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fordtrucks-digest DigestVolume 97 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:

Re: Back pressure? ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Distrubutor (1967/300) ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Broken C-6 ["Rodney S. Richeson"
Re: Broken C-6 ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Distrubutor (1967/300) [sdelanty sonic.net ]
RE: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio? [Kevin Kemmerer ]
Re: Broken C-6 ["George Shepherd"
RE: 460 Headers [sdelanty sonic.net ]
RE: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio? ["Gary, 78 BBB" ]
Re: Holley 4BBL questions [marko helix.net (marko maryniak) ]
Re: Distrubutor (1967/300) [marko helix.net (marko maryniak) ]
Re: Holley 4BBL questions [sdelanty sonic.net ]
RE: Broken C-6 [DC Beatty

Administrivia:

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:14:55 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
To: bigbroncos off -road. com
Cc: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Back pressure?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

> From: "Darryl A. Regan"
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:46:02 +0000
> Subject: Re: Big Bronco digest: V2 #22

> me how it goes. Too much backpressure hurts performance and so does
> too little. WHat goes in must come out and so on.

I Know this is silly but, what exactly IS back pressure and what
causes it and what does it do to enhance performance and how? This
is a LOADED question and there are REAL answers to this but I'm not
sure I have them accurately stored away as yet.

Back pressure in and of itself MUST be detrimental no matter what
since anything which reduces scavenging has to be bad but can it be
used perhaps with or due to resonance tuning to do something usefull?
Can we put baffels in to cause back pressure but which really enhance
the resonance or other pulse tuning? Is there such a thing a pulse
tuning without any connection to resonance?

People, especially less knowledgeable people throw this term around
like it has some special purpose in engine design. I've never seen
it in print as to exacly what it's function is outside of resonance
tuning that is. Throw out pipe diameter, length, material and
resonance which is inherently associated with these three factors
through simple physics and splain to me what back pressure does????

I'm deadly serious! :-)

-- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:09:02 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Distrubutor (1967/300)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 06:11:30 -0700
> From: Jim Freyburger
> Subject: Distrubutor (1967/300)

> I've seen several discussions concerning using the Dura Spark, but
> nothing for a six. Does any one know what years to use and if a 8
> will work for a 6. Thanks

I6's had them but I'd shoot for 77 and up with the blue seal on the
module. Get the coil, module and distributor from the same vehicle
if you can, it will save you lots of grief later. The module and
coil shouldn't care how many cylinders but the distributor does of
course and you should get one from a Dura Spark engine so the
mechanical advance curve is appropriate as well. You can convert
them by changing the rotor but it won't have the right timing curve
which is CRITICAL to the drivability and economy of the system.


-- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:10:36 +0000
From: "Rodney S. Richeson"
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Broken C-6
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I broke down and had a tranny shop look at my C-6. I got the usual
answer, Rebuild it, can't be fixed has to be redone. I can't afford
that at this point, but I do have another C-6 that's out of a car. Can
I remove the tailpiece from it and slide my NP-205 onto it? I know its
wishfull thinking but what is involved with making a car tranny work
with the truck? Am I better off to pull transfer case and tranny and be
a *gasp* two wheel drive for awhile?

Thanks in advance.

Rod
77.5 F-250

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:27:06 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Broken C-6
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:10:36 +0000
> From: "Rodney S. Richeson"
> Subject: Broken C-6

> that at this point, but I do have another C-6 that's out of a car.
> Can I remove the tailpiece from it and slide my NP-205 onto it? I

Should be a direct swap. I did it with a bronco setup and a car
transmission. Had to get the short tail shaft and housing and put
them on. Be very carefull not to get ANY dirt in it when you make
the swap.

The shifter may be reversed from the truck version which you can
easily check by finding park on both transmissions and comparing the
lever position. If they are the same you're all set, other wise you
will have to reverse the shift lever on the side of the transmission
and bend some linkeage to make it work right.

You may have a wide ratio version in the truck but not in the car so
you may notice that it doesn't take off as well as it did in that
case.

-- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:47:39 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
To: FORDTRUCKS lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Distrubutor (1967/300)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Recently I found I nice used 300, hower it did no have a distrubutor
>etc.
>I've seen several discussions concerning using the Dura Spark, but
>nothing for a six. Does any one know what years to use and if a 8 will
>work for a 6. Thanks


Sure, Duraspark was on *tons* of 80's 300cid sixes.
Don't know the exact range of Years... '82-'85 is probably a sure bet,
but the range may be much wider.

I've heard that the "black box" is the same for 6's and 8's.
(or at least works fine..)
Obviously You will need the 6cyl d-spark distributor, but there's zilions
of 300" d-spark trucks, vans, and passenger cars out there.
As far as I know all the 240/300 distributors are interchangable.

I don't know if Ford still makes the big 6, but they were still being
made at least into the early 90's.

Lots of 300's even have EEC-IV Fuel injection.

I almost bought an EFI 300/6 for my truck, but they wanted *way*
too much money for it and an FE390 fell into my lap for dirt cheap..

happy motoring,

Steve Delanty

1971 F100 shortbox, FE390, T-18 4-speed

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:22:06 -0400
From: Kevin Kemmerer
To: "'fordtrucks lofcom.com'"
------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:53:47 -0400
From: Kevin Kemmerer
To: "'fordtrucks lofcom.com'"
Subject: RE: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio?
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

---snip---.

My advise to the fellow that is attempting to build an every day hobby
truck is shoot for 300 to 350 horse power using machine work and stock
parts. If you do this any good auto machine shop can help you and your
funds will go alot further. 300 to 350 horse will give a good seat of
the pants pull and beat most comaro's and mustangs from the light.

Molater

Daver


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i agree with you but for 460's i think 400 hp is easy and streetable. i =
used to run more street motors and for now my daily driver is bone stock =
(94 dodge v10 4x4) but i have almost passed the streetable limit in my =
460 ford. the reason for this actually isn't the motor build, as much =
as the high stall speed combined with 3.50 axle gears. with a stock =
converter my motor would be an excellent runner for a daily driver as =
long as the gas mileage is acceptable. my similiar 460 in my one ton =
with a manual trans runs fantastic on the street. both engines make =
over 1 hp per cubic inch.

perhaps a show of hands for those who are looking to build more power =
than needed and those who want to build an everyday motor.

i probably got off the track on this list more towards performance, but =
all subjects related to my trucks i read as some things apply to what i =
do, for example axle swaps (coming up real soon as the 1/2 ton just =
broke another yoke, electrical, some lights are being real tempermental, =
etc.

i by no means intend to get people off track of what their needs or =
requirements may be, but many of us have more than one truck and the =
second truck is the "hot rod". i think most people who are doing =
rebuilds or mild builds know not to get to radical. the people who are =
looking for a hot motor may go too radical, as the more one gets the =
more one wants.

sleddog

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:12:44 -0500
From: "George Shepherd"
To:
Subject: Re: Broken C-6
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

C-6's are C-6's except for the difference between the 351-460 bolt
patterns. Just change it out.

----------
> From: Rodney S. Richeson
> To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
> Subject: Broken C-6
> Date: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 3:10 AM
>
> I broke down and had a tranny shop look at my C-6. I got the usual
> answer, Rebuild it, can't be fixed has to be redone. I can't afford
> that at this point, but I do have another C-6 that's out of a car. Can
> I remove the tailpiece from it and slide my NP-205 onto it? I know its
> wishfull thinking but what is involved with making a car tranny work
> with the truck? Am I better off to pull transfer case and tranny and be
> a *gasp* two wheel drive for awhile?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Rod
> 77.5 F-250
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Message distributed via http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.lofcom.com/
> For help send mail with subject "HELP" to:fordtrucks-request lofcom.com
> Comments and suggestions are welcome, use: kpayne mindspring.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:42:25 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: RE: 460 Headers
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi sleddog,

Err, thanks for the 460 header info, but I think it got misdirected...
If I ever swap my FE390 for a 460 I'll keep it in mind.
Fortunately, headers were easy to do in my '71 F100 with FE.. (~:

So, while I've got You here, tell me a bit about sled pulls...

I know You drag a sled, usually with a movable weight that increases
the load as You move along, but that's about it.

How much weight is involved?

How far do You pull? What's a good average run?

How long does a run last timewise?

What is the track like? Do You pull in mud, or hard dirt, or asphalt, or?

