97up-list-digest Monday, April 12 1999 Volume 02 : Number 092



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Subject: Re: FTE 97up - door gaskets
FTE 97up - Oil Change
FTE 97up - Oil Cooling Manual
FTE 97up - Non-Automatic Transmission Oil Coolers
Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change
FTE 97up - Oil Change (Dealer Screw Ups)
Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change (Dealer Screw Ups)
FTE 97up - Re: V8 vs V10 mileage
Re: FTE 97up - Re: V8 vs V10 mileage
Re: FTE 97up - Fan clutch follies Part II
Re: FTE 97up - Cab noise 1999 F-250 SD, SC, (V-10) -Reply
FTE 97up - Red Line Gear Oil Any Good??????
Re: FTE 97up - Red Line Gear Oil Any Good??????
Re: FTE 97up - Red Line Gear Oil Any Good??????
Re: FTE 97up - electric fan (was Fan clutch follies Part II)
Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change
Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change II
Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change II
FTE 97up - ADMIN: Web site updates
Re: FTE 97up - electric fan (was Fan clutch follies Part II)
Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change II

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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:02:09 -0400
From: RAY WRIGHT
Subject: Subject: Re: FTE 97up - door gaskets

My brother in law did'nt get the door gaskets on his new crew
cab,he also has factory steps,went to dealer and they ordered
them for him,at no charge.
Ray Wright
tworites home.com
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:08:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adry Gimenez
Subject: FTE 97up - Oil Change

Hey,

I think we should get ahold of these stories and make a book out of it.("The Book Of Dealer Screw-ups"). This way we may get something out of all of this.
I wonder if we were to call Ford and report all of this what may happen to the dealers reputaion.
And by the way, when the "so-called" mechanic fell, he did`nt scratch the paint he scratched the plastic grill and the Ford Oval witch are very easly scratchable.


Becks2

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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:21:57 -0600
From: "Matus, Scott A"
Subject: FTE 97up - Oil Cooling Manual

I'm sorry about the confusion on this issue. There were 3 items in question
about this post.

1)This is the first time I had a vehicle with Trans cooler lines on a
Manual Trans, I was surprised.
2)The guy asked about installing a Trans filter, I did that and
offered my procedures. I did not say anything about his being an Automatic,
for it should install on either Trans.
3) The reference to my old '69 Pontiac was an Automatic Trans.

Your not that young to have missed that one.

Scott.


.
for that model or if someone had a brilliant idea back then, or perhaps I am
truly in the dark on this. I'm trying to remember back to all the standard
transmission vehicles we worked on and I can't honestly say one way or the
other
back..lol>.

C.K.
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:33:18 -0600
From: "Matus, Scott A"
Subject: FTE 97up - Non-Automatic Transmission Oil Coolers

AMEN, brother. And I'm also installing a Trans Temp Gauge to monitor the
cooling process.
The time has come to look at the Manual Trans in the same light as people do
Automatics.

Scott.
- ------ Original Post --------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 02:51:39 EDT
From: SchmidP aol.com
Subject: FTE 97up - Non-Automatic Transmission Oil Coolers

(First Post on this list.)
I have not seen an answer to the question:
"Why would a manual shift transmission have an Oil Cooler".
included>>

Having some experience with Transmission Overheating on manual shift units
I=20
will try to explain why Oil Coolers are used.

When the Transmission is in direct drive (1: to 1: ratio) the heat
buildup=20
within the transmission is minimal, however when in overdrive OR in a
reduce=
d=20
gear, power going through the cluster gear in the transmission generates
a=20
great deal of internal heat.

Now, if we add a PSD in front of and a load (trailer or what ever) behind=20
this unit and pull a long Grade, we may just have the brute torque to
pull=20
this rig west across Kansas, through to Denver in Overdrive.
This may not seem like a hill but it's up all the way.
Now, we are starting up the hill to the Eisenhower Pass, my guess is that=20
direct gear won=92t pull it thus we wiggle the stick a little and end up in
=
a=20
reduced gear, again generating heat. =20

In the winter this may be no big deal, but a lot of people travel in the=20
summer when the temp. is higher under the truck. Lets take an 80 degree=20
ambient temperature, reflect the Sun off the black top road surface, air=20
going through the Air Conditioner Condenser, Engine Radiator, Turbo Inner=20
Cooler, and put an exhaust system in front of, and beside the transmission.
=20
Need I say more?

As for me, when I get my PSD, give me a BIG Transmission Cooler.

Regards,
Paul S.
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:39:38 EDT
From: CERESJohnG aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change

The book is a great idea, call it 50 buck an hour screwups.

