at the same type (in synch - typical
startoff) I bough down, but if I let off the gas I spin the tires all the
way up to redline (safely set at 4000 RPM) and can squeal in 2nd (LT235 75
R15 Goodywear Wrangler AT at 38 psi cold) Or if I ease into the gas I can
take off like a rocket spinning all in first and squealing in 2nd. I know
the gears are low (numerical value) - I can run like a jack rabbit off
idle, but as I approach 3rd, I catch up with the gears and it doesn't pull
as much as first or second.


>Before you get your hands dirty, there are a coupla more questions you shud
>answer:
>
>-how old is the carb, and has it ever been serviced? How many miles are
on it?
Explained above

>-do you run any particular kind of gas, and do you use a cleaner?
Mostly Diamond Shamrock with occasional Exxon and Mobil (all premium 93+
octane)
No cleaners - don't need them on a 15K mile motor

>-how well does it run? does it start well? Have you noticed a drop in
Starts good cold, hot, hot or cold outside - starts on the first crank when
hot unless I have a tank of cheap premium gas on a real hot day (95+ F).
Gas likes to evaporate.

>mileage lately
Since I went from stock restrictive 2" exhaust and manifolds, to new
exhaust and paper to K&N I went from about 16 MPG down to 10 MPG - jet
size went from 64 in primary (plate in secondary), 3.5" power valve and
black spring in diaphragm. - Mileage is bad, but performance makes it worth
it.


>-where you live, is it cool and damp in winter, or does it go below zero, or
>is it sunny and hot all the time?

I live in Texas - San Antonio to be exact - hot and dry most of the time
with mild to cold winters

>-do you have a vacuum gauge hooked up
Yep along with mechanical oil pressure. Vacuum is 17" at hot idle - 15-16"
cold idle - oil pressure is 30-35 psi hot idle and 65 psi at highway speed
- Melling high volume oil pump

>-Ever done a compression test?
Averages out to 160 - (155 to 165)

>-Is there a well-equipped holley dealer in your area?
Only one I know of is Super Shops.

>-Is your ignition in good shape, and do you have a timing light/tachometer?

Timing light and tachometer (on steering column)

>
>Once you answer all the above we can get started.


I hope thats enough to get started - geesh :)

Calling all car buffs on this one! Two people with similar problems - hmmmm

Thanks guys!

Mike

_____________________________________________

Email: mikes intx.net
Home Page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.intx.net/mikes
Ford Page: http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.intx.net/mikes/fordarea.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:37:12 -0700
From: Randy Collins
To: "'fordtrucks lofcom.com'"
Subject: RE: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio?
Message-ID:
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Fella's,

Thanks to all that responded to my 460 maximum compression ratio =
posting. =20

In one of the last posts I read there was some concerns about moving off =
topic. Most of the discussions have been regarding the performance of =
the 460. I consider this a bonus. I am very interested in what =
everyone else has done and is doing to the 460 to increase performance. =


I feel that my needs and goals for the motor portion of my project are =
similar to what a few of you have already done. My truck won't be a =
daily driver. But it will be driven on the street. The primary purpose =
of the truck is to haul the water toys to the lake. If it is really fun =
and the performance really impresses me I will probably drive it every =
chance I get. Eventually I will probably get an overhead =
camper for it. I don't care one bit about fuel mileage. If my motor =
returns mileage anywhere near the 8 to 10 miles per gallon I will be =
satisfied. I do care about reliability. I don't much care for broken =
parts. I never have and I am sure that I never will get used to this. =
I do like knowing the potential of machinery and safely taking it up to =
its limits. I don't mind if the life expectiancy of parts are decreased =
by persuring performance potentials. If I know in advance that I will =
have a 30K or 50K mile life expectancy on the motor that's OK with me. =20

I still haven't figured out what the maximum compression ratio can be =
for a 460. I am in the process of spending a lot of money on heads to =
bring up the compression ratio. The local shops tell me that 9:0 or 9:2 =
is the maximum I can safely run. Since I don't have a source for the =
mentioned copper head gaskets of greater thickness I will probably put =
the motor together at 9.1 to 1. Better safe that sorry. =20

Thanks again for everyone's advice and comments. =20

(The motor info is posted below my sig)....

