From: owner-97up-list-digest ford-trucks.com (97up-list-digest)
To: 97up-list-digest ford-trucks.com
Subject: 97up-list-digest V2 #252
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97up-list-digest Sunday, September 19 1999 Volume 02 : Number 252



=======================================================================
Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer Trucks and Vans
Visit our web site: http://www.ford-trucks.com/
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=======================================================================
In this issue:

Re: FTE 97up - 5 th wheel trailer questions
RE: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
Re: FTE 97up - Crew Cab
FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
FTE 97up - The crack
Re: FTE 97up - Question on Ford Splash Guards (Mud Flaps)
FTE 97up - The Crack - Temp Fix
RE: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
Re: FTE 97up - The crack
Re: FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
Re: FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
Re: FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

=======================================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:01:57 -0400
From: Jean Marc Chartier
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - 5 th wheel trailer questions

TRITON46L aol.com wrote:
>
> i know where it hooks up to. but why is it called a fifth wheel trailer?
> that's what i wanna know
>
> Bill
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

Triton46,

I believe it comes from days of old when trucks had 4
wheels on the ground. The hitch looked like a wheel so it
was called a fifth wheel. Now highway tractors have up to
10 wheels on the ground but the nomenclature had been around
for so long it has stuck.

Regards

JMC
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:46:51 EDT
From: "Christian Bagley"
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

Well, David. I must say that just because you have scratches and dents
bigger than this does not mean that we should not be concerned and demand
Ford fix this. The big difference here is that your scratches and dents
were caused by you or another person, this crack was caused by a defect in
the design of the doors. Some of us like to keep our trucks rust free.


>From: "David Moore"
>Reply-To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
>To:
>CC:
>Subject: RE: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:49:00 -0500
>
>I've got scratches and dints in my 99 F250SD bigger than this - you can't
>even hardly see the crack. As for the replacement doors - my impression is
>that the repair work would be more noticeable than the original crack in
>the
>door.
>
>David
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com
>[mailto:owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of AdamsB asu.edu
>Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 10:03 AM
>To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
>Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
>
>
>Wow that is really bad. Are they all this bad? I would be raising hell.
>If
>someone is willing to use these pictures and make a flyer, I would be
>willing
>to put them on all f150's I see. Just to get the word out.
>
>I am in Mesa, AZ. (borders Phoenix)
>
>Brandon
>
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>
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______________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:49:45 -0700
From: Gene Ball
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

And you are so right!!!!!
Its hard to get a perfect job, from a body shop!
Chances are your doors will be worst than they where before they worked on it!
You guys may be throwing gas on fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ron,Marge,Ted wrote:

> I have the crack in my 98 and I agree that it so small. I never would have
> even noticed it myself if it wasn't brought to my attention on this list. My
> only concern is that it might get bigger with time and start to rust. I am
> going to bring it to my dealer's attention next month when I take it in for
> another problem and see what he says. I am hoping there is a less drastic
> fix for it other than replacing the whole door. I'm afraid they either won't
> get the paint to match or won't do as good a job as factory or else I will
> start having trouble with the way it closes or seals after someone changes
> it. In other words, I don't want to trade a small blemish for a bigger
> quality problem brought on by a bad installation job.
>
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Moore
> To:
> Cc:
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 12:49 PM
> Subject: RE: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
>
> > I've got scratches and dints in my 99 F250SD bigger than this - you can't
> > even hardly see the crack. As for the replacement doors - my impression
> is
> > that the repair work would be more noticeable than the original crack in
> the
> > door.
> >
> > David
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com
> > [mailto:owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of AdamsB asu.edu
> > Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 10:03 AM
> > To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> > Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
> >
> >
> > Wow that is really bad. Are they all this bad? I would be raising hell.
> > If
> > someone is willing to use these pictures and make a flyer, I would be
> > willing
> > to put them on all f150's I see. Just to get the word out.
> >
> > I am in Mesa, AZ. (borders Phoenix)
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> > == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
> >
> > == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
> >
>
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:55:56 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Crew Cab

The F-150 Crew cab will begin production in December, but it will be a 2001
model so it can't be shipped until Jan 2. So you should start seeing them
in mid Jan. We can order them now, but there are no prices available. I'd
expect prices in Mid December.