It sounds like a fun sport, I'd like to go watch one sometime...

Happy motoring,
Steve

At 11:22 AM 8/6/97 -0400, you wrote:

>turn you steering full lock and take a measurement. estimate any
difference for up/down movement and call L&L to see if they fit (they would
know best - and i think they have a return policy). the other consideration
here, is running of the rest of the exhaust system. my headers exit the
fenderwell at the rear of the fenderwell, over the frame, dropping down past
body mount and then facing towards the rear of the truck. also, if they
have tri-y headers for your truck, and you have a generally stock or mild
motor, tri-y's may be a better choice. i can't remember which models they
make them for.
>
>sleddog
>
>----------
>From: Mike & Evan[SMTP:yasky netins.net]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 8:51 AM
>To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
>Subject: Re: 460 Headers
>
>The problem I have is: L&L had the fender well exit headers in stock and
>could ship them immediately. The in-frame style they were having problems
>with and was told it would be end of August at the earliest. Who knows how
>long I could be waiting for those! They are the same price though, and I
>can wait for a while, but I want the truck done by the time the snow
>flies!!
>Do the fender well exit kind exit above the frame rail and then outside
>the body mount? Don't they interfere with steering linkage? My truck is
>stock highboy height and it looks like my tires could rub them in a tight
>turn, especially a rough one.
>Thanks for the help!!
>
>Mike Vonhof
>yasky netins.net
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>Message distributed via http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.lofcom.com/
>For help send mail with subject "HELP" to:fordtrucks-request lofcom.com
>Comments and suggestions are welcome, use: kpayne mindspring.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:13:58 +0000
From: "Gary, 78 BBB"
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: RE: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

> From: Kevin Kemmerer
> Subject: RE: 460 Maximum Compression Ratio?
> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:53:47 -0400

>> My advise to the fellow that is attempting to build an every day
>> hobby truck is shoot for 300 to 350 horse power using machine work
>> and stock parts. If you do this any good auto machine shop can
>> help

> i agree with you but for 460's i think 400 hp is easy and
> streetable. i used to run more street motors and for now my daily

This is all very nice but what if you want to build something that
has some technical zing like roller cam and rockers and stud girdles
(even if you don't really need them) but is still streetable and not
JUST streetable but excellently so? I don't want to give up low end
torque or smoothness to gain top end and 5500 rpm would be quite
satisfactory for me but it seems that these two goals are in
conflict, at least with the 460 since the lowest roller cam profile
seems to be geared to 2500 rpm starting point. Add Rhodes lifters
and we get some of it back but what happens at the top?

Here's what I actually want: I want a growler that won't have an
asthma attack at 4k rpm. I don't really care how much power it makes
at 5500 as long as it can get there! Both versions of my 460 so far
have failed miserably in that department but they are stock
piston/porting, Melling torque cam and 600 cfm carb. I know for a
fact that 600 cfm is more than adequate to take a 460 past 5k rpm
with some power left so it must be all the other stuff that's getting
in the way. Like I should be able to do better than 80 mph in second
with a wide rato C-6 for god's sake without having to go to a 750
double pumper and hot cam, especially with 2.75 gears!

My problem is I want it to do this and get good economy too. I know
this is doable and I will eventually get it done but it's hard when
the parts aren't on the shelf for that specific application. Seems
like all anyone thinks about it raw power at any cost sort of like
open heart surgery with blood flowing all over the floor. Just as
medicine has discoverd that it's possible to do open heart surgery
without transfusions, it's possible to make this engine happen, I
just don't have a complete list of parts and configuration
particulars put together yet but I will some day :-)

-- Gary Peters --

(Mine)78 F-150, 2wd, 460, C-6
(Mine)78 Bronco, 4wd, 351M, Np 435, Np 205, 33's
(Daughter's)92 Tempo
(Daughter's)92 T-Bird
(Wife's)94 T-Bird
(Son's)90 F-150, I6
(Son's)76 Blue Bird School bus
All mine to work on, maintain etc..

