From: owner-offroad-list-digest ford-trucks.com (offroad-list-digest)
To: offroad-list-digest ford-trucks.com
Subject: offroad-list-digest V2 #154
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offroad-list-digest Thursday, June 17 1999 Volume 02 : Number 154



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - Offroad Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE offroad - Re: 4 spd/auto (long)
Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual
FTE offroad - Transport
Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual
Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual
Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual
Re: FTE offroad - Transport
FTE offroad - Automaticallymanualtranz
Re: FTE offroad - 4 speed for auto swap
Re: FTE offroad - 4 speed for auto swap
Re: FTE offroad - C6 in for NP435 in a 79
Re: FTE offroad - 4 speed for auto swap
Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual
FTE offroad - 1999 superduty lift questions..

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Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:02:50 -0700
From: John Elder
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - Re: 4 spd/auto (long)

Well said bro'


At 08:27 AM 6/13/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Here are a few points of comparison between manual and automatic
>transmissions:
>
>Manual - Advantages

>Manual - Disadvantages
>-
>Automatic - Advantages

>Automatic - Disadvantages
>Alan
>
John M Elder
Senior Technical Training Specialist
Globalstar Training
S-204A
Office: (619) 658-2003
Cell: (619) 254-0084
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:20:59 -0700
From: John Elder
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual

ok, my .02. Automatics are much smarter than manuals, i.e. they are much
better at keeping you inside the torque curve of your powerplant. I've
driven and raced just about all types. makes, and models of both worlds,
and yes a stick is much more exciting and requires lots of activity in the
cockpit and make it seem like you are going really fast and doing awesome
things. However, even though you just put it in drive and go... I go a A
LOT more places an evenly matched standard rig will never go. It's mainly
a matter of smooth application of torque to the drive train. Shocking the
tires or spining them is highly undesirable on a steep hill or a mud bog.

Take a look around at the race day winners, and see what they have. I'd
bet most of them drive autos and let their computer do the thinkin' about
when to shift.

But yes a stick SEEMs cooler..... But when one gets older and wiser....
and tireder is that a word. We like to arrive at the stop without breaking
a sweat.

At 01:54 PM 6/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>> Why on earth would you want to switch TO a standard though?
>>
>>Well this is going to start a whole new thread! Why on earth do people
>>buy automatics to begin with if they can master the fine art of
>>clutching?
>
>
>>I always thought of it as something for the lazy or incapable.. OK I'm
>>a minority since something like 90% of new vehicles are automatics but I
>>still snort in disdain when I see a nice truck or sporty car with an
>>auto..
>
>Amen ... the phrase "oh its an automatic" was heard quite often when I was
>looking for a car. I really wanted a V6 'stang (yes a V6), but there were
>none around with a 5spd (okay 1 that was 2yrs old with 83,000 on it). I
>ended up "settling" for the V8 5spd. I love it to death, but the money I
>could've saved by getting the V6, and the balance of the car would have
>made it a ball ... of course now I look down my nose at those same cars
>that I wanted so bad a year ago ... funny how attitudes change huh ?
>
>
> Sort of off topic but the only fault I find with a Prowler is
>>the unavailability of a 'real' transmission.. Auto Stick.. whoopee.. I
>>can do that in a station wagon; just have to be more careful about
>>moving the shift lever!
>>
>AMEN!!!!! The Lincoln LS is the same way! I love the idea behind the car,
>and would like to drive one sometime, but dang can't you put a manual
>behind it ?!?!?!?
>
>
>Just my 2cents
>
>wish
>
>Links http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/links.html
>'73 1/2 ton 4x4 Ford http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/truck.html
>'96 Mustang GT http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~wish/mustang.html
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>
John M Elder
Senior Technical Training Specialist
Globalstar Training
S-204A
Office: (619) 658-2003
Cell: (619) 254-0084
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 01:49:22 -0700
From: "J.S.H."
Subject: FTE offroad - Transport

"I'm offering anybody who has trailering experience $1,000 dollars to
deliver this truck within the Ohio State borderlines, Period."