Nathan Bernard
Union Auto, Inc.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Tom McGuire
To:
Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 3:28 PM
Subject: FTE 97up - Crew Cab


> Is Ford going to make an F150 crew cab soon? I'm looking for a pickup
with
> 4 full doors.
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 09:01:43 EDT
From: BFunk33 aol.com
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

Yes, it's a design problem.
The crack is a stress crack, caused by the metal repeatedly bending back and
forth.
The top of the door is not properly supported, and vibrates as you go down
the road. The front pillar of the door is stronger, and stiffer, and doesn't
bend as much. It's not a case of improper door alignment, as a rule, but a
result of the door's design.
Simply replacing the door will not solve the problem, but will eventually get
you out of the warranty period.
The effect is that the crack will spread to the rear of the door, and that
outer panel will simply break in two.
The cure is a re-design of the door to stiffen it, to decrease the vibration.
Bill

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:


Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

You know, I posted an earlier response to this. There were no replies.
What is the effect of this crack? Yep, it's there. IS IT AN ENGINERING
PROBLEM? There was not a single response.

Well? >>
=====================================================
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 09:46:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: dlsipe webtv.net (Darin Sipe)
Subject: FTE 97up - The crack

I hear many of you asking how big of a deal is this crack. My '97 is
white and as close to showroom condition as I've seen. No scratches and
no dents! The only cosmetic flaw is this crack. (Cosmetic for now,
we'll have to see what it becomes as time goes on.) It it worse on the
driver's side where it is beginning to rust. This rust really makes the
crack stand out on a light colored vehicle. I have waged the war
against rust before. It is always an uphill battle. A battle that we
shouldn't have to deal with due to manufacturer negligence in design on
trucks that are less than 3 years old. I am not crazy about having two
doors that were not painted on the assembly line, either. But which is
the lesser of the two evils?

Keep in mind, also, that those of us who are beyond the 3/36 are Ford's
stepchildren. Any repairs will be at owner expense. As you can tell,
I'm not exactly happy. I will continue to spread the word, and suggest
everyone else do the same.

Darin

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 09:10:27 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Question on Ford Splash Guards (Mud Flaps)

Thats the way the flaps come, but we haven't had any problem with them
braking off in the winter.

Nathan

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Abraham
To:
Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 4:28 PM
Subject: FTE 97up - Question on Ford Splash Guards (Mud Flaps)


> Anyone got two piece Ford splash guards? Not two guards, but each
> guard being made up of two separate pieces: a molded piece and a
> flat sheet attached to the cupped, tire facing side.
>
> I ask this because a D'dge owning friend showed me his mud flaps
> on his truck, which were almost identical to mine except for the logo,
> and one other important difference: the molded part with the logo had
> a flat sheet of plastic attached to it to minimize ice and snow build-up.
>
> In fact he commented that mine would probably not make it through
> this upcoming winter. And when you look at how they're designed, he's
> right. Their going to catch everything the tires throw at them.
>
> So I started thinking maybe mine did come like his, only the dealership's
> "prep boys" forgot to installed them?
>
> Or maybe that's why Ford calls them splash guards? That's all they're
> meant for.
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:24:30 EDT
From: JDavis1277 aol.com
Subject: FTE 97up - The Crack - Temp Fix

Having seen the crack on The Crack Page (here comes the DEA, look out;=))
it's easy to understand how owners are pretty upset.

I'm very hopeful Ford will do the right thing on the issue. Meanwhile, to
encourage them to do the right thing, publicize the problem.

OK, the temporary fix. Because it may be months before Ford takes care of
the problem, it may be a good idea to do something to stop the cracks from
becoming worse. Cracks like the ones in the pictures tend to grow until
something is done to stop them. Generally, the best way to stop the growth
of a fatigue crack is to drill a small hole at the end of the crack. To stop
water from leaking in and doing further damage a little RTV should do the
trick. Wax on the finish may discourage the RTV from sticking, but if the
surface is well cleaned it will stick. If the door is flexing the RTV may
have to be reapplied now and then. I also recommend curtailing off road fun
until a permanent fix is accomplished.

Good luck,

Butch
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 09:39:33 -0500
From: "pennhead"
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

...and isn't it truly sad that so many of us probably feel this way? To
have so little confidence in service departments and/or body shops to repair
something... anything... properly? I tell you, it would be refreshing just
to have something done "satisfactory" for a change. Anything beyond that
would be truly remarkable.

Admittedly, there are many working in this field that still consider
themselves craftsmen. Those that take great pride in their labor, and
believe each repair leaves their shop as a signature of their competence.
You guys are the benchmark by which all others should be judged. It is you
who I will patronize.

...and it is some of you "craftsmen" who indeed work for one of these
unremarkable service departments, and find yourself a victim of disciplinary
action when you give a job the necessary time to do it right, instead of
rushing thru it just to get to another task that will be equally rushed. It
is shameful that quality is often sacrificed in the name of efficiency.
When it's your paycheck, though, what choice do you have? It must be
difficult to find job satisfaction when you know you haven't given a task
the attention it deserves. Keep trying.

