fordtrucks97up-digest Friday, May 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 068



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 And Newer Trucks Digest
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In this issue:

Re: Invoice prices ["Union Auto" ]
Re: When ["Union Auto" ]
Ford 150 Flareside Survey! [jamann JJMA.Com]
Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems [Robert Hill
Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems ["Union Auto"
Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems [Robert Hill
Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems ["Union Auto"
Ford Technical Service Hotline ["Jeff Schapker" ]
Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems ["Union Auto"
Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems ["Frank Bures"
Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems [RAMWORKER
Re: Ford Technical Service Hotline ["Union Auto" ]
Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems ["Union Auto"
Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems [KWkM3 ]
97 F250HD spark knock [jbasler cape.com]

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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:52:32 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: Invoice prices

The only way you can get the FDAF assessment removed is to sell it to a
major fleet. The only advantage to a sold Vs stock order is that if the
prices go up the person who's name you put on it will get the lower price.
Also on occasion Ford will do things to reward people who have to wait
extended periods of time on a sold order. They probably won't on pickups,
but on Expeditions it was taking 6 months to get one so they were sending
chairs to people to help keep them happy.

Nathan
- -----Original Message-----
From: KWkM3
To: fordtrucks97up ListService.net
Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: Invoice prices


>In a message dated 98-04-29 11:50:38 EDT, you write:
>
>
Their
> prices are correct except on top of the invoice Ford Bills us for the
amount
> of fuel the vehicle is shipped with ($9-25 worth) and every region adds a
> FDAF assessment (Ford Dealer Advertising Fund). This varies slightly
region
> to region and from different car lines. It is usually around $140. This
> money is used for the regional promotions. For example, my region as 6
> months free fuel on ZX2, $250 additional rebate on Ranger 4X4, and free
> bedliners in Ranger and all F-series trucks (starting tomorrow). However
> DOC fees and other charges are not real Ford charges and who knows what
else
> somebody might try to slip in.
>
> Nathan Bernard >>
>
>Yes but isnt it true that you dont charge the fdaf if the truck was an
>order?(i.e. not off the lot)
>
>Harry
>+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer --------------+
>| Send posts to fordtrucks97up listservice.net, |
>| List removal instructions on the website. |
>+----------------- Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com -----------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:56:04 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: When

It is hard to tell. The hold just says TBD (to be determined) for time to
schedule. I have seen these TBD holds last for 6 months. However, I have
also seen them come off hold in three weeks. I reason (this can often be a
mistake when dealing with Ford) that this would be a short term hold. There
is too big of market to loose in this area.

Nathan Bernard
Union Auto, Inc.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Lee Haefele
To: fordtrucks97up ListService.net
Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 6:12 PM
Subject: When


>So, I ordered my F-350 4X4, DRW, Cab-chassis end of Feb, get notice of
>"On Hold, TBD" (due to V-10 & DRW) end of April (# !*%!), When is it
>likely that I will receive this truck???? :-(
>Lee Haefele

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 9:56:52 -0500
From: jamann JJMA.Com
Subject: Ford 150 Flareside Survey!

If you or anyone you know owns an 1995-98 F150 Flareside, GREAT! Have=20
yourself or them take a look at the after wheelwells=2E At the fowrad=20
portion of the trim, notice if there is any 'pitting' of the paint=2E=20=
My=20
truck has only 11k miles and this portion of the truck is causing an=20
upward draft or redirection of the sand and debris on the road=2E This=
=20
then chips away at the paint in the area of the foward part of the=20
after wheelwells=2E The paint on the truck as well as the paint on the=
=20
wheelwell trim is dissappearing=2E So if you could help me out and=20
respond with any information about this I would greatly appriciate it=2E=
=20
When you reply, give the vehicle identification number and mileage=2E
So far the best cost effective solution is to have Ford place a runner=
=20
board assembly on the vehicle=2E In doing so, the muffler exhaust also=
=20
would have to be modified to fit the new assembly=2E =20
Thankyou You can reply to: jamann jjma=2Ecom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:07:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Hill
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems

Quick question!!

If the Powerstroke is so great and the Cummins so lousy, why did Ford buy
Cummins?

Don't get me wrongfor I am a die hard Ford man; however, having owned a
powerstroke and my dad a Cummins, I hate to admit it, but the Cummins wins
hands down. I was very disappointed in my Powerstroke so much that if I
buy another diesel anytime soon, it will have to be a Dodge.

