97up-list-digest Saturday, June 5 1999 Volume 02 : Number 150



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Ford Truck Enthusiasts - 1997 and Newer Trucks and Vans
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In this issue:

FTE 97up - Re: LPO
RE: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box
RE: FTE 97up - Petty Theft Annoyance
FTE 97up - DRW vs. SRW
Re: FTE 97up -Potatoes in the tailpipe--or Voice of Experience?
Re: FTE 97up -Potatoes in the tailpipe--or Voice of Experience?
Re: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box
RE: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box
Re: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box
RE: FTE 97up - Petty Theft Annoyance
Re: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box

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Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 06:10:29 -0400
From: Lee Haefele
Subject: FTE 97up - Re: LPO

What are "LPO" options, and how do you find out who is a commercial
dealer?
Lee Haefele
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Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:05:38 -0400
From: "D'Amelio, Stephen M."
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box

Someone wrote:

> The article I read stated that both manufacturers have been putting
> them in "some" of their cars/vehicles, starting fairly recently.
>
> Also, that the devices only hold :05 -- 5 seconds -- of information
> so that they can determine why a crash might have happened. The
> memory only holds :05 with the new constantly shoving the old out.
>
> They expect this to spread. . . . .
>
Actually, black boxes to collect crash data, have been used
in indy cars for a few years. A joint venture between Ford and GM.

This technology was fully expected to be implemented for the street.
It has done a great deal of good in Indy racing safety. We Americans
are way too paranoid at times...

Steve D'Amelio
Systems Administrator
CVS/Pharmacy
1 CVS Drive
Woonsocket, RI 02895
401-765-1500 x3351 FAX 401-762-4607
mailto:smdamelio cvs.com http://www.ford-trucks.com//lc/lc.php?action=do&link=http://www.cvs.com







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Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:10:32 -0400
From: "D'Amelio, Stephen M."
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - Petty Theft Annoyance

> Charles what I do is tight them with a crescent wrench and that has
> seem to detour the kids from taken them.
>
>
I use a crescent wrench too. I hit them over the head with it. Definitely
deters them...
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Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:10:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Hutton
Subject: FTE 97up - DRW vs. SRW

I'm on the verge of ordering a 2000 F-350 and have
nailed down all the pieces except the rear axle. I
plan to get a Lariat PSD/CC/LWB.

My wife and I plan to put a self-contained
(toilet/shower) camper on it, so load capacity is an
issue. It's also possible down the road that the
desire for adventure will give way to the need for
comfort and the camper will give way to a 5th wheel.

A DRW would add some of the load carrying capacity
lost by getting a Crew Cab, would provide added
stability in windy conditions and would, of course,
add a measure of safety if a rear tire blew out.

The obvious disadvantage is the added width of the
vehicle. That added to the length of a CC/LWB will not
make parking more enjoyable. Also, having recently
towed a 25' Mighty Mover trailer behind a friend's
dually from San Diego to Denver and back, I know first
hand that staying in your own lane requires a little
more attentiveness than driving an SRW (BTW: crawling
up some of those passes at 25 mph with the small block
V-8 sold me on the PSD). On the plus side, other than
having to be careful not to stray out of my lane and
having to be cognizant of the extra body width when
backing up, it wasn't much different than driving an
SRW.

I also assume the money spent on tires over time will
be somewhat greater on a DRW and gas mileage might be
somewhat less, probably fairly minor negatives but,
again, these are just assumptions on my part.

This decision wouldn't be so important for someone who
trades up every few years. However, our approach has
been to keep our vehicles as long as they're
serviceable and I'd expect a well-maintained 350 PSD
to easily last 10-15 years. It we aren't happy with
the choice, we're more likely to live with it than to
throw $5k-$10k out the window by trading it in a year
later, so getting it right the first time would be
nice.

I'd appreciate any comments--from those of you who
know--on the advantages and disadvantages of DRWs.

Terry


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?

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Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 08:52:15 -0700
From: William Street
Subject: Re: FTE 97up -Potatoes in the tailpipe--or Voice of Experience?

Chris Patrick wrote:

> [snip]
> it was blind stupid luck it wasnt a ford, as in those days i was 150% a GM
> fan, as every one of my
> fathers company cars was a P.O.S. when i was growing up. several LTD's, a
> Taurus, and a thunderchicken.. all
> 70's and 80's vehicles. in 1986 his company switched fleet buyers to a local
> chevy dealership, and all the problems
> went away.. to the tune of a significant reduction in fleet downtime...