Just my $.02 worth.

Regards,
Penn

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com
[mailto:owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of Ron,Marge,Ted
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 1999 12:49 AM
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.


I have the crack in my 98 and I agree that it so small. I never would have
even noticed it myself if it wasn't brought to my attention on this list. My
only concern is that it might get bigger with time and start to rust. I am
going to bring it to my dealer's attention next month when I take it in for
another problem and see what he says. I am hoping there is a less drastic
fix for it other than replacing the whole door. I'm afraid they either won't
get the paint to match or won't do as good a job as factory or else I will
start having trouble with the way it closes or seals after someone changes
it. In other words, I don't want to trade a small blemish for a bigger
quality problem brought on by a bad installation job.

Ron
- ----- Original Message -----
From: David Moore
To:
Cc:
Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.


> I've got scratches and dints in my 99 F250SD bigger than this - you can't
> even hardly see the crack. As for the replacement doors - my impression
is
> that the repair work would be more noticeable than the original crack in
the
> door.
>
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com
> [mailto:owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of AdamsB asu.edu
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 10:03 AM
> To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
> Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
>
>
> Wow that is really bad. Are they all this bad? I would be raising hell.
> If
> someone is willing to use these pictures and make a flyer, I would be
> willing
> to put them on all f150's I see. Just to get the word out.
>
> I am in Mesa, AZ. (borders Phoenix)
>
> Brandon
>
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:27:44 EDT
From: RiTruckGuy aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

David,

The real problem with the crack is it will suck in water, eventually causing
the door to rot prematurely. I haven't got a single ding or dent in my '97,
and intend to keep it that way.

Bill
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:31:09 EDT
From: RiTruckGuy aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The crack

Since I first read about this crack problem, I've looked at over 100 '97 and
'98s.....every single one of them had the problem. My advice is get keep a
really close eye on it, because yours will develop it.....

Bill

"Today after lunch I checked the other two '98's parked in my office
building's parking lot. One of them had the cracks on both doors, the other
only had it on the driver's door. Gee, 75% failure isn't *that* bad. (My
'98 hasn't done it yet, knock on wood.)"

Mike Fairleigh
mikef sky.net
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:37:15 EDT
From: RiTruckGuy aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

"The crack is a stress crack, caused by the metal repeatedly bending back and
forth.
The top of the door is not properly supported, and vibrates as you go down
the road. The front pillar of the door is stronger, and stiffer, and doesn't
bend as much. It's not a case of improper door alignment, as a rule, but a
result of the door's design.
Simply replacing the door will not solve the problem, but will eventually get
you out of the warranty period."
The effect is that the crack will spread to the rear of the door, and that
outer panel will simply break in two.
The cure is a re-design of the door to stiffen it, to decrease the vibration.
Bill


Bill....great assesment of the cause of the problem....the question is do we
have anybody out there with enough engineering background that can determine
if this design flaw is serious enough that if left unrepaired, would
eventually compromise the "safety cage" for the passengers of the
vehicle?.....if that arguement can be made, then this becomes a safety issue,
and Ford should be on the hook for a recall....there may be a ray of hope for
those of us beyond the warranty period....

Bill
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:12:39 -0500
From: tvsjr sprynet.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

Well, the crack is obviously a structural defect. A piece of metal with a
hole in it can't be as strong as the same piece of metal without the hole.
What about a penetrating object? The strength of the metal would be greatly
compromised (such as finding that 2x4 floating around in the road) and it
might penetrate into the cage. Plus, if you rolled it and it slid down that
side, the metal could catch on something and rip the the metal away from
the door beams like a piece of paper. I can't remember the name right now
(brain fart), but there is a federal agency that deals with vehicle safety.
They have engineers that can help you- if you bring a possible defect to
their attention, they have to investigate it. Get a couple of feds to start
calling Ford and Ford might be a little more open about getting it fixed
(before the gov't steps in and makes them).

I haven't seen this defect show up on my Expedition ('97 XLT with 169K
miles), so I hope that the doors are different so I don't have the problem.

Maybe a petition and photos to illustrate this problem across the country
would be a good place to start. Especially people who have fleets of F150s-
they would have PLENTY of evidence for the gov't. If one person or a group
of a few people would collect the photos and a written description for each
truck, you would have conclusive evidence. I don't see how Ford could NOT
fix the trucks.