By the way, it isn't limited to Ford dealers. I've had it at Ford, Chevy,
Cadillac/GMC, all of the above.
Half of it is the guys are at least partly on peice part work so they just
don't want to take the time to do something"non productive" like getting a
work stand. Some I agree don't know better.

I have had transmissions opened up and only half the bolts on the pan
tightened, Vehicles spark knocking like crazy, Dealer can't find a problem
for $150, next day small independant finds the mechanical advance on the
distributer frozen solid.

Major clunk in front end when you change direction( forward reverse), dealer
can find no cause other than maybe the ball joints. Independant front end guy
spend 10 minutes and finds that the four bolts (big ones) holding the entire
front assy in place were loose. Reason? Dealer had a frame lift, so the
front end was hanging and seemed tight. This guy had some raised ramps so he
could lay under it and look while his wife drove the car back and forth over
his head. Guess where I get all my front end work done now.

love to hear some stories from Nathan on this subect. I'll bet he has a few
and some he'd rather forget.

John G


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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:22:51 -0700
From: JJ Thomas
Subject: FTE 97up - Oil Change (Dealer Screw Ups)

Back when I had a 89(?) GMC, I took it in for a L-O-F do be done while I
waited. The service manager comes to get me and says, No, don't get mad,
Mr. Thomas." He escorted me to the service bay where my door had been
reduced to bed height. The mechanic had raised the truck with the door
open and the door was crushed by the roof support beam. The door
replacement was easy. The truck had some custom striping on it. They got
the door fixed but were still looking for the replacement striping when
they told me I could pick up the truck.

I told them, "No." The truck is not repaired, the stripping needs to be
replaced. It took them about a month to realized they were going to have
to re-stripe the truck. Which they finally did. In the interim, I had the
use of a loaner.

And it gets better... I am sitting in the regional office with the GMC
Zone Manager who is on the phone with the dealers service manager. The
words I hear are, "What do mean you did not replace any parts!!! I paid
for an invoice that showed you replace all these parts!!!" He looked at me
and I am all but grinning ear to ear. When all was said and done, GMC
settle with me out of court under lemon law, title fraud, repair fraud and
odometer tampering. I got about $17K for a $10,000 truck. And I would
have settle out of court if they simply paid off my $8,000 loan.

I still need to send that special hallmark card to GMC...

At least Ford is willing to work it out with me for my Ranger...

- -Julian


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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:59:55 EDT
From: CERESJohnG aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change (Dealer Screw Ups)

Oh boy, this thread has great potential for developing into something
veryinteresting

John G
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:32:10 -0700
From: "Harald Stenger"
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: V8 vs V10 mileage

It's been my experience that wide tires are horrible in wet weather - no
traction. I live in Seattle where it rains often, so wet traction is
important to me. The wider tires are great for mud or deep snow where
"floating" is important. I'm sticking with the stock 265/75-16 Firestones
on my 99 F350 SC,V10,4x4,auto,SRW, 4.30LS for the slightly better gas
mileage and most importantly, these tires have the highest weight carrying
capacity of any tires I've seen. This is important when carrying my 11 foot
Alpenlite camper. BTW, my in town mileage is running just under 9mpg with
lots of stop and go while going up and down hills with my lead foot. That's
only 1 mpg less than I was getting with my 90 F150 with 5.0 liter V8 and I
can sure haul much more in the SD.

Something else to consider in the V8 vs V10 mileage equation is that the V8
will be working harder when towing so it's mileage probably won't be any
better.


Harald Stenger


"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin

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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:29:38 EDT
From: CERESJohnG aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: V8 vs V10 mileage

Harald is pretty much on the mark. Wider tires will have a tendancy to
hydroplane in wet, everything else being the same. Some of that can be
eliminated with tread design, allowing the water to migrate out from under
the tread area.

There was a lot of hoopla a few years back with the Goodyear Aquatread.
Basically, it did work pretty well. Goodyear did actually do better that just
an ad campaign. It was a good wet weather tire although they also apparantly
had a fairly sticky tread compound as well..

Wider tires will generaly have more sidewall flex, and a lit more tread
squirm at the contact patch. That is power lost to friction and will
negatively effect mileage.

Tire usage and design is one big balancing act for the buyer as well as the
vehicle and tire manufacturer. Generally the manufacturer goes for
performance (load capacity and reasonable traction vs mileage) assuming
normal driving. They (and we as owners) start to move away from that when
the normal criteria change. That can go from being a mudder, to just
looking good. Most of those changes willl extract a cost in mileage.