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:32:07 -0700
From: marko helix.net (marko maryniak)
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Holley 4BBL questions
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>74 F250, 390V8, Factory Equipped Holley 4BBl. I have several questions about
>this carb. I turned the air cleaner cover over, to allow more air flow into
the
>carb, I want to put a K&N Air Filter on it sometime. Anyway yesterday, air
>cleaner cover turned over, I noticed two things. One it took a lot more
fuel to
>get to work, it seemed like it took twice as much fuel to get to work and back
>home. Second, while under heavy acceleration, the engine seemed to bog down
>until I lifted my foot off the accelerator pedal some. Actually I found
that if
>I would only push the pedal about 1/4 to 1/2 way down to the floor the engine
>would jump to life and go. If I floored it, the engine bogged down until I
>lifted the pedal far enough to find that sweet spot.
>
>I know I need to adjust some things on the carb, but where should I start?
>Accelerator pump travel, check the secondaries to see if they are
functioning?
>
>Any words of wisdom out there in Ford Truck land?? The last time I dealt with
>a Holley Carb was 10 or 11 years ago.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Keith Srbherbie netvalue.net
>1986 Ford Bronco II, 2.9L (I HATE LITERS) V-6, Mitsubishi 5-Speed.
>1980 Harley Davidson, XLH, Rebuilt from the frame up.
>1974 Ford F250 Ranger XLT, 390ci 4bbl, Automatic, Long Box, Style Side.
>1966 Ford F100, 240 C.I. Straight Six, Warner T-18 4-Speed, Short Box.
>My Blood runs "TRUE BLUE FORD on Four Wheels and Pure HARLEY on Two Wheels!"
>
Keith,

>From reading between the lines it sounds like things were ok prior to you
turning over the air cleaner, tho I don't wanna point fingers or nuthin'...

BTW you know that running without an air cleaner is BAAAADD for your engine,
so I won't say anything about it here 8^)

First, make sure there are no vacuum hoses disconnected which may be causing
yr problem. I think there might be one goes to the valve on the stove pipe;
also check your pcv hoses. Really, the thing shud run pretty much the same
with or without the air cleaner provided you have not buggered up the vacuum
system. The only thing 'flipping the breather' does is reduce air
restriction at high rpms, as well as to allow more equalized airflow over
the whole circumference of the cleaner. This shudn't affect mileage greatly
and if I may say so yr mileage may have been more affected by you stomping
on it on yr way to work than by anything else 8^)

Before you get your hands dirty, there are a coupla more questions you shud
answer:

-how old is the carb, and has it ever been serviced? How many miles are on it?
-do you run any particular kind of gas, and do you use a cleaner?
-how well does it run? does it start well? Have you noticed a drop in
mileage lately (other than after flipping the air cleaner)
-where you live, is it cool and damp in winter, or does it go below zero, or
is it sunny and hot all the time?
-do you have a vacuum gauge hooked up, and if not, would you consider
hooking one up?
-look on the "stack" on the primaries (metal casting housing the venturi and
the choke plate) and read the LIST number and post it so we can find out
from Jim Hurd what kinda stuff's supposed to be in it.
-are there any modifications on your engine, i.e. headers, wild cam, no2
injection, blower (oops got a little carried away there) that you have done?
Other than the carb how is your engine anyway?
-Ever done a compression test?
-Is there a well-equipped holley dealer in your area?
-Is your ignition in good shape, and do you have a timing light/tachometer?

Once you answer all the above we can get started.


marko in vancouver
marko helix.net
71 f250 4x4, 360 holley 4bbl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:38:06 -0700
From: marko helix.net (marko maryniak)
To: fordtrucks lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Distrubutor (1967/300)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 06:11:30 -0700
>> From: Jim Freyburger
>> Subject: Distrubutor (1967/300)
>
>> I've seen several discussions concerning using the Dura Spark, but
>> nothing for a six. Does any one know what years to use and if a 8
>> will work for a 6. Thanks
>

No, as Gary Peters said, the box and coil don't care how many cylinders you
have, but the distributor does. Look inside the distributor on say a V8.
Instead of the cam with bumps on it to push the points open, you will see a
spider-like thingy on the distributor shaft with eight "legs" sticking out
(eight cylinders, eight legs, get the picture?) Each time one of these
"legs" passes by the pickup mounted kinda where the points used to be, it
makes a magnetic pulse. This pulse is instantly carried to the box which
then grounds the coil and causes it to discharge a spark thru the cap into
the plug bla bla bla.