Terry

At 06:37 PM 09/18/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>"The crack is a stress crack, caused by the metal repeatedly bending back and
>forth.
>The top of the door is not properly supported, and vibrates as you go down
>the road. The front pillar of the door is stronger, and stiffer, and doesn't
>bend as much. It's not a case of improper door alignment, as a rule, but a
>result of the door's design.
>Simply replacing the door will not solve the problem, but will eventually get
>you out of the warranty period."
>The effect is that the crack will spread to the rear of the door, and that
>outer panel will simply break in two.
>The cure is a re-design of the door to stiffen it, to decrease the vibration.
>Bill
>
>
>Bill....great assesment of the cause of the problem....the question is do we
>have anybody out there with enough engineering background that can determine
>if this design flaw is serious enough that if left unrepaired, would
>eventually compromise the "safety cage" for the passengers of the
>vehicle?.....if that arguement can be made, then this becomes a safety issue,
>and Ford should be on the hook for a recall....there may be a ray of hope for
>those of us beyond the warranty period....
>
>Bill
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:04:21 -0700
From: "Brandon Adams"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

I have mentioned several times that if someone was to write up a one page
flyer briefly descibing the situation I would help distribute them to all
F150's i see. Since I do not own one, I don't feel I should have to come up
with the document. Spreading the news is the best start to attacking the
problem. With more people knowing of the problem, there has to be at least
one that will take at least one of your guys' threats into action. Somebody
has to or it will not get taken care of.

Sorry if I seem upset. But I am tired of hearing what should be done and who
should be contacted.

Let the flames begin :)
Brandon

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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:37:22 -0700
From: "Steve J. Hodson"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

If it turns into a rust spot it's a problem because we pay an awful lot of
money for this sheet metal.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Logerman aol.com
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Friday, September 17, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.


>You know, I posted an earlier response to this. There were no replies.
>What is the effect of this crack? Yep, it's there. IS IT AN ENGINERING
>PROBLEM? There was not a single response.
>
>Well?
>
>Eric
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:32:36 -0500
From: "Randy Collins"
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

Ya know, it's sad when you are willing to live with an obvious
defect/problem on a $20K + vehicle rather than have a dealer service
department fix it! Everytime I have had a vehicle at the dealership it comes
back to me with more problems than it went in with. In fact, my 96 Probe was
repeatedly messed up by the dealership, they gave me what i paid for it on a
trade.

ran

> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 01:49:03 -0400
> From: "Ron,Marge,Ted"
> Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
>
> I have the crack in my 98 and I agree that it so small. I never would have
> even noticed it myself if it wasn't brought to my attention on this list.
My
> only concern is that it might get bigger with time and start to rust. I am
> going to bring it to my dealer's attention next month when I take it in
for
> another problem and see what he says. I am hoping there is a less drastic
> fix for it other than replacing the whole door. I'm afraid they either
won't
> get the paint to match or won't do as good a job as factory or else I will
> start having trouble with the way it closes or seals after someone changes
> it. In other words, I don't want to trade a small blemish for a bigger
> quality problem brought on by a bad installation job.
>
> Ron



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Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:01:20 -0700
From: "Jose Pomposo Jr."
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.

I went to check out where my selling dealership has their body work done.
It is done at a very state of the art body shop in Los Angeles. Their
prices are very high but their quality is probably better than factory!
They also do body work for Santa Monica BMW and W.I. Simonson Mercedes-Benz,
as well as Airport Marina Ford and A-M Honda and Toyota. Needless to say I
am not worried about handing over my truck to them for the door replacement.
They even gave me a tour of their facility and completed work, complete with
before pictures, and assured me that they would include the stone protector
tape at the bottom of the door and new side moldings and door seals before I
even told them about those items!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ron,Marge,Ted
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Friday, September 17, 1999 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.


>I have the crack in my 98 and I agree that it so small. I never would have
>even noticed it myself if it wasn't brought to my attention on this list.
My
>only concern is that it might get bigger with time and start to rust. I am
>going to bring it to my dealer's attention next month when I take it in for
>another problem and see what he says. I am hoping there is a less drastic
>fix for it other than replacing the whole door. I'm afraid they either
won't
>get the paint to match or won't do as good a job as factory or else I will
>start having trouble with the way it closes or seals after someone changes
>it. In other words, I don't want to trade a small blemish for a bigger
>quality problem brought on by a bad installation job.
>
>Ron
>----- Original Message -----
>From: David Moore
>To:
>Cc:
>Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 12:49 PM
>Subject: RE: FTE 97up - The Ford F-150 Crack Page.
>
>
>> I've got scratches and dints in my 99 F250SD bigger than this - you can't
>> even hardly see the crack. As for the replacement doors - my impression
>is
>> that the repair work would be more noticeable than the original crack in
>the
>> door.
>>
>> David
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com
>> [mailto:owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com]On Behalf Of AdamsB ....

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