Pick up a Hemmings Motor News.There are about a dozen transporter ads
in there.
I spent some time transporting classic cars and I know if you are not
in hurry you can get that fine piece of automotive art(I may be biased
as I own one) transported "stand by" for $1000.
You would have to wait until they have a truck in the area to get the
stand by rate.If they dispatch a truck to Montana just for your Ford the
price goes way up.
The problem with stand by is that they may have a truck on the way
to Montana as we speak or it could be three months.
BTW the company I worked for is no longer in business or I would
personaly help you out.
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:22:37 -0400
From: James Oxley
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual

John Elder wrote:
>
> ok, my .02. Automatics are much smarter than manuals, i.e. they are much
> better at keeping you inside the torque curve of your powerplant.

Unless you have full manual valve body, which most autos don't, you
don't have exact control of your shift points. I can see auto's keeping
you below an RPM where your torque curve may fall off, but this assumes
that your torque curve indeed does fall off and/or that the manual
driver knows zero about their torque curve and where to shift to to
mazimize it.

I've
> driven and raced just about all types. makes, and models of both worlds,
> and yes a stick is much more exciting and requires lots of activity in the
> cockpit

Sticks are usualy faster with an extra gear and/or less power loss.
Now if your talking 600 Hp vs 630Hp, the power loss is not significant,
but if your talking 150 vs 170, or something in that range, then the
auto power loss becomes significant.

> things. However, even though you just put it in drive and go... I go a A
> LOT more places an evenly matched standard rig will never go. It's mainly
> a matter of smooth application of torque to the drive train. Shocking the
> tires or spining them is highly undesirable on a steep hill or a mud bog.

Sorry, I don't agree on a mud bog. High wheel speed is many times the
only thing allowing the tire to clean itself and not turn into a racing
slick. I do agree that an auto is better in mud bogs (cause it can shift
without stopping) and probably most hill climbs. BUT, if overall gear
for rockcrawling is your concern, then older manauls win with a first
gear on the order of 3 times the ratio of an automatic. I know, I've
heard it all about how the torque converter gives you an infinate ratio
way beyond what creeper gear in a manual gives you. It just doesn't seem
to work without mucho bucks in an auto and torque converter. I've never
driven an auto that has the throttle response that my stock, very low HP
351M and granny first has. stockish auto's are just not linear enough
for me in throttle application vs power ouput to the wheels.


> Take a look around at the race day winners, and see what they have. I'd
> bet most of them drive autos and let their computer do the thinkin' about
> when to shift.

Probably, but a clutchless manual with compter controlled idle control
would really be the way to go. Auto's can not match revs for a down
shift entering a turn.

> But yes a stick SEEMs cooler..... But when one gets older and wiser....
> and tireder is that a word. We like to arrive at the stop without breaking
> a sweat.

I agree, too bad it takes so much money to get an auto to the point of
being acceptable in shift feel, shift points, manual control, throttle
response....

OX
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:21:09 EDT
From: JUMPINFORD aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual

In a message dated 6/16/99 1:25:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jelder qualcomm.com writes:

better at keeping you inside the torque curve of your powerplant.
>>
I also have to disagree here, the auto in my truck shifts at approx
4000-4500. My engine however will turn approximately 6000-6500. Unless I
manually shift, I cant even compete with a 305 bowtoy.


about when to shift. >>

My truck for sure doesnt have a computer. And the computer in all the 97
F-150s Ive driven really make downright crappy shifts if you've got the
throttle pressed firmly on the carpet, taking a full 5-6 sec to shift. I
know I can shift an old NP435 in about 2 even at most while at full throttle .

Darrell Duggan
74 F-350 "Tweety"
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:56:54 -0700
From: John Elder
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual

At 09:21 AM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 6/16/99 1:25:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>jelder qualcomm.com writes:
>
>better at keeping you inside the torque curve of your powerplant.
>>>
>I also have to disagree here, the auto in my truck shifts at approx
>4000-4500. My engine however will turn approximately 6000-6500. Unless I
>manually shift, I cant even compete with a 305 bowtoy.
>

But is it still making torque above 4500?

A common strategy in drag racing is to short shift 2nd on wide ratio 4spds
to stay in the torque/power band.

