97up-list-digest Sunday, February 21 1999 Volume 02 : Number 048



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

Re: FTE 97up - Re: Ford Locator
Re: FTE 97up - Re: F-150 Fog light wiring
Re: FTE 97up - Dealer Allocation - Top Secret?
FTE 97up - Re: Dealer Stock Orders
Re: FTE 97up - Dealer Allocation - Top Secret?
FTE 97up - allotment for 99psd
FTE 97up - 1999 F-250 SD Questions door seals
FTE 97up - Limited Slip Differential being repaired under warrantee -Reply
Re: FTE 97up - Dealer Allocation - Top Secret? -Reply -Reply
FTE 97up - Fwd: Ford Truck Enthusiasts post -Reply
FTE 97up - allotment for 99psd -Reply
FTE 97up - Re: Ranger vs F150 vs SD 4x4
FTE 97up - ADMIN: Archives are now searchable
Re: FTE 97up - Re: Ranger vs F150 vs SD 4x4
FTE 97up - Shift points change after alarm install

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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:08:07 -0600
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: Ford Locator

The dealers have control over what they get, but each region has its own
commodities. For us (Kansas City region) all I stock (in Super Duty line)
are 4x4's. If I need a 2wd I order or locate it. For the Southern area's
the majority of the sales are 4x2's so thats what their allocated. When the
first batch of orders are scheduled for the week it probably uses up all
their 4x4's so they can either take a 4x2 or loose the allocation. We had a
problem with this when the Super Duty was first coming out.

Nathan Bernard
Union Auto, Inc.

- -----Original Message-----
From: CERESJohnG aol.com
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: Ford Locator


>You guys have to remember that the floor plan chews on these dealers a lot.
>Some are a lot more sensitive to it than others. A dealer who has good
luck
>rolling his stock over may be willing to special order. Then there are the
>ones who know better what you should have than you do. i.e.. "Who
convinced
>you that you need that?". I ran into that when I was looking for a Taurus
>wagon with the 24 valve engine in reasonable trim with a selection of three
or
>four colors. No Ford dealers would order it, why do you want that engine?
No
>one stocks it because of the cost, can't order it, yada ta yada ta .
Biggest
>Mercury dealer in the area tried to get me into a Minivan. "After all, no
one
>drives station wagons anymore." Finally found a Mercury dealer that
ordered a
>Sable for me, or found one, I never knew or cared which. A little plusher
>than I had been looking for, but form, fit and function is exactly what I
>wanted and I couldn't be happier.
>
>By the way, try and buy a 4x4 truck in the Houston area. The dealers will
>admit that if they get one on the lot it lasts on average 2 days. But, they
>claim that the factory won't ship them to them. for inventory. "Not a 4x4
>area "is the argument.
>
>Perhaps Nathan might have some insight on that. I always thought the
dealers
>had control over what they put out on the lot.
>
>John G


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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:14:30 -0600
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: F-150 Fog light wiring

You'll probably need the 4x4 bumper as well, Their different. I've noticed
the switches pull out also, but I don't know if their functional.


Nathan

- -----Original Message-----
From: psjlelliott juno.com
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 7:11 PM
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: F-150 Fog light wiring


>Nathan,
>
>It's 2 wd. Figured I'd need the lights, brackets, etc. New valance
>would be needed for a slick look, vs. bolting the things directly onto
>the bumper. Really wondered if the current factory light switch could be
>used rather than an aftermarket or replacement switch? The current
>switch pulls out like it would if the lights were there. It's cold
>outside, so I haven't crawled under the dash to check it out.
>
>-Pete
>


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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:28:54 -0600
From: "Union Auto"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Dealer Allocation - Top Secret?

You could ask to see some DORA's of other customers orders. They'd have the
date that the order was placed and The dealer should be able to look up on
their computer the date that the truck should be arriving. Dealers
seriously are selling for $2000 over invoice? This sounds crazy on an
outright deal.

Nathan Bernard

- -----Original Message-----
From: Charles Abraham
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 9:22 AM
Subject: FTE 97up - Dealer Allocation - Top Secret?