John G
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:52:01 -0400
From: Jean Marc Chartier
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Fan clutch follies Part II

Danny Gaudenti wrote:
>
> Quick update: I got the old fan off last night. It wasn't hard after I
> bought the tool. The shop manual (and others) have said it has left-hand
> threads. Mine has right-hand threads, which makes sense if you look at the
> direction the fan spins. Right-hand threads would tend to tighten the fan.
>
> Quick comment: More power is one reason I'm doing this, but the engine
> should be more efficient overall. No need to be spinning a big heavy fan
> while cruising on the freeway with a 65 MPH wind blowing into the radiator.
> I don't think I'll notice an increase in MPG, but many little things can
> add up. Also, I'm hoping that removing that heavy fan from the water pump
> shaft will help the life of its bearings. Oops, that wasn't very quick...
>
> Oh, you also asked at about cost. If you mean dollar cost: the fan was
> $89, the temperature control (to the turn the fan on/off) was $20, switch,
> relay and LED for dash control was $13 and then another few dollars for
> wire, fuse, etc.
>
> Danny
>

Danny,

I would strongly suggest that you put warning labels all
over the Fan Shroud advising mechanics or anybody for that
matter that the fan could come on at any moment.
I would also suggest you wire it to a circuit that is hot
in RUN only. This will prevent the fan from running with
the engine off.
I would lastly suggest that you check with someone in the
know to find out at what temperature your fan should turn on
and off at. If it turns on too low you might not get up to
proper operating temp, too high and you could boil over. If
it turns off tool low it could run all the time reducing fan
motor life, too high and you could cook your engine if you
turn it off too hot.

Regards

Jean Marc Chartier
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:01:44 -0400
From: Jean Marc Chartier
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Cab noise 1999 F-250 SD, SC, (V-10) -Reply

GEORGE CROLL wrote:
>
> Hi JJ
>
> Simple engineering sense says the following. If the V-10 has 2 more cylinders than the V-8 and is identical in every
> other way (A pretty good assumption for these motors) At the same RPM, compression and air to fuel ratio ( again a
> pretty good assumption when highway driving with the same gears at the same speed) the v-10 will pump 20% more
> air through the engine and use about 20% more gas. For the super duty this means about 12 mpg highway for the
> v-10 and 15 mpg for the v-8. The 12 mpg number comes from my own V-10 with 3.73 and auto and is reinforced by
> other reports I have heard here and elsewhere. The V-8 number is close to what I have heard in a few posts. In
> city driving the V-10 drops to 10 mpg the V-8 to probably 12.5 mpg. I also think it is worth repeating from another
> post that in terms of cost upgrading to the V-10 is your best performance bargain by far. Especially when compared
> to attempting to increase the V-8 HP (and torque) to V-10 levels without losing all of the mileage benefits it offers. My
> best guess is that a V-8 hopped up to 275 HP and 410 ft/lbs wouldn't get 12 mpg highway. You might consider a
> better option to buy the V-10 and do mods to increase its mileage. (tonneau cover, electric fan, undersize pulleys,
> free flow exhaust, K&N filter, slightly bigger, and still narrow, tires) and have the best of both worlds. BTW this
> should not jeopardize the engine warranty.
>
> You know its funny how easy it is to construct an argument to support a decision I made just because I WANTED a
> V-10. Take it for what its worth, a V-10 owner saying its the way to go.
>
> Late
>
>
> George Croll
> EPA-OAR-ARD
> (202)564-0162
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George,

You have made some good points. There is no substitute for
cubic inches. Imagine the increase in power if you added
all those goodies to the V10. As far as MPG are concerned,
try the V8 vs V10 in a strong head wind. The SDs are big
heavy trucks and you need torque to move them.

Regards

Jean Marc Chartier
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:00:51 -0600
From: JJ/Rae
Subject: FTE 97up - Red Line Gear Oil Any Good??????

Anybody have any experience using Red Line Shock Proof gear oil or MTL??? I am thinking about putting ShokProof LightWeight (75W140 ) gear oil in both the 10.25 Ford Sterling with Detroit Locker and the Dana 50 in our 97 F250 Power Stroke Diesel. Plus I was thinking about trying their MTL in both the 5spd and transfer case. The truck does see quite a bit of back country travel and rugged 4x4 trails along
with freeway travel.

JJ
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:25:25 EDT
From: RSnovi aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Red Line Gear Oil Any Good??????