>
>about when to shift. >>
>
>My truck for sure doesnt have a computer. And the computer in all the 97
>F-150s Ive driven really make downright crappy shifts if you've got the
>throttle pressed firmly on the carpet, taking a full 5-6 sec to shift.

Sonds like they need some service.
I
>know I can shift an old NP435 in about 2 even at most while at full
throttle .
>
>Darrell Duggan
>74 F-350 "Tweety"
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>
John M Elder
Senior Technical Training Specialist
Globalstar Training
S-204A
Office: (619) 658-2003
Cell: (619) 254-0084
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:37:44 -0400
From: Tony Marino
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - Transport

At 01:49 AM 6/16/99 -0700, you wrote:
>"I'm offering anybody who has trailering experience $1,000 dollars to
>deliver this truck within the Ohio State borderlines, Period."
>
>Pick up a Hemmings Motor News.There are about a dozen transporter ads
>in there.
> I spent some time transporting classic cars and I know if you are not
>in hurry you can get that fine piece of automotive art(I may be biased
>as I own one) transported "stand by" for $1000.
> You would have to wait until they have a truck in the area to get the
>stand by rate.If they dispatch a truck to Montana just for your Ford the
>price goes way up.
> The problem with stand by is that they may have a truck on the way
>to Montana as we speak or it could be three months.
> BTW the company I worked for is no longer in business or I would
>personaly help you out.

Ha ha ha-- yeah, I've been waiting about a month and a half now, and I
realize the traffic going up that way isn't very substancial, and if I were
to just pay for a full load on a flatbed semi it would kill me price wise.
I figured that while I wait for a guy to come through, I might as well
offer it up to the list and see what kinds of leads I get. Call me an
overanxious kid, hell, it's not like I need to drive the thing, but I would
like to have it before summers end so I can get it all cleaned up. I was
quoted $850, $910, and $975, from 3 different people IF they find a truck,
so I figured, hey, Let's see if $1,000 is enough to make somebody happy to
help me out!

I appreciate the feedback, Thanks

Tony Marino
tony pscico.com
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.pscico.com/~tony

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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:58:36 -0700
From: "Chris Samuel"
Subject: FTE offroad - Automaticallymanualtranz

John wrote:
- -> S'cuse me uh,... I seem to recall seeing uh "Thousands" of PowerGlides
in
bracket racers.

And they do this for consistency not for any other reason, ok $$$ PGldz are
cheap!
The idea is to hit you dial in!, not be fast!
IMHO Heads up racing is so much more fun!

- -> Also Pro-Stockers still have a planetary gear system, and
the the clutches are settable to act like a band does in an Auto, all the
linkages are direct too (seperate handles for each gear). That is not
shall we say the best tranny for tree crawlin'.

True. It 'is' a MANUAL though :-)

- ->Funnys and Top-Fuel also,.. yep... planetary two-speeds with lock-up
clutches.

So letz see here
Auto's for the amateur classes and manuals, sophisticated manuals true, but
manuals in the pro classes.
Yep, I agree, you made your point:-)

However all that being said I can't think of anyone racing a truck off road
that runs a manual trans. So I guess I just made your point.

Personally I like em'both but my Bronco is a T 18 and I wouldn't have it any
other way! I can simply comfortably wheel better with a real truck Trans
then I can with a auto. Hey it'z just me, what I like and thatz that! Dad on
the other-hand has a bum knee and that's why he sold the Bronco to me. He
couldn't comfortably drive it.
As to the Auto being "the" Trans to have in the NW well if it works for you
cool!
I been wheeling here for 20+ years and driving a manual for almost all of
it, don't think I'd agree.
And that my friends is why Henrys company built em both wayz!

Muel
79 Bronco
>

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Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 06:51:40 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - 4 speed for auto swap

>provides some cushioning to the drivetrain to prevent parts breakage. I'll
>just have to stay out of the deep water.

What's the deal with auto transmissions and deep water? The only problem I
know of is with a manual, water can get inbetween the clutch causing it to
slip..