>When shopping around for a new Super Duty, how does one know
>the dealership's current "allocation"? This past weekend I stopped or
>called several dealerships and all claimed a greater allocation of Super
>Duty's than the other dealership.
>
>Can you take their word on this? Before placing an order can a customer
>ask to see some proof to backup their bagging? I mean say if you can get
>the same deal over invoice, $2000 off the lot or $200 ordered, from several
>dealers. If I choose to order, the deciding factor would have to be the
dealer's
>
>allocation - how soon will it be built.
>
>Charles.
>
>


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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:52:47 -0500
From: Gary & Nancy Brinck
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: Dealer Stock Orders

> By the way, try and buy a 4x4 truck in the Houston area. The dealers will
> admit that if they get one on the lot it lasts on average 2 days. But, they
> claim that the factory won't ship them to them. for inventory. "Not a 4x4
> area "is the argument.
>
> Perhaps Nathan might have some insight on that. I always thought the dealers
> had control over what they put out on the lot.

There is a lot of this going on in the background, especially on high
demand vehicles. Its the way the auto manufacturers try to get get
vehicles to the markets that need them. Notice I said "markets", not
individuals. Some vehicles will not be available for dealer inventory
orders because there is a large customer order backlog. 4X4's might be
shifted to snowy climates during the winter, on the grounds that they are
needed there at that time, not 3 months later. Here in Florida, the
allocation thing loosens up a lot at Christmas time because the northern
markets go soft while at the same time Florida gets an influx of buyers (a
lot of snowbirds buy cars here). Vehicles that were all but impossible to
get in October are magically available in 6-8 weeks if you order in
December or early January.

- --
Gary Brinck...
in Florida's Ocala National Forest
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:34:37 EST
From: CERESJohnG aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Dealer Allocation - Top Secret?

Nathan;
Thanks for the insight on what different regions allocate to dealers for
inventory. I had wondered why Tulsa, OK had plenty of 4x4's and Houston had
few or none yet the primary supply source for both areas was probably KC.

Here in the East Coast/Midatlantic I don't believe I have ever seen a Super
Duty on a lot and very few if any on the road that I can recall.

2k over invoice? I can believe it. All it takes is SD sitting on the lot and
some guy who want's a truck walks in, sees it and goes into testosterone
overload. Reason goes out the window and the sales person is grinning.

I have a friend whose son had a Chevy K1500 less than a year old. No problems
with it. Got convinced by his buddies that you had to have a 3/4 ton 4x4 to
have a "real truck" He didn't need it, just wanted a "real 4x4". No amount of
reasoning by his father and I could convince him that this was not a bright
move. The light I think started to dawn when he saw his old truck leave the
dealers lot with new temporary plates while he was still signing the paperwork
on his new 3/4 ton Ford. The salesman had a buyer on call for his old truck.

In this area we have Dodge dealers who routinely add $750 to $800 "Market
adjustment" to full size trucks and expect to get it.

John G
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:50:56 -0500
From: Claude King
Subject: FTE 97up - allotment for 99psd

Heres the way mine went, ordered 12/16/98 on hold because cold weather
package delete so removed it
12/21/98 unscheduled clean until 2/5/99 the compatiability problem with
idle control switched from 961 to 96p
2/12/99 back to unscheduled clean, dealer then called and said they had a
allotment of 7 trucks and had enough on the lot and only three special
orders so my got scheduled, 2/19/99 serialized and waiting for build and
delivery date. So it looks like it is a combination of dealer choice and
factory back log, glad I waited on ordering, the air cleaner problems,
ESOF, torque converters, shift flair, brake line, new injectors and pump,
different programs for diesel brain, would have drove me nuts, especially
with my dealer as the service dept sucks! Order a lot of stuff different
than the lot models, PTO, skid plates, CC, demin interior, carpet delete,
manual 4X4, hitch, pwr seats, srw etc. Going shopping now for best
financing, would like to hear about best deals people have gotten on
interest or leases.

//ck

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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:58:50 -0900
From: Perry Klein
Subject: FTE 97up - 1999 F-250 SD Questions door seals

>Anyone know part number for the seal? Mine didn't have them.

I have a Super cab and can't remember which was the long and which was short.
The total was $34.31.
F81Z*2520758*AA cost $14.56 and F81Z*28253A24*AA cost $19.08.
I'm assuming the cheaper of the two is the short one.