In a message dated 99-04-11 18:06:16 EDT, you write:


its great stuff, i use have used most all their products, keep in mind there
are different weights. lighweight and heavy, ask them what they recommend.
They can answer any of your questions.

oh yea and the transfer case takes ATF.

www.redlineoil.com
800-624-7958

Ross Smith
9sec93cobra
99 F250SD PSD/SC/4x4


Date:99-04-11 18:06:16 EDT
From:ramprat cheyenneweb.com (JJ/Rae)
Sender:owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com
Reply-to:97up-list ford-trucks.com
To:OffroadExchange onelist.com

Anybody have any experience using Red Line Shock Proof gear oil or MTL??? I
am thinking about putting ShokProof LightWeight (75W140 ) gear oil in both
the 10.25 Ford Sterling with Detroit Locker and the Dana 50 in our 97 F250
Power Stroke Diesel. Plus I was thinking about trying their MTL in both the
5spd and transfer case. The truck does see quite a bit of back country travel
and rugged 4x4 trails along
with freeway travel.

JJ
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:55:40 -0700
From: Danny Gaudenti
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Red Line Gear Oil Any Good??????

>Anybody have any experience using Red Line Shock Proof gear oil or MTL???
I am thinking about putting ShokProof LightWeight (75W140 ) gear oil in
both the 10.25 Ford Sterling with Detroit Locker and the Dana 50 in our 97
F250 Power Stroke Diesel. Plus I was thinking about trying their MTL in
both the 5spd and transfer case. The truck does see quite a bit of back
country travel and rugged 4x4 trails along
>with freeway travel.
>
>JJ

Red Line is supposed to be one of the best oils, it's just so expensive.
I'm using MTL right now. It made a big difference in ease of shifting and,
being synthetic, it should lubricate and protect better. It took thousands
of miles for it to take effect, but I had read about that so it wasn't a
surprise. I guess it has to squeeze all the old oil out of the syncros?
I'm going to switch to their gear oil for the rear-end this spring/summer.

Danny
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:49:06 -0700
From: Danny Gaudenti
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - electric fan (was Fan clutch follies Part II)

>I would strongly suggest that you put warning labels all
>over the Fan Shroud advising mechanics or anybody for that
>matter that the fan could come on at any moment.

Good idea, I've seen them on cars with stock electric fans. I rarely let
anybody but me touch my vehicles, but it could keep blood off my engine and
radiator. :)

>I would also suggest you wire it to a circuit that is hot
>in RUN only. This will prevent the fan from running with
>the engine off.

Yep, I've heard cars in parking lots with the fan running and the engine
off. Seems like a waste and a good way to drain the battery.

>I would lastly suggest that you check with someone in the
>know to find out at what temperature your fan should turn on
>and off at. If it turns on too low you might not get up to
>proper operating temp, too high and you could boil over. If
>it turns off tool low it could run all the time reducing fan
>motor life, too high and you could cook your engine if you
>turn it off too hot.
>
>Regards
>
>Jean Marc Chartier

I was going to let the engine idle until I see the temp just start to rise
above normal. (I've been watching the temp gauge for the last few weeks so
I know where it sits when the engine is warmed up.) Then I'll lower the
temp control just enough to start the fan. I've got a three-position
switch on the dash so I can manually control the fan if I need to. I'll be
keeping a close watch on the temp gauge for the next few days (and through
summer, if it ever gets here) to make sure all is well.

Thanks for the suggestions,

Danny

Oh, I forgot to mention that I *did* finish the install today (enough to
drive the truck). The start-up fan roar is, of course, gone. Now I can
hear my Flowmaster muffler in the morning instead of the fan. You never
notice how loud something is until it's gone.
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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:33:48 -0700
From: "mlester"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change

I just had my 3000 mile done and the total cost was $52.88 as follows
Filter Asy. $13.00
14 quarts oil - $23.10
Recycling charge $0.98
Labor - $13.00
Sales Tax $2.80

This was all done at a Ford Dealer that I have used for a long time on my
other vehicles.

Strange there should be such a difference.

Martial


- -----Original Message-----
From: Adry Gimenez
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 12:46 PM
Subject: FTE 97up - Oil Change


>
>Hey.
>
>I got a 99 F-350,Crew-Cab,Dully,Deisel and
>The other day I went to get my truck its first Diesel Oil Change. Because
it was the first time I went to the dealer thinking it would be done right.
Anyway, it cost me $112 just for the oil, filters, and and labor. Anybody
think thats a ripoff....I do. And to top it off, the mechanic that did it
steped on the tow hook to get on top and slipped. He fell and "almost"
cracked his head open. He broke his legg and got blood over the truck. He
also scratched it on the way down. He blames it on me because he says if I
would`nt have put "armorall" on it he would not have fallen. Thats what I
get for trying to make my truck look good.
>
>
>
>Becks2
>
>__
>http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.go.com
>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Get your Free GO Network Email address at http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://mail.go.com
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>

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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:11:34 -0500
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change II

Actually I'd rather sell a "A, X, or Z" plan vehicle than a regular one.
The price is a set price (I just wish I could buy them that cheap) and as a
dealer I make a good profit that is usually much better than what I make on
a normal sale.