Sorry guys, while I am a Ford man, even I must admit my dad's truck seems
to be much better than my Powerstroke ever was.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:09:52 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems

I've read in the TDR that Ford not Chevy had the Diesel market in the 80's
then Dodge took it for a couple of years in 1991 and then in 1994 Ford took
back over and now leads by a wide margin. I assume you are talking about
light trucks since Dodge doesn't build anything over 1 ton. As for overall
truck sales (full size) Dodge sold about 300,000 and Ford sold 800,000 last
year. Chevy and GMC were just behind Ford. So I don't know what you think
a minority is. As for problems with the Power Stroke the only common
problems (there are occasional odd problems, everything brakes) is on late
1996 and early 1997's there was a bad batch of injectors. CAT didn't flow
test them at idle so they've been going bad. We also had some problems with
Cam sensors occasionally. Both of these parts has been changed on the 99
SD. The people around here I don't know who had the name first both used
it in the 50's.

As for price check out a 3/4 ton extended cab Dodge Vs. Ford. A SD has 4
doors standard and is still less money than a standard 2 door Club Cab, and
if you go Quad cab it is a crazy price difference. Especially considering
you are comparing a 98 to a 99. As for technology and features the SD has 4
wheel disc brakes, a better ride using a simpler suspension, much better
Gasoline engines, a more sophisticated Diesel.

Mileage wise, The gasoline Ford's will clobber the Dodge. The Dodge uses an
old inefficient design, and Ford uses modern OHC engines to increase both
power and mileage. In Trailer Life the tested the 5.4L Vs 5.9L Vs 5.7L and
the Dodge had the lowest performance and the worst mileage. The Chevy was
close to the Ford, though. and in Diesels the 97 Power Stroke and the 12
valve Cummins got about the same mileage, but now the 99 is getting about 1
MPG better than the 97 and everyone with an ISB around here is getting about
2 MPG worse than their 12 valve did (comparing all four in brake in, maybe
they'll change after 10k miles)


Nathan
Union Auto, Inc.
- -----Original Message-----
From: RAMWORKER
To: fordtrucks97up ListService.net
Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems



>
>Agreed. The new 24 valve Cummins (I.S.B.) will not win a race with a late
>model Power Stroke, although I do think they will pull heavy loads
together.
>Dodge / Cummins did not take over the hot shot trucking industry from Ch*vy
>with an inferior product in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Ford's are
still
>a minority in this market, but the new Super Duty F550 and Power Stroke
>combined with the new electronic controls on the 24 valve Cummins may
change
>that mix in the near future. I have heard Ford has had problems with the
>electronic controls and so has Dodge. I hope to hear much more about the
>Super Duty from this list. BTW, who had the name "Super Duty" first,
Pontiac
>or Ford?
>
>> Also they start the Dudge crew cab rumor a little lower.
>
>A little lower? There will NOT be a Dodge crew cab in the foreseeable
future
>
>> So I would say a
>>couple of Dudge fanatics are trying to mess with the Ford list.
>
>I haven't seen this, was it recent? I'm only on the '97 and up list, could
>that have been on one of the other Ford lists? If you still have that,
would
>you be kind enough to forward it to me?
>
>> Can you
>> blame them they are way behind in technology, options, power, mileage and
>> still cost more!
>
>Can you be specific about technology, price, and options? The other items
are
>subject to the old Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV) syndrome of E.P.A.
>disclaimers. I think ALL the heavy duty trucks are extremely overpriced.
>
>Best Regards,
> Robert Stout

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:21:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Hill
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems

So what kind of mileage should I get with my truck? It is a 97 F250 with
a 5.4 engine and trailer tow package. I get 13 on the average and 8 while
towing. Should this be higher?

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:58:54 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems

What gears does your truck have Vs. what his has. The 4.10 does not perform
near as well as the 3.55 on the flat ground. I have had many Cummins owners
say how great they are, but my best sales to is to take 'em out and race
'em. This is comparing Power Stroke that is not broken in to Cummins that
usually have 50k + miles and most have the pump turned up. I've only been
beat once. And this is by a 95 Cummins with TST kit oversized injectors,
Different turbo and a list of other mods a mile long. He only beat me by
about 2 truck lengths in the quarter. So either your Power Stroke is not
running right or you are not comparing equal trucks. Also Ford sold it's
shares in Cummins because of Navistar's HEUI injection design was more
useable for a truck. If you look at Cummins better engines (ISM, ISC) you
will see that they have a better injection system than the ISB Dodge uses.
The ISB is basically like the Chevy 6.5L. It uses an electronically
controlled mechanical pump (ask a 6.5L owner how many pumps they've
replaced). The ISM has capabilities like the Power Stroke to control
injector pressures individually for each cylinder and also has rate shaping
capability to allow pressures to vary to make for easier detonation. So
yes, Cummins makes good engines but the ones Dodge uses are a cheaper with
fewer capabilities than the top of the line Power Stroke. Also the Power
Stroke lends itself very well to the EEC-V Ford computer system that
controls everything else in the truck and is reprogramable. The Cummins is
a separate entity in the Dodge and will not lend itself to Dealer
maintenance very well.

Nathan
- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Hill
To: Union Auto
Cc: fordtrucks97up ListService.net
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems


>Quick question!!
>
>If the Powerstroke is so great and the Cummins so lousy, why did Ford buy
>Cummins?
>
>Don't get me wrongfor I am a die hard Ford man; however, having owned a
>powerstroke and my dad a Cummins, I hate to admit it, but the Cummins wins
>hands down. I was very disappointed in my Powerstroke so much that if I
>buy another diesel anytime soon, it will have to be a Dodge.
>
>Sorry guys, while I am a Ford man, even I must admit my dad's truck seems
>to be much better than my Powerstroke ever was.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:20:02 -0500
From: "Jeff Schapker"
Subject: Ford Technical Service Hotline

Does anyone know this phone number?
Thanks, Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:31:52 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems

Quoting from Trailer Life June 1997 issue:

Dodge Ram 1500 5.9L V-8 4x4 with 3.9 gears Club cab 4x4 Auto Vs. Chevy
K2500 5.7L V-8 4x4 with 3.73 gears Extended cab 4x4 auto Vs. F-250 5.4L V-8
supercab 4x4 Auto 3.73 gears.

acceleration empty 0-60
Ford 9.5 seconds
Chevy 10.0
Dodge 10.0

Towing 0-60 (Mallard 32Z bunkhouse model trailers 6,160 lb.)
Chevy 30.4
Ford 30.5
Dodge 36.3

Hillclimb performance, towing MPH at 6% grade second gear, 9% grade 1st
gear
Ford 50, 39 mph
Chevy 45, 38
Dodge 36, 36

Fuel Economy Solo, Towing
Ford 17.5, 7.9
Chevy 17.3,8.1
Dodge 15.9,7.5

Transmission Temperature towing level, Uphill
Ford 177, 194
Chevy 179,224
Dodge 256, 285 (does anyone see a potential problem here?)

This is just a bit of the article but you get the point. This is the only
fair comparison I have seen any magazine do on the three trucks. Hopefully
they'll do a Diesel comparison this year.

Nathan Bernard
Union Auto, Inc.
Union, IA 50258
- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Hill
To: Union Auto
Cc: fordtrucks97up ListService.net
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems


>So what kind of mileage should I get with my truck? It is a 97 F250 with
>a 5.4 engine and trailer tow package. I get 13 on the average and 8 while
>towing. Should this be higher?
>
>Bob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:03:01 -0500
From: "Frank Bures"
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:31:52 -0500, Union Auto wrote:

>Quoting from Trailer Life June 1997 issue:
>
> Dodge Ram 1500 5.9L V-8 4x4 with 3.9 gears Club cab 4x4 Auto Vs. Chevy
>K2500 5.7L V-8 4x4 with 3.73 gears Extended cab 4x4 auto Vs. F-250 5.4L V-8
>supercab 4x4 Auto 3.73 gears.

(rest of the article nuked)

Is the article available somewhere on the Net in its entirety?

Thanks


Frank Bures, Dept. of Chemistry, University of Toronto, M5S 3H6
fbures chem.toronto.edu
http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://frank.chem.utoronto.ca/electronics

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:37:42 EDT
From: RAMWORKER
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems

Hello Nathan and List!

In a message dated 4/30/98 10:11:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
unionaut adiis.net writes:

>I've read in the TDR that Ford not Chevy had the Diesel market in the 80's
>then Dodge took it for a couple of years in 1991 and then in 1994 Ford took
>back over and now leads by a wide margin. I assume you are talking about
>light trucks since Dodge doesn't build anything over 1 ton. As for overall
>truck sales (full size) Dodge sold about 300,000 and Ford sold 800,000 last
>year. Chevy and GMC were just behind Ford. So I don't know what you think
>a minority is.