Hope that helps

pk


>
>Anyone know part number for the seal? Mine didn't have them.
>
>>
>>For those of you that were interested in the rubber seal that snaps
>into
>>the base of the door. I purchased mine since the truck didn't come
>with
>>them. Installation was a snap, took 2 minutes tops. They aren't the
>end
>>all best seal but it has made a difference in the amount of crap that
>>builds up right below the final door seal. Having it both ways I would
>>recommend them.
>>

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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:27:43 -0500
From: GEORGE CROLL
Subject: FTE 97up - Limited Slip Differential being repaired under warrantee -Reply

Stephen

There are several types of differentials designed to reduce traction loss at one wheel. the "normal" stock limited slip
works with a clutch pack. Think of it this way. When one wheel starts to slip the differential has plates which are
forced together jsut like a clutch and the differential transfers power to the stationary tire. Sounds like in your case
the "clutches" are too far apart and arent making contact. The dealer is probably putting a shim in to bring the clutch
plates together. This design is chosen for most factory applications because it is very forgiving when driving
normally. Basically it shouldnt lock up around corners because the pressure applied to the clutches is proportional to
the differential in wheel speed. The disadvantage to these units is they wear out like any clutch and they don't
provide positive traction when the wheels are moving slowly. Basically you have to give too much power to get it to
lock up. Hard core four wheelers dont like this when rock crawling because it leads to to major problems when you
need traction on an off camber slope and you dont wnt to jerk the truck which might cause a roll over.

Another design is the "gleason torsion" type differential which is still made by some manufacturers. This was a
great design which applies more power to the tire with less traction using a unique gearing arrangment. These units
got a bad rep because they had a lot of failures in applications with tires larger than 33 inches. They have excellent
street manners and are a great front differential unit if you have smaller tires.

The last basic catagory of differentials is the "locking" type. The detroit locker is the industry standard and is by far
the most reliable poositive traction device available in my opinion. New cheaper "locking" differentials such as the
lock rite work extremly well but are not as strong as a detroit unit. All of these units have a mechanism which "locks"
the differential together whenever the tires are moving at a different speed. The great advantage of these units is
they work great at slow speeds and they never break or wear out. The big disadvantage is that they lock up
whenever you go around a corner which makes the vehicle hard to steer and they make a lot of strange noises even
when driving in a normal manner. they can also be a killer on ice because they promote loss of traction in this
situation.

I've had all three types and I am planning on putting a detroit locker in the rear of my 99 SD and a lock rite in the fromt.
My 66 jeep had a detroit out back and a lock rite out front. This combination kicks ass in four wheeling and is a pain
in the ass when driving on the street. Personally I wouldnt pay the extra for the stock units as they only last for a
little while when needed and they are as expensive to maintain as buying a new locker.

George Croll
EPA-OAR-ARD
(202)564-0162
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:43:28 -0500
From: GEORGE CROLL
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Dealer Allocation - Top Secret? -Reply -Reply

My point is the dealer will not sell his on the
lot vehicles at a loss. He should give you a deal on a New
order, he has no $$$ tied up in it.

Everyone should know that a dealer makes money even if he sells you a truck at his cost. Hers's how. The cost a
dealer shows you is his invoice, the invoice includes the cost of the truck, any of the local advertisment costs FDAP
or whatever, and shipping and destination charges. What the dealer does not tell you is that all automakers refund
some of this cost at the end of each quarter or year to the dealer to cover a dealers expenses. In the case of Ford I
think dealer "buyback" is 3%. So on my truck the dealer made the 100 over invoice I paid plus 3% of the invoice cost
of 24,600 which is $738 + 100 = $838. This really only covers a dealers overhead expenses which is mostly the
interest a dealer pays to have a vehicle on his lot. The longer a vehicle remains on the lot the more it costs the dealer
because he has taken out a loan to buy the car and he is paying interest on that loan. In my case the truck had been
on the lot only 2 days and it made sense for the dealer to sell "low" and order another vehicle. As I said before I
went to several dealers befor I purchased my truck. Some dealers were adament that a SD could not be sold for
less than 2000 over invoice but they were lying. Also note that my SD was one of only 3 on the lot.
George Croll
EPA-OAR-ARD
(202)564-0162
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:43:02 -0500
From: GEORGE CROLL
Subject: FTE 97up - Fwd: Ford Truck Enthusiasts post -Reply