Now, for a six-cylinder, you'd need a cockroach (6 legs), not a spider (8).


marko in vancouver
marko helix.net
71 f250 4x4 360 electronic ignition

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:44:29 -0700
From: sdelanty sonic.net
To: FORDTRUCKS lofcom.com
Subject: Re: Holley 4BBL questions
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>74 F250, 390V8, Factory Equipped Holley 4BBl. I have several questions about
>this carb. I turned the air cleaner cover over, to allow more air flow into
the
>carb, I want to put a K&N Air Filter on it sometime. Anyway yesterday, air
>cleaner cover turned over, I noticed two things. One it took a lot more
fuel to
>get to work, it seemed like it took twice as much fuel to get to work and back
>home. Second, while under heavy acceleration, the engine seemed to bog down
>until I lifted my foot off the accelerator pedal some. Actually I found
that if
>I would only push the pedal about 1/4 to 1/2 way down to the floor the engine
>would jump to life and go. If I floored it, the engine bogged down until I
>lifted the pedal far enough to find that sweet spot.


Yeow. That's a weird one. It seems rather unlikely that just flipping
the air cleaner lid would cause this.

I ran my air cleaner lid flipped over on my FE390 for a while,
(edelbrock/carter AFB) and the only real difference I noticed
was that I could hear that beautiful "big motor with WOT 4-bbl" sound
a little better. (-:

I finally modified my setup to use a taller 13" x 3.5" (instead of
13" x 2.5") air cleaner, but I really can't tell any difference
in performance or mileage with stock vs. modified system.
Other than prettier sound...

Flipping the air cleaner lid eliminates the HAC valve so the engine
doesn't get any warm air off the exhaust manifold stove anymore,
but that shouldn't be noticable exept during warm up or very cold
weather. Mine's dissabled and works fine..

Sooo, if You put the lid back right-side up does the problem go away?

I would wonder if anything else got disturbed while You were
under there..

Could the choke be not opening now?
Choke heat tube disconnected, or wire off if it's electric choke,
or linkage bound up?

Could any vacuum lines have got disconnected?

What else did You do at the same time? Did You just open the hood,
flip the cleaner lid and close the hood, or.. ?

I can't imagine that flipping the lid could upset the carb mixture
that much. I have a pretty low opinion of holley carbs in general,
but they ain't *that* twitchy...

>I know I need to adjust some things on the carb, but where should I start?
>Accelerator pump travel, check the secondaries to see if they are functioning?

Yes. And float bowl levels.
*And check the power valve as well.* they are a frequent source
of trouble.
YOUR symptoms are consistant with a bad power valve.. Sh!tty mileage,
poor response under certain load conditions, etc.

How long has it been since it was freshened up? Maybe it's a good
excuse to pull it apart, clean it up, new gaskets, new power valve,
etc...

>Any words of wisdom out there in Ford Truck land?? The last time I dealt with
>a Holley Carb was 10 or 11 years ago.

You haven't missed much. In a fit of total frustration, I finally beat
my holley for about 5 minutes with a 6 lb. sledge hammer.
( I have a 1" tall holley 1850 hanging in my garage. )-:
I'm sure it will cause me no further trouble now...
It wasn't the first holley to cause me grief, but it was likely the last.

I like it's edelbrock replacement *very* much. It's WAY easier to tune,
and it doesn't constantly leak fuel from everywhere. IMHO, YMMV...

Happy motoring,

Steve Delanty

1971 F100 shortbox, FE390, T-18 4-speed

------------------------------

Date: 06 Aug 97 19:39:41 EDT
From: DC Beatty
To: "'INTERNET:fordtrucks lofcom.com'"
Subject: RE: Broken C-6
Message-ID:

Rod. Are you talking about changing from a slip-in yoke tailpiece to a bolt-on
yoke tailpiece, or vice-versa? If so you must change the output shaft, which
involves disassembly of the tranny. The output shaft cannot be removed by just
removing the tailpiece of the tranny.

What exactly is the C-6 doing that needs a "rebuild?"

Good luck,

DC Beatty
1967 F-100 352
1974 Maverick 302

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Subject: Broken C-6

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