Randy Collins
Boise, Idaho
rcollins micron.net

1975 Ford F250 4WD Supercab "Muscle Truck"
Soon to have the following Randy installed options:
460 C-6

Vehicle info. =20
Really heavy truck.
4.10 gear ratio.
32.8" diameter tires
C-6 Automatic
2200 RPM Stall

Motor info. =20
429 SCJ Cast Iron Intake
750 Vacuum Holley
C9VE Passenger Car heads matched to the CJ size ports
Intake Ports: cleaned up
Exhaust Ports: Hump removed, contoured and polished
Combustion Chamber Polished
Valve Size I =3D 2.190 E. =3D 1.725
Crane Gold Roller Rockers
Crane Cam #354551
In. Lift: .524
Ex. Lift .553
Duration .050
Intake 226 Degrees
Exhaust 234 Degrees
Lifters Variable Duration
I plan to install the cam advanced 4 degrees
Converter Stall 2200 RPM





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------ =_NextPart_000_01BCA2BA.21971EE0--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 03:46:16 -0500
From: "Donald R. Screen"
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Edelbrock carb
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>
> I like it's edelbrock replacement *very* much. It's WAY easier to tune,
> and it doesn't constantly leak fuel from everywhere. IMHO, YMMV...
>
> Happy motoring,
>
> Steve Delanty
>
> 1971 F100 shortbox, FE390, T-18 4-speed
>


Steve,
I recently purchased a 600 cfm Edelbrock (1406 model) and installed
it on my 390 intake manifold. I ran into a problem hooking it up
though. My 1974 F100 XLT Ranger uses rods instead of cables for the
throttle and transmission kickdown. The original 4300 series Motorcraft
carb had a transmission kickdown lever with adjusting screw on the side
of the carb in addition to the standard throttle lever linkage. The new
Edelbrock carb does not have the transmission kickdown lever as a part
of the basic carb. So I purchased a Edelbrock carb Ford Adapter for
auto transmissions. This add on linkage does have a transmission
kickdown lever with adjusting screw. But the linkage is a full 2 inches
further over from the original....ie. the throttle rod and transmission
rod don't line up with the tacked on Ford adapter. Do you know of
anyway to solve this problem? Scott Fort (from Edelbrock) told me the
adapter was only for cable operated systems, not for push rod systems
like mine..but he failed to mention what to do with the transmission
kickdown rod without the adapter being present.
I'm hoping someone else out the has installed an Edelbrock carb on an FE
motor with rod linkages and solved this problem already. I really would
like to have the kickdown rod installed.
Anybody got any idea how to fix this?

Don
Allen, Texas
1974 F100 XLT Ranger, 360V8 (390 manifold), C6, Edelbrock carb


PS. My favorite parts counter guy also confirmed what you said about
Edelbrock vs Holley....much easier to tune an Edelbrock and no leaks.
So I chose the 1406 model instead of the Holley double pumper.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:12:52 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Broken C-6
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

> From: "George Shepherd"
> Subject: Re: Broken C-6
> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:56:59 -0500

> I think Rod has a 4x4 and needs to change to the short stub
> tailshaft which mates to the transfer case input. I do believe it
> can be changed with out further dissambly than the tailpiece.

That's what I thought too but I'm so rusty now I just can't remember
for sure :-(

-- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:30:56 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Re: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:26:25 -0500
> From: Daver
> Subject: Re: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio?

>
> Rhodes lifters are an agrivation waiting to waist someones time.

That seems to be the consensus. It's occured to me that roller cams
would go a long way toward my goal since they keep the valves open
longer with the same ramp to ramp duration spec etc. I could use less
overlap and still get the high rpm I need and keep lower rpm
driveability and economy :-) Now all I have to do is find one off
the shelf that does that :-(

-- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:56:36 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Cc: bigbroncos off -road. com
Subject: Advance curves?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:12:59 -0500
> From: Mike Schwall
> Subject: Re: Holley 4BBL questions - Me too :)

> With the stock '78 advance curve, I ping on anything but 93+ octane
> at the stock 10 degree base timing and spark advance. I have been
> running 93, 94 octane gas since a day after I initially started the
> engine and have changed the mechanical advance curve for a total of
> 30 degrees at 3000 RPM, and with the vacuum advance connected I get
> 60 degrees advance at 3000 RPM (no load, free spin) Base timing is
> set at 12 degrees. I get no pings except when I tow, but I simple
> adjust the vacuum advance with an allen wrench to compensate.

I can't believe all the super high advance curves I'm hearing about
on these lists!? All the information I have (from professionals)
indicates that 38 degrees of advance is adequate for the highest
performance engines (NASCAR) which typically turn over 7k rpm
continuously. Why would you want any more than that?

NASCAR builders attempt to run as lean as they can and lean mixtures
require more advance than rich. They don't use vacs and the spec
typically is 10-12 static and 34-38 total including static so the
mechanical advance system puts in an additonal 28 degrees max. Even....


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