I had a similar debate not so long ago. One of the most helpful resources I found was the vehicle pricing in the
www.carpoint.com website. You can build a virtual truck with any combination of accesories. this site lists both teh
MSRP (sticker price) and the dealer cost (invoice) I found this to be most helpful. Here is what you will find on these
three vehicles, all 4x4. The SD F-250 and the F-150 are nearly identical in price when identically equipped. The
same F-350 SD will be about 600 to 1000 more I think. The Ranger is much less expensive than either and really
can't be compared. Remember also that the F-350 SD has a harsher ride than the F-250 SD due to the stiffer
springs required. I think my F-250 SD rides pretty close to the a 150 but doesnt handle or brake as well. The SD bed
capacity is much greater than a F-150 and the towing is 30% greater or so better than the 150. I chose a F-250 SD
as the best compromise for my purposes. I tow my jeep on a trailer to the mountains several times a year and
wanted the towing power of a V-10. (V-10 is only a 300 dollar option by the way) My commute is only 4 miles a day
so gas was not a consideration but I am getting about 10 mpg. I also like the simplicity of the Dana 50 front and the
good 10.25 rear which are much stronger than the F-150 running gear as well as easier to work on. I have also
heard good things about the new automatic in the SD trucks as opposed to the previous automatic which had trouble
handling the power of the PSD. I think this older less durable tranny is still in the F-150 models, but it is only mated to
the 5.4l so who knows. Finally note that the 5.4l V-8 in the current year F-150 has 35 more hp and better torque
than the same engine in the SD according to the literature. I could never figure this out and anyone who knows why
let me know. Also note that the PSD gets much better mileage than any of the gas engines and has easily twice the
usable torque for towing, it's also a $4000 option.

Here is how I would class these vehicles

Ranger, good for commuting and a capable off road vehicle out of the box. Easy for the wife or kids to drive. Don't
think of towing anything larger than a jet ski. Might be able to get Ally McBeal into the back of an extracab with a
shoehorn. Could move an apartment in about 1000 trips. Made by Mazda I think.

F-150, ok commuter, better visibility and safety than the Ranger. Has IFS system which rides nice but will definitly be
weaker than solid axle and more expensive to lift or fix. Much better vehicle for the wife or kids than the SD. Good
occasional tow or hauling platform depends on engine. Good multipurpose vehicle for a family with supercab.

SD F-350. Wife might not like it. Bad commuter especially with V-10. good choice if you plan on keeping the vehicle
for 200,000 miles and like to do you own service. Best work truck by far. Best tow platform by far. Nees better
tires and a locking diff to be a very capable off-road vehicle. Best durability of all.

my $.02

good luck
George Croll
EPA-OAR-ARD
(202)564-0162
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:22:57 -0500
From: GEORGE CROLL
Subject: FTE 97up - allotment for 99psd -Reply

Going shopping now for best
financing, would like to hear about best deals people have gotten on
interest or leases.

financing on the net. got 7.44% from Nations Bank on the web only, zero down 100% financing on new. Went into
my local branch and they could only get 8.2 or so. The site is called car-finance.com. I was approved in about 2
days or less. Good job on the order. Being paitent pays off in green.
//ck

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George Croll
EPA-OAR-ARD
(202)564-0162
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:49:33 -0800
From: JJ Thomas
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: Ranger vs F150 vs SD 4x4

Wow, that was a page full. Thanks.

I have been checking out things at CARPOINT.COM. The rest of the story...
I currently have a 1998 Ranger SC XLT 4.0L 5sp auto 4x4. Real nice truck.
I drove it down to Phoenix and back, about 3000 miles in three weeks. I
enjoyed driving it. Handled real well, not a difficult drive. My father
drove it about 400 miles and hated it, said the wind blew him all over the
place. Dad just retired from pushing an 18-wheeler, btw. Overall I like
the Ranger. I am planning a cross country move, so a towing is on my list
of needs. I am also a Dejay so I need something that I can transport my
equipment with.

The reason for getting rid of the Ranger is that upon my return from
Phoenix, it spent 45 days in the Ford shop. They can replicate the
problem, but they cannot fix it. They have rebuilt the transmission,
replaced the drive shaft, replaced the transmission, replace the rear
differential, reprogrammed the computer and run more diagnostics on it than
I knew existed. Oh yeah, the problem is that the Ranger lurches when I
lightly accelerate and decelerate. It acts as though something in the
drive train is shifting. I am not heavy footed driver and I take good care
of my vehicles. The dealer has already agreed to replacing the Ranger and
is willing to go with a different truck, or Ford vehicle, if I want to pay
the MSRP difference between my Ranger and the other vehicle. I think that
is being fair. By switching it out this way I also pay taxes on just the
difference, which is about 8.5%. The MSRP on Ranger was 22,500. If I get
a SD for 30,000, I pay 7,500 plus $.16 a mile for my use. About $3000. So
I pay 10,500 out of my pocket and pay taxes on the $7,500 difference.
Verses paying taxes on $30,000 if I trade it in, or buy new.