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Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 06:57:11 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - 4 speed for auto swap

>Well aside from the low first gear in most manuals, automatics are the way
>to go for most of the trails here in the NW. When you are climbing a hill
>that is too sttep to back down, it is very nice to be able to have a foot on
>the brakes and one on the gas.

You can do that with a standard too.. I've even got them going from a stop
by pressing all three pedals at the same time :) .. the main advantage
about auto transmission is that you don't have a clutch to burn, and the
smoother power. And you can't get water inbetween your clutch. I like the
older transmissions where you can also lock them in 2nd, for even smoother
power..



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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:58:10 -0700
From: Bas van der Veer
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - C6 in for NP435 in a 79

>> At 10:17 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> >that's ood, I'm looking to put a 4 speeed in place of my C6. I heard that
>> >it would be quite the task...but I'm not sure.
>
>Not *TOO* bad really if you can find a pedal assembly and other related

I didn't write that though.... I wrote I'd like to have had a C6 instead of
a C4, no plans on taking mine out though. Does anybody here know how big
the difference in these is?

>bits at a scrap yard. Just make sure that the vehicle isn't like old
>Mopars that had differing transmission humps in the floor pan else

I have a '78 bronco and .. well I'd probably have to cut some holes in the
floor.

>> And I would think it would be kinda cool to replace my C4 with a C6, and
>> maybe later down the road install a 460. Will make my bronco go like a
>> rocket - wheee!
>Hmm.. a 460 with a granny low 4 speed.. wow!

hmm, well in low gearing my 351M is powerful enough. Either it goes or
something (probably my front hubs) will have a very hard time keeping up :)

>> Why on earth would you want to switch TO a standard though?
>Well this is going to start a whole new thread! Why on earth do people
>buy automatics to begin with if they can master the fine art of
>clutching? Let's see.. the manual is better on gas, gives better
>acceleration, is lighter (usually), more reliable, gives the driver a
>much higher degree of control and clutch replacement is possible by the
>casual DIYer at 1/4 or better of the cost of a rebuild for a 'shiftless'

Can't deny that.. it's just that I grew up with standards and after I drove
an automatic I realised I liked it much better. My C4 still allows me to
lock in 1st or 2nd, and even in drive I can influence it pretty well to do
what I want.

>unit that's beyond the capabilities of all but the hard core DIY (and
>most professionals!). Just a small example but the 'published' 0-60
>times for Kim's 93 Capri are 10.7 with no turbo and manual Vs.
>13.something with no turbo and automatic. Guess which one we have!

So you get the privilege of triggering the traffic light so it'll go green
by the time I get there. Guess who's better on gas now! :)

>the unavailability of a 'real' transmission.. Auto Stick.. whoopee.. I
>can do that in a station wagon; just have to be more careful about
>moving the shift lever!

Didn't dodge at some point make standards with some sort of torque
converter? My uncle mentioned he had a carwhere you only needed the clutch
to put it in gear but not to stop in gear.

>As always just my opinion and not meant to inflame people with other
>views.. sometimes in deep sand as I slow during shifting I think about

Neither do I ..I personally just like automatics, that's all.


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:10:29 -0700
From: George Miller
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - 4 speed for auto swap

Bas van der Veer wrote:
>
> >Well aside from the low first gear in most manuals, automatics are the way
> >to go for most of the trails here in the NW. When you are climbing a hill
> >that is too sttep to back down, it is very nice to be able to have a foot on
> >the brakes and one on the gas.
>
> You can do that with a standard too.. I've even got them going from a stop
> by pressing all three pedals at the same time :) .. the main advantage
> about auto transmission is that you don't have a clutch to burn, and the
> smoother power. And you can't get water inbetween your clutch. I like the
> older transmissions where you can also lock them in 2nd, for even smoother
> power..

Ford had an entire series of autos with Drive 1 and drive 2 indicators
on the column mounted gear selector. Their advertising in that era used
the Drive 2 as a feature to get the rig moving on snow, ice or mud.
Second gear. Drive one had a circle around the 1 to indicate it was the
'regular' forward driving selection.