Probably less a 'Ford' problem than the fact that most of the 70's - 80's
vehicles were crap - the 86-88 time frame is about when the quality (at least
for Ford) started to dramatically improve.

Bill



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Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:53:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Douglas R. Floyd"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up -Potatoes in the tailpipe--or Voice of Experience?

> Probably less a 'Ford' problem than the fact that most of the 70's - 80's
> vehicles were crap - the 86-88 time frame is about when the quality (at least
> for Ford) started to dramatically improve.

I really think that from about 1973-1988, the domestic automakers were
reeling from inflation, Ralph Nader, and the trend for people to buy
rice (as Japanese cars were small, and tin cans were the trend).


>
> Bill
>
>
>
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>


- --
Douglas R. Floyd |
| Quote coming soon.
Disclaimer: |
I speak for myself, not my employer.
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Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 12:11:38 -0600
From: Alan Bowes
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box

As Robert mentioned, certain types of data could certainly be stored that could
represent many years of a vehicle's operation. This opens up a lot of potential
cans of worms, as well as the potential for providing useful information.

For example, a chip could record how many times you exceeded some recommended
RPM, or how many times you drove over 85 MPH, etc. Even though you might have
had some valid reason (such as emergency situations) to do this, it does seem to
have the potential for causing a warranty issue.

As long as the information is only suited for troubleshooting, I like the idea.
However, the "black box" pre-crash information issue does raise some warning
flags on the privacy front. I haven't formed a solid opinion on this yet, but
it's worth thinking about.

In terms of storing pre-crash information, the memory burden would be extremely
high, and given today's memory technology, the storable data time period would
be quite low. Here's why: To get accurate and useful pre-crash data from the
"black box," researchers would require hundreds (or thousands?) of data points
per second (with associated timing information) to create accurate
speed/deceleration curves for the second or two preceding a crash. Such high
data density would quickly fill up available memory, so I suspect that what the
black box's chip does is to store 100 percent of the speed pulses or rate
calculations and constantly refresh a buffer that is capable of containing a few
seconds' worth of information. If the air bag goes off, it cuts off any
additional data entry so that the pertinent information is not lost.

Alan


RAMWORKER aol.com wrote:

> As computer memory has gotten cheaper, more of this type of thing
> is happening. I can tell you that in the "big" trucks, the computer has
> a *lot* of memory, in fact, it has room for years of data. I mean everything
> the computer monitors, speed, RPM, all the gauge data, the whole nine
> yards. No more telling your local Ford dealer that you were just driving
> along in your V8 Mustang, minding your own business, when the engine
> just blew up for no reason at all! They'll know, if not now, soon, what was
> actually going on with your vehicle, warrantee fraud is going to be much
> harder to perpetrate. The possibility also exists for the manufacturers to
> defraud us with these computers, they could give it instructions to erase
> data that might be useful to you in a warrantee claim. "1984" is a little
> slow to arrive, but it's definitely on it's way. When OBD-3 gets here,
> Katy, bar the door!
>
> Best Regards,
> Robert
>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:43:25 -0400
From: "D'Amelio, Stephen M."
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box

Alan said:

> In terms of storing pre-crash information, the memory burden would be
> extremely
> high, and given today's memory technology, the storable data time period
> would
> be quite low. Here's why: To get accurate and useful pre-crash data from
> the
> "black box," researchers would require hundreds (or thousands?) of data
> points
> per second (with associated timing information) to create accurate
> speed/deceleration curves for the second or two preceding a crash. Such
> high
> data density would quickly fill up available memory, so I suspect that
> what the
> black box's chip does is to store 100 percent of the speed pulses or rate
> calculations and constantly refresh a buffer that is capable of containing
> a few
> seconds' worth of information. If the air bag goes off, it cuts off any
> additional data entry so that the pertinent information is not lost.
>
>
The "crash data black box" I saw in a race car was not intended for use in
every (race) car. After a crash,
if it was discovered that a design error would likely cause a specific
injury (head trauma, broken feet,
etc.) then the car was re-designed. This is why I don't think the passenger
vehicle "black box" is
intended for general use. I believe that Ford/GM are (hopefully) gathering
data for design feedback.
The number of sensors alone that this box required (on Indy cars at least)
would seem to make it
cost prohibitive as a general feature. Car manufacturers don't like to spend
one extra nickel on
a car unless they see it return ten-fold. I doubt that the few people who
red-line their engines
(and subsequently place a warranty claim) would justify the cost of a
"watch-dog" computer,
but I could be wrong!