My quandary is, do I get another Ranger, get a F-150 or get the F-350. For
what I do, the Ranger is fine. I do a little four wheeling, but not as
serious as I was several years ago. My only complaint against the Ranger
line is they need a bigger fuel tank. Power wise, the truck is great.
Rides nice. I just don't want to get another lemon...:-( I am also real
concerned about the new front suspension. I have also had problem with the
Pulse Lock hubs not engaging and disengaging properly.

At 10:43 02/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I had a similar debate not so long ago. One of the most helpful resources I
>found was the vehicle pricing in the www.carpoint.com website.
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 21:47:48 -0500
From: Ken Payne
Subject: FTE 97up - ADMIN: Archives are now searchable

Searchable archives are now on the web site. All 60+
megabytes of archives are searchable. Due to the
nature of searching, the archive results are email
address "harvester" resistant. You can only browse
the archives with search terms and harvesters are not
smart enough to do that.

Enjoy!

KePayne
Admin, Ford Truck Enthusiasts


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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:04:12 EST
From: RSnovi aol.com
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: Ranger vs F150 vs SD 4x4

In a message dated 99-02-20 20:55:00 EST, you write:

all depends on how much towing or putting things in the bed. I looks to me
like you need F 150.

RS
9sec93cobra
99 F250SD/SC/PSD/4x4


Date:99-02-20 20:55:00 EST
From:djjthomas seanet.com (JJ Thomas)
Sender:owner-97up-list ford-trucks.com
Reply-to:97up-list ford-trucks.com
To:97up-list ford-trucks.com

Wow, that was a page full. Thanks.

I have been checking out things at CARPOINT.COM. The rest of the story...
I currently have a 1998 Ranger SC XLT 4.0L 5sp auto 4x4. Real nice truck.
I drove it down to Phoenix and back, about 3000 miles in three weeks. I
enjoyed driving it. Handled real well, not a difficult drive. My father
drove it about 400 miles and hated it, said the wind blew him all over the
place. Dad just retired from pushing an 18-wheeler, btw. Overall I like
the Ranger. I am planning a cross country move, so a towing is on my list
of needs. I am also a Dejay so I need something that I can transport my
equipment with.

The reason for getting rid of the Ranger is that upon my return from
Phoenix, it spent 45 days in the Ford shop. They can replicate the
problem, but they cannot fix it. They have rebuilt the transmission,
replaced the drive shaft, replaced the transmission, replace the rear
differential, reprogrammed the computer and run more diagnostics on it than
I knew existed. Oh yeah, the problem is that the Ranger lurches when I
lightly accelerate and decelerate. It acts as though something in the
drive train is shifting. I am not heavy footed driver and I take good care
of my vehicles. The dealer has already agreed to replacing the Ranger and
is willing to go with a different truck, or Ford vehicle, if I want to pay
the MSRP difference between my Ranger and the other vehicle. I think that
is being fair. By switching it out this way I also pay taxes on just the
difference, which is about 8.5%. The MSRP on Ranger was 22,500. If I get
a SD for 30,000, I pay 7,500 plus $.16 a mile for my use. About $3000. So
I pay 10,500 out of my pocket and pay taxes on the $7,500 difference.
Verses paying taxes on $30,000 if I trade it in, or buy new.

My quandary is, do I get another Ranger, get a F-150 or get the F-350. For
what I do, the Ranger is fine. I do a little four wheeling, but not as
serious as I was several years ago. My only complaint against the Ranger
line is they need a bigger fuel tank. Power wise, the truck is great.
Rides nice. I just don't want to get another lemon...:-( I am also real
concerned about the new front suspension. I have also had problem with the
Pulse Lock hubs not engaging and disengaging properly.

At 10:43 02/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I had a similar debate not so long ago. One of the most helpful resources I
>found was the vehicle pricing in the www.carpoint.com website.
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:49:33 -0800
To: 97up-list ford-trucks.com
From: JJ Thomas
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: Ranger vs F150 vs SD 4x4
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Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 03:05:11 PST
From: "Greg Knust"
Subject: FTE 97up - Shift points change after alarm install

This sounds strange, but I had a python alarm installed today in my
F-350 (V-10, automatic, 4.30LS, 4x4 (no ESOF)) and driving it after the....


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