I run a 700 rpm converter behind a 460 that idles, in gear, at those
rpms. A C6 with a shift kit is the trans. When I was living in real 4
season country, taking off on ice or snow was a matter of using the go
pedal to a torque level that moved the mass. No slippage eliminates
launching ability for smoking the tires but reduces the trans heat and
provides torque, with cubes, on demand.

I used to watch loaded rigs with standard transmissions and sub 400ci
engines rev it up to where their best torque range was and feather the
clutch in. If you were headed up a snow covered logging road, you stayed
well behind them. Some drivers have that touch that enables them to use
a clutch like the design features of an auto trans. I'm stuck with
reflexes that fall below, probably well below, requirements to do
authorized carrier landings with an F18.

George Miller
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:50:09 -0400
From: Tim Turner
Subject: Re: FTE offroad - auto vs manual

John Elder wrote:
>
> ok, my .02. Automatics are much smarter than manuals,

So is this computer I'm typing my reply on *BUT* I'm making the reply
not the processor. I'd also disagree about the knowledge.. sometimes a
downshift due to more throttle is a good way to get stuck. The auto
sees more throttle/load and says OK next gear down. In deep sand 2nd or
3rd gear low range and I hit a patch of really boggy stuff I'm glad
that I can keep the transmission where it is and let the B-II grunt it's
way out. If it's real bad then I'll stop and go from 1st and I haven't
already buried myself from the downshift the auto would have made for
me. Just an informal observation, but when I hook a chain/strap to
someone it's got automatic tranny and or hubs. (barring pilot error or
mechanical breakage.) Probably 60% of my off roading is done solo so
I'll stick to my manual tranny and hubs to maximize my chances of not
needing the radio or DCS phone for a high dollar recovery from who knows
where.

> i.e. they are much
> better at keeping you inside the torque curve of your powerplant.

I'll have to disagree here as well.. With the popularity of SUVs and
trucks the CAFE requirement is harder to meet and it's set up for best
fuel mileage not performance or engine life. (True for manuals as
well.. try actually using the 'shift' light on one and see what the
truck performs like.. personally I'm not fond of lugging the engine
> around at 1500 RPM with it's lower oil pressure Vs. 2000.)


> However, even though you just put it in drive and go... I go a A
> LOT more places an evenly matched standard rig will never go.

I'm stock other than 31s; bring a similar truck (85 B-II) and see if you
can get me stuck where yours gets through. For what *I* use my truck
for I dont think it'll happen.

> It's mainly
> a matter of smooth application of torque to the drive train.

Which cant always be done with an auto. Kinda hard to slip the clutch.

> Shocking the
> tires or spining them is highly undesirable on a steep hill or a mud bog.

News to me.. just got unstuck today by a similar technique on a
grassy/muddy off camber slope. I was being stubborn though.. didnt feel
like getting out to engage the front hubs knowing they had good traction
since I was already over the hump and just needed a bump to get away
from the high center condition I was in. Also as someone else stated
wheel spin IS desirable in certain mud conditions to maintain progress.

>
> Take a look around at the race day winners, and see what they have. I'd
> bet most of them drive autos and let their computer do the thinkin' about
> when to shift.

Lets find out! Anybody got access to the data of what trannies are in
the various SCORE trucks?

>
> But yes a stick SEEMs cooler.....

No, it seems like more work, but for control there's no substitute.

> But when one gets older and wiser....

I wouldn't say wiser.. although hopefully older means better able to
handle the $1200+ cost of rebuilding that shiftless box every few years
instead of a $3-400 clutch.

> and tireder is that a word. We like to arrive at the stop without breaking
> a sweat.

No flame intended but how much effort is really involved in moving one
arm and one foot every so often? On a semi related note I have air
tools out the wazoo, but they dont get used much as I prefer the feel of
my hand tools. Just as I can feel a nut getting tight as I'm removing
it so too is the feedback from a manual. Better to stop before the
damage is done than to be SOL on a trail.

Again.. not faulting anyone for buying an auto, but pretty unhappy that
it's not an option in many vehicles. I will not buy a 4x4 without one
and damn hard pressed to buy *any* vehicle that has an automatic.


Tim Turner/Manic Mechanic
Custer Auto Repair
Wilmington NC USA
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:27:12 EDT
From: Bogginf350 ....

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