Sorry, I should have made clear that I was talking about the one ton Hot Shot
trucking market.

Could you post some specifications on the F550 towing and GVW ratings? I
think this would make an excellent Hot Shot truck.


>I don't know who had the name first both used
>it in the 50's.

My first knowledge of Pontiac's usage is 1959

>As for price check out a 3/4 ton extended cab Dodge Vs. Ford. A SD has 4
>doors standard and is still less money than a standard 2 door Club Cab, and
>if you go Quad cab it is a crazy price difference. Especially considering
>you are comparing a 98 to a 99. As for technology and features the SD has 4
>wheel disc brakes, a better ride using a simpler suspension, much better
>Gasoline engines, a more sophisticated Diesel.

I haven't checked price difference lately, years ago, Ford's were the highest.
I will be checking soon, sure wish you were my local dealer. It's great to
talk to people who know their product and some of the history.

Dodge will end their club cab production early in 1999 in favor of all Quad
Cabs. Currently,
Dodge gets a $750 premium for the Quad Cab on the 1500 and 2500 series,
strangely, quad is standard on 3500 series.

>Mileage wise, The gasoline Ford's will clobber the Dodge. The Dodge uses an
>old inefficient design, and Ford uses modern OHC engines to increase both
>power and mileage. In Trailer Life the tested the 5.4L Vs 5.9L Vs 5.7L and
>the Dodge had the lowest performance and the worst mileage. The Chevy was
>close to the Ford, though. and in Diesels the 97 Power Stroke and the 12
>valve Cummins got about the same mileage, but now the 99 is getting about 1
>MPG better than the 97 and everyone with an ISB around here is getting about
>2 MPG worse than their 12 valve did (comparing all four in brake in, maybe
>they'll change after 10k miles)

There are a lot of complaints about the ISB mileage being down 10 to 25
percent compared to the old 12 valve engine.

Dodge will have new gas engines soon, in typical modern fashion, they will be
smaller, have more power, and get better mileage than the old engines. Quite
frankly, I'm not convinced by any manufacturer, that the new engines are
better than their old engines

For any Power Stroke owners, there is an excellent diesel list run by Dan
Hepner of Hewlett Packard. It is billed as a Cummins list, but it is for ALL
diesels. Dan does not tolerate flames or incivility. One member's signature
indicates that he has a 400 horsepower Power Stroke, I sure would like to know
how he did that, as the electronic engines are very difficult to tinker with.
If you would like to be on this list, let me know, and I'll send you the
subscription information.

Best Regards,
Robert Stout

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:49:35 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: Ford Technical Service Hotline

1-800-392-FORD is the Customer Service Hotline.

Nathan
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Schapker
To: fordtrucks97up listservice.net
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 11:27 AM
Subject: Ford Technical Service Hotline


> Does anyone know this phone number?
> Thanks, Jeff
>
>
>+-------------- Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer --------------+
>| Send posts to fordtrucks97up listservice.net, |
>| List removal instructions on the website. |
>+----------------- Site: http://www.ford-trucks.com -----------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:51:02 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems

I haven't seen it on the net but you might try Trailer Life's site. I think
its www.trailerlife.com but I am not sure.

Nathan Bernard
Union Auto, Inc.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank Bures
To: fordtrucks97up ListService.net
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems


>On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:31:52 -0500, Union Auto wrote:
>
>>Quoting from Trailer Life June 1997 issue:
>>
>> Dodge Ram 1500 5.9L V-8 4x4 with 3.9 gears Club cab 4x4 Auto Vs. Chevy
>>K2500 5.7L V-8 4x4 with 3.73 gears Extended cab 4x4 auto Vs. F-250 5.4L
V-8
>>supercab 4x4 Auto 3.73 gears.
>
>(rest of the article nuked)
>
>Is the article available somewhere on the Net in its entirety?
>
>Thanks
>
>
>Frank Bures, Dept. of Chemistry, University of Toronto, M5S 3H6
>fbures chem.toronto.edu
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://frank.chem.utoronto.ca/electronics

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:32:48 EDT
From: KWkM3
Subject: Re: Ford F-250 and F-350 Forum SOF Problems

In a message dated 98-04-30 11:23:37 EDT, you write:


a 5.4 engine and trailer tow package. I get 13 on the average and 8 while....


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