Steve

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Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:44:07 -0500
From: "Karl Nyhus"
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box

> Stephen wrote:
> We Americans are way too paranoid at times...


And that wouldn't have anything to do with, among other things, the fact
that almost all purchases today are trackable electronically through checks
or credit cards; that the mandatory reporting level for cash transactions,
which was $10,000, very nearly became $100 recently; that a company's e-mail
on their own computers can be used against them in court; that records of
gun ownership by law-abiding private citizens are often kept in violation of
the law; that there really is no anonymity on the Internet; or that what
little privacy we have left is rapidly disappearing into large public and
private databases?

Today, a little "paranoia" seems a healthy thing....

> Stephen also wrote:
> I use a crescent wrench too. I hit them over the head
> with it. Definitely deters them...

Stephen, I admire your humor and ability to tackle a problem from a somewhat
unexpected angle.

Karl Nyhus, Minneapolis, MN--1997 Pacific Green Ford F-150 SuperCab XL, SB,
4.6L V8, 4WD, 5-speed, 3.08, LT255/70R16D BFG All-Terrain T/A on steel,
Better Built toolbox, Line-X spray-in liner, rust-proofed, undercoated

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 19:01:33 -0700
From: JJ Thomas
Subject: RE: FTE 97up - Petty Theft Annoyance

Yeah, but you have to catch them and with child abuse laws being what they
are, you have to make sure nobody else is around. ...especially with a
camcorder!



At 09:10 06/04/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>> Charles what I do is tight them with a crescent wrench and that has
>> seem to detour the kids from taken them.
>>
>>
>I use a crescent wrench too. I hit them over the head with it. Definitely
>deters them...
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 19:07:07 -0700
From: JJ Thomas
Subject: Re: FTE 97up - Re: FTE 97up black box

I have some bad news. If you use a credit card or write a check; if you
use a computer at work you have pretty much given up your privacy. Cable
TV wants to be able to transmit from those converter boxes, guess what
information they want to send and to whom they want to send it too. You
know that pay check you get. How many people do think get copies of your
wage report? Ever get a pre-approved credit card? Guess where they got
that information from?



At 12:11 06/04/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>As Robert mentioned, certain types of data could certainly be stored that
could
>represent many years of a vehicle's operation. This opens up a lot of
potential
>cans of worms, as well as the potential for providing useful information.
>
>For example, a chip could record how many times you exceeded some recommended
>RPM, or how many times you drove over 85 MPH, etc. Even though you might have
>had some valid reason (such as emergency situations) to do this, it does
>seem to
>have the potential for causing a warranty issue.
>
>As long as the information is only suited for troubleshooting, I like the
idea.
>However, the "black box" pre-crash information issue does raise some warning
>flags on the privacy front. I haven't formed a solid opinion on this yet, but
>it's worth thinking about.
>
>In terms of storing pre-crash information, the memory burden would be
extremely
>high, and given today's memory technology, the storable data time period would
>be quite low. Here's why: To get accurate and useful pre-crash data from the
>"black box," researchers would require hundreds (or thousands?) of data
points
>per second (with associated timing information) to create accurate
>speed/deceleration curves for the second or two preceding a crash. Such high
>data density would quickly fill up available memory, so I suspect that
what the
>black box's chip does is to store 100 percent of the speed pulses or rate
>calculations and constantly refresh a buffer that is capable of containing a
>few
>seconds' worth of information. If the air bag goes off, it cuts off any
>additional data entry so that the pertinent information is not lost.
>
>Alan
>
>
>RAMWORKER aol.com wrote:
>
>> As computer memory has gotten cheaper, more of this type of thing
>> is happening. I can tell you that in the "big" trucks, the computer has
>> a *lot* of memory, in fact, it has room for years of data. I mean everything
>> the computer monitors, speed, RPM, all the gauge data, the whole nine
>> yards. No more telling your local Ford dealer that you were just driving
>> along in your V8 Mustang, minding your own business, when the engine
>> just blew up for no reason at all! They'll know, if not now, soon, what was
>> actually going on with your vehicle, warrantee fraud is going to be much
>> harder to perpetrate. The possibility also exists for the manufacturers to
>> defraud us with these computers, they could give it instructions to erase
>> data that might be useful to you in a warrantee claim. "1984" is a little....

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