Nathan Bernard
Union Auto, Inc.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Adry Gimenez
To:
Sent: Friday, April 09, 1999 6:18 PM
Subject: FTE 97up - Oil Change II


> All dealers care about is money,It took me 10 months to get this truck
just because the dealer was pushing my due date back because I was able to
get "A" Plan on it, Do you think that 20% off invoice is a reason to get
pushed back for full paying cutomers? If only we could buy directly from
the manufacture alot of these problems might go away.
>
>
> Thanks for the reply`s on the first mail!!!
>
>
> BECKS2
>


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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:03:56 -0500
From: "C. K. Hartline"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change II

Ok Nathan,
What are the 'plan' vehicles? Obviously cheaper than invoice, but based
on what? I'd be interested in hearing what this is. Also to everyone on
the list, could we occasionally write out our acronyms? Like what is a TSB?
Some of us are not as 'knowledgeable as others...just every now and then
remember to put the actual terms in parenthesis for those of us still
uninformed...

Thanks,
C.K.

Oh and by the way, where are you located? Perhaps I should consider buying
my new truck from you...since you seem to be a cut above most Dealers I've
seen.

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:13:30 -0400
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 97up - ADMIN: Web site updates

The following updates have been made to the web site:

Pictorial additions:
1956 F100, 1958 F100, 1984 E150

Links:

"The Ranger Station" added.
"Fords of the Fifties" added.

Tech Articles:
"How to convert an oil bath filter to paper element"

Having problems with the flatbed scanner so it will be about
a week before I can post photo submissions. As usual, we
stay about 1 week behind in pictorial submissions.

Ken Payne
Ford Truck Enthusiasts



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:41:51 -0400
From: Jean Marc Chartier
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - electric fan (was Fan clutch follies Part II)

Danny Gaudenti wrote:
>
> > I would strongly suggest that you put warning labels all
> >over the Fan Shroud advising mechanics or anybody for that
> >matter that the fan could come on at any moment.
>
> Good idea, I've seen them on cars with stock electric fans. I rarely let
> anybody but me touch my vehicles, but it could keep blood off my engine and
> radiator. :)
>
> > I would also suggest you wire it to a circuit that is hot
> >in RUN only. This will prevent the fan from running with
> >the engine off.
>
> Yep, I've heard cars in parking lots with the fan running and the engine
> off. Seems like a waste and a good way to drain the battery.
>
> > I would lastly suggest that you check with someone in the
> >know to find out at what temperature your fan should turn on
> >and off at. If it turns on too low you might not get up to
> >proper operating temp, too high and you could boil over. If
> >it turns off tool low it could run all the time reducing fan
> >motor life, too high and you could cook your engine if you
> >turn it off too hot.
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >Jean Marc Chartier
>
> I was going to let the engine idle until I see the temp just start to rise
> above normal. (I've been watching the temp gauge for the last few weeks so
> I know where it sits when the engine is warmed up.) Then I'll lower the
> temp control just enough to start the fan. I've got a three-position
> switch on the dash so I can manually control the fan if I need to. I'll be
> keeping a close watch on the temp gauge for the next few days (and through
> summer, if it ever gets here) to make sure all is well.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions,
>
> Danny
>
> Oh, I forgot to mention that I *did* finish the install today (enough to
> drive the truck). The start-up fan roar is, of course, gone. Now I can
> hear my Flowmaster muffler in the morning instead of the fan. You never
> notice how loud something is until it's gone.
> == FTE: Uns*bscribe and posting info http://www.ford-trucks.com/faq.html

Danny,

Keep me posted on how it turns out. (You can be the test
mule) ;-) I might do the same thing to my F-150.

Regards

Jean Marc Chartier
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:06:41 EDT
From: RSnovi aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Oil Change II

In a message dated 99-04-11 23:02:15 EDT, you write:


TSB is Technical Service Bulletin ! how nice something that actually stands
for something.

RS

Date:99-04-11 23:02:15 EDT
From:cakid stlmo.com (C. K. Hartline)
Sender:owner-97